In this episode, Michelle Moseley joins the show to discuss religious trauma and healing from spiritual wounds. Sadly, religious trauma often goes unaddressed and unrecognized because many people don’t think it fits into what typical trauma looks like. Michelle explains how to recognize religious trauma and spiritual abuse. Then, Michelle dives into the impact of purity culture and how that ties into religious trauma. Tune in as we chat about abusive beliefs around eternity, leaving a group practice for private practice, and continuing telehealth after Covid.
Meet Michelle Moseley
I’m a North Carolina native and grew up near the center of the state. I spent time in the Triad for college and through my 20s, and moved back toward the Triangle in 2017.
I worked in non-clinical mentorship roles with youth and young adults in various capacities for 10+ years after completing my undergraduate studies. Many of those I mentored shared their struggles with me based on the relationship we had formed, and I began realizing the need for additional training in helping these folks navigate mental health concerns.
One of my mentorship roles involved working in vocational ministry with college students. Through my own experience with spiritual abuse and religious trauma, in addition to my growing desire to serve folks in a different way, I made some tough decisions that took me in a new direction. In 2013, I decided to make a career shift by pursuing a graduate degree in mental health counseling and beginning a path of providing support to folks in a different way.
Religious Trauma Often Goes Unaddressed and Unrecognized
Michelle identifies as a survivor of religious trauma. She went through her own experience and her own healing experience. There are a lot of people who have had traumatic experiences within a religion or had spiritual abuse. Unfortunately, this abuse doesn’t get addressed for various reasons. Sometimes, religious trauma doesn’t fit neatly into the package of what folks often think of as trauma. Michelle recognizes the power of having a safe place to ask questions and to have your religious trauma recognized. There is a reason your brain and body respond the way that they do after trauma.
Defining Religious Trauma and Spiritual Abuse
Trauma isn’t necessarily about the event. Instead, trauma is about how the nervous system responds. Religious trauma it’s something that happens in a religious context that your nervous system is responding to. Sometimes it’s not in a structured religious setting, but it is around spiritual things that the abuse happens. For instance, it can be an attack on autonomy or lack of consent with someone of spiritual authority. Also, it’s essential to realize that this abuse can be intentional or unintentional. For some folks, that idea of adverse experiences fits better that they don’t necessarily feel like their experience was abuse, and they wouldn’t use the word trauma.
The Impact of Purity Culture Trauma
There’s a lot of focus on modesty and the concept of virginity. In religion, many people speak about keeping yourself pure for a future spouse. There can be a lot of rules around clothing and your natural desires. When you start to notice other people sexually and have desires, those can be shunned in a purity culture. With religion, many teens are taught to shut those feelings down. Shutting down these feelings can be very traumatic because they have a feeling that they are being told is sinful. Michelle sees this theme often when working with people who have experienced religious trauma.
Beliefs Around Eternity Can Lead To Trauma
Michelle’s work has been with folks who have come out of evangelical Christianity. Many belief systems talk about eternity. In these beliefs, eternity will be like hell if you are not good enough or don’t follow a particular path. Kids are taught to act a certain way from a young age, and if they don’t, they will burn forever. As adults, these people still have an intense fear of eternity and what that means. Often, there will be a fear of disapproval or not living up to the standard of God. Unfortunately, there is a culture of fear, and many people walk around on eggshells.
Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley Gordon Brewer Michelle Mosley
Okay. Hi, my name is Michelle Mosley. I'm excited to be on the podcast today the practice of therapy podcast with Gordon. And today we're gonna be talking about collective trauma and trauma treatment.
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so happy for you to get to hear from Michelle Mosley and Michelle. Welcome. Well, thank
you so much for having me.
Yes. And as we were just kind of catching up. And just, you know, talking about what we're going to talk about here before the recording, I realized that this, this particular episode might be a dual purpose episode. And then I think it will be good for therapists to hear about this particular topic, but also the public in general. So if you're hearing this, depending on which one of my podcasts you're hanging this on, we're going to cover a broad range here. But Michelle, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?
Well, yeah, thanks for giving me the opportunity to share a little bit. I practice telehealth in North Carolina, I'm in private practice. And working as a therapist is actually my second career. I'm in my mid 30s, went back to grad school in and worked in community mental health for a while, then I transitioned to working in a group practice. And I realized that I really enjoy working with folks who have had complex trauma, and how that is affecting their lives now, how that may be causing problems for them, whether that's with regulating emotions, or their relationships, and particularly in the area of folks that have had religious trauma, or some type of of adverse experience in a religious setting. So I've been in private practice for about four years now. And I actually went solo earlier this year. And so like I said, I provide telehealth in North Carolina. And I'm just really excited to be here today and share some about that with you.
Yes, yes, there's a lot a lot for us to kind of cover here because one of the things that I guess is, as a lot of folks have experienced and is that telehealth really almost became the norm during during COVID. Were you did you start your practice up mainly during the COVID pandemic, or it was your solo practice.
I did start my solo practice, I had been working with a group practice, I had always done in person therapy. And then March of 2020, everything changed. At first, I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about telehealth, you know, I was used to being in the room with folks. And I've just found that there is a segment of the population that telehealth works really well for it opens up who you can see, because a person who specializes in whatever you're struggling with may not be in your geographical location. Right. But if you can connect via telehealth, um, that might work better for you. You don't have to feed you're in a commute. So I've just found that I really enjoy it, which was a surprise to me.
Well, the other thing, too, is as being being from North Carolina, myself, but but also the fact that you're licensed in North Carolina means that you can you can serve anybody in the state through telehealth. So. And that's true for for any clinician that is, you know, providing services, they can provide services wherever they are, whatever state they're in. So
yeah. And in North Carolina, there's definitely areas that are, you know, very rural, there's not a lot of therapists available, you know, being able to work with anybody in the state. Yes. Helpful.
Yeah. So is one of the things that I know, you and I were talking about is just this whole concept of religious trauma. How did you land on that?
Some of it is from my own experience. I do identify as a survivor of religious trauma, and my previous work actually was in the realm of religion. And so went through my own experience my own healing experience. Recognize that there are a lot of people who have had trauma experiences within religion had spiritual abuse. had adverse experiences, maybe they wouldn't label them as trauma but and that it hadn't really been addressed, that it didn't fit neatly into the package of what folks often think of as trauma. I think that is changing. And so that's kind of what drew me to it is that my own experience, and therapy working through my, my own stuff. I just really recognize the power of having a safe place to ask the questions and to have it recognize that, okay, this is a traumatic experience, there's no reason that your your brain and your body are responding the way that they are.
Right. Right. So yeah, so folk, for folks that might not be familiar with that, that that term religious trauma, or spiritual trauma or spiritual abuse, those kinds of things, how do you define?
Well, I really look at trauma as how our nervous systems respond, that regardless of what type of trauma it is, it's not necessarily about the event. It's about how our nervous systems respond to the event. And so I think that's one important thing to know. And with religious trauma, it's something that happens in a religious context that your nervous system is responding to. And so there's often lots of additional things tied up in it. Because it may be your belief system, it may be your community, your family, your whole identity, that is wrapped up in this experience, and this reaction that your nervous system is having. And so I mean, when spiritual abuse, sometimes it's not in a structured religious setting, but it is around spiritual things that the abuse happens. It is, can be an attack on autonomy, lack of consent. And it happens with someone who is in spiritual authority. And I think it's important to realize that it could be intentional or not intentional. You know, and then for some folks that that idea of adverse experiences fits better that they don't necessarily feel like their experience was abuse. They wouldn't necessarily use the word trauma, but they know they've had some experiences within religion or spiritual setting that didn't fit well with them that have affected them. And that have caused them some issues.
Sure, sure. Not to put your two minute show on the spot, can you give some examples of that of those things,
your one big thing that some folks may be familiar with is the audio purity culture. That some of them that often a lot of fundamentalist setting is really focused on. And for folks who might not be familiar with that term, there's a lot of focus on the idea of modesty and the concept of virginity, and keeping yourself pure, or a future spouse. And sometimes there can be a lot of rules around clothing, any natural desires that you might have, like, particularly in adolescence, when your hormones are flowing, and you're starting to notice other people sexually and have desires, those can be kind of shunned, and purity culture, that you're just supposed to shut them down. And for some folks, that experience is very traumatic, but they're left with this feeling of, okay, my body is having this desire or this reaction, and I'm being told that I'm bad or that I'm sinful, because I'm having that reaction. So that that's one place that a lot of folks find or would say they experience religious trauma.
Right, right. Yeah. And I know, you know, I think other what I think of too is that you know, another nother area that gets probably people can experience trauma is for folks that are LGBTQ or people that are not, don't don't consider themselves heterosexual. There can be a lot of spiritual abuse and, and religious abuse around that particular issue. And that they're made to, you know, grow up feeling guilty again, for those those natural desires in that natural way of, of being and it just can create a lot of problems. Yeah,
very much though. Numbers, a lot of, you know, you start recognizing what's Maybe I am attracted to the same sex or I have different feelings about my gender than what my belief system has told me is, quote unquote, appropriate. And, you know, that can be very traumatic, because who do you talk to? Who are your trusted, trusted adults to go to round as you're doing all about identity work? Developing as a person?
Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing that comes to mind for me, Michelle, is that I think a lot of times, excuse me, a lot of times with within religious culture, some of them, there is a lot of fear based, a lot of fear around, you know, belief and that kind of thing. But, so you want to speak to that a little bit?
Sure. Yeah. I mean, a lot of my work has been with folks that have come out of evangelical Christianity situation. So some of what I said may not apply to other types of belief. But a lot of belief systems have something there that is, you know, there is an eternity, if you are not good enough, or you don't believe the right thing, or you don't follow this particular particular path, then eternity is going to be something like hell, that, you know, and that can be described lots of different ways, depending on the faith background. But you think about a young child being told from that young age, there's an expectation that you behave a certain way, or that you do certain things. And if you don't, after you die, you're going to burn forever, or you're going to be tormented forever. And I've definitely worked with folks that, you know, as adults, there's still this strong fear of eternity. And what does that mean? And, and how did they deconstruct that and deconstruction is, is kind of a buzzword right now. But it really does apply to a lot of folks that are, even if they weren't very involved with the belief system, particularly growing up in the south of Canada, it can see Do you know, you've probably heard it, and so that can really sit there. And, you know, there's this fear of hail, there's a fear of disapproval of leaders or of God not living up to, to that standard.
Yeah, it's, yeah, as we were talking about, it's just a whole culture of fear. And that people will, in many ways, feel like they're walking on eggshells to some degree around around all of those issues. And, and, you know, part of it, particularly for children wanting to please their parents, and, you know, if they do if they believe this certain way, or do this certain thing, then they're going to, somehow or another, get their approval of others. And, and that kind of thing. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So and then, the other thing, too, is just, you know, the whole power dynamic that can happen within religious communities, and that, you know, maybe it's a pastor or her church leader, or whatever you're supposed to be somehow another beholden to them. And that, you know, and they can, they can abuse that power with, with people.
Yeah, yes, I can often do settings where there's one person who is the leader of this church or this group. And there's not really other people that can speak into what's happening, or that the leader kind of runs ideas, boss, that they are unilaterally making decisions. And I think that can be dangerous in any insight, right? I agree. Yeah. And even as you were speaking about fear, and one thing I thought about was the fear that can come up with gender roles and interaction between the genders. And I'm gonna speak in binary terms, because a lot of religions do speak in binary terms of male and female. And there can be a lot of fear about what interaction with one another mean. You know, and a lot of, I think, almost fear of women, that in a lot of places women are not allowed to, to speak, they're not allowed to be the leader. They are kind of relegated to the side roles, maybe working with children, or things that that don't have as much voice or respect in the setting. And there can also be this thought process of some people may be familiar with what's often called the Billy Graham role. He apparently had this rule that he would never spend time alone. with another woman or like have a conversation with a woman other than his wife, and I've known men who were in leadership and ministries, and they would not interact or converse with the women in their, you know, in their congregation, which is very divisive. You miss out on a whole lot of input and wholeness of humanity.
Yes, yes. In my experience and in, in my in church upbringing, I was sharing with Michelle, that my dad was a pastor of a fairly large Baptist Church when I was growing up. And, you know, and even now in my involvement in the Episcopal Church, you know, kind of a, say, this kind of, kind of tongue in cheek, but the actually the women run the church, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's really there. In most in most church settings, or, you know, behind the scenes, they're the ones that make everything happen. Yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah. So
you're, that's another way that fear plays out. Okay, I can't accept your full humanity. Right.
Right. Right. So in your inner clinical work, Michelle, what's kind of the approach that you like to use and working with people around these issues?
Yeah, for me, it is really centered on the particular client that I'm working with. I work with some folks who are questioning some things in their belief system, but also, it's very important to them, and they want to still be a part of it. I work with some folks who are in the process of really deconstructing, and moving away from whatever belief system, they may have any, you know, some people want to find a type of spirituality that fits for them, that they feel it's free from whatever the issues were within their previous system of belief. And other people are at a point where they have nothing to do with any kind of system of belief. So a big part of it is meeting them where they are, you know, there, I never tried to push my agenda on them. You know, I want them to figure out, what is your goal, what is going to make you feel healthier, be in a better place. And we can work toward that. And I think that it's with religious trauma, in particular, it's very important to understand how wrapped up the external and the internal can be. Because there can be these pieces of what happened in the group or the system, what you saw what was done to you. And then also these internal pieces of, maybe you are the perpetrator of some of the things because of the belief system, there can be feelings of completely losing your community, losing your identity, some folks lose their family, if they choose to not be part of the belief system anymore. And a lot of really identity formation happening, regardless of the age of the person. Because often they missed out on that that adolescent time of really exploring. Okay, who am I actually, you know, especially around sexuality and gender, right. So that's often something that comes up.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it can, it can create a, the term that comes to mind for me is what I would call toxic, toxic shame. And at a bar that I'm borrowing that from John Bradshaw, who wrote a book, years ago called The healing the shame that binds you is the book that comes to mind. So just thinking about that. So Well, Michelle, one of the thing is,
I'm going to let me pause here.
Okay, here's my, I'm still recording. But let's pause here and talk. I want to shift gears. So this is going to be more practice of therapy, kind of a topic here. So tell folks a little bit about your decision to leave a group practice and go into solo practice and how all that transpired for you.
Yeah. So I think that working within a group practice was for me, it was a great experience to kind of get my feet wet get a feel for what does it look like to work in a setting outside of community mental health or college counseling center because I had too much to achieve previous experience. Get this. And as I was in the group practice, I was there for about three years. And there were just things that I realized about the type of control that I wanted to have in being able to determine if I was a good fit for clients or not. You know, I think it's so important to have that freedom to let let someone know, like, I'm not the best person to work with what's going on with you. But I know these other therapists who specialize in this, and they're gonna give you better services, and I can have that freedom to do that, which wasn't really a part of my experience within the group practice, right. And just the way some of the systems ran, I wanted to do things a little bit differently. And so that was really my kind of catalyst for I think I'm gonna pursue solo practice, right? And then when everything went telehealth with the pandemic, that kind of just pushed me a little Yes, a little sooner.
Right, right. Yeah, I was gonna. I was I was curious to know, too. How did you land? You know? And obviously, you kind of answered the question. How did you land on sticking? Well, maybe this maybe it's not such an obvious question, answer. But how did you decide to just continue telehealth versus going back to in person kind of thing?
Yeah, I won't say that I'll never go into in person. I feel like probably at some point, I will incorporate some in person services back into my work. But for right now, the all of those benefits of telehealth that we had talked about, you know, the lack of community, the ability for people to access services, even if they're not, right, they're in their own tiny home. All of those things, were very appealing to me. And then also just being realistic about COVID. And where we are, and, you know, I have some folks in my personal life that are immunocompromised, and I want to be more aware of who I'm interacting with, so that I can interact with them. So that played a part as well.
Yes, yes. Well, well, Allah, I love hearing your story. And I love the work that you're doing. I think it's much needed. And it's it's a very important niche. And I think, as you alluded to, earlier, being in the South, as I like to say, we're in the belt buckle, we're at the belt buckle of the Bible Belt here where we are, particularly in Tennessee, in North Carolina, there's, you know, most, most folks tend to lean towards kind of the conservative, evangelical kind of way of seeing things. And I think being able to recognize that there are other ways of following a faith journey that are not necessarily in that realm. And even in my work clinically, in folks, knowing that I'm an clergy person as well, those questions come up for people and that they struggle with those, those internal beliefs, and maybe some of the messages they were handed when they were growing up. And it can, as you've recognized, can create some trauma for people.
Yeah. And one of the neat things that I've seen is, there have been a few clergy people, folks who are leaders in ministry, that have reached out that I've been able to talk with, they recognize I'm in a position of power, I could very easily be causing trauma or some type of abuse, just someone, what are some things to be aware of? What are some kind of checks and balances to put in place around these things? And that I really enjoy that as well, because I'm like, that is someone who is, quote, unquote, on the inside and willing to make changes.
Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Michelle, I want to be respectful of your time. And I really have enjoyed our conversation. tell folks how they can reach out to you if they would like to and how they can get in touch with you.
Thanks again for having me on. I really enjoyed our conversation as well. Folks, thank you in touch with me via my website. So my website is Michelle F mostly.com. So that's M i c h e l l e s, m o s e l ey.com. They can also follow me on Instagram. My handle there is therapy underscore via underscore Michelle. And those are some ways to get in touch with me If they're in North Carolina, and they're interested in working with me, they can definitely reach out via even those methods and I'll be happy to
connect with them. Awesome. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes in the show summary for people to access that easily. Well, Michelle, I really enjoyed as I say, I had really enjoyed our conversation because I think this is a really important topic for a lot of folks. So thanks again for joining me and hopefully we'll do this again here soon. Yeah,
thanks for having me.
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