Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome to the podcast, and I'm happy to have back on this episode.
Brandy Mabra welcome Brandy.
Brandy Mabra: Thank you. Thank you. I'm
Gordon Brewer: so glad to have her. She was, she, uh, if you want to go back to episode number 2 48, we were just talking about, it's been a lot longer than we thought since we. Since we chatted with each other, so, but, uh, Brandy, as I start with everyone, tell folks how, who you are and how you've landed, where you've landed.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah. I have almost two decades worth of healthcare, business and leadership experience. So I have been on what I call. All the sides of healthcare. So I've been on the private practice side, the corporate side, the payer side, the, you know, now entrepreneurial side. And so I've been able to take all that expertise and now help others.
You know, with specifically on, on the business side of, of the practice, I always get asked if I am a practitioner or if I am a therapist or I'm a clinician and I have a strong clinical background come from a family of healthcare. Um. So I'm very, very familiar and love the field, but also know that it can present some challenges, especially as you're growing and scaling businesses.
So that's where, that's my link.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, that's my
Brandy Mabra: link.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. And, and Brandy brings just a lot of expertise that I think we can draw from. And one of the things that we were chatting about before we started recording, just how much there's so much buzz about AI and whether or not it's gonna.
Hurt our professions and that kind of thing. And Brandy just, uh, has some great stories about that. And one I know that she mentioned was just around Salesforce. You wanna say more about that? Uh, and maybe tell folks what Salesforce is if they aren't sure what that, what that is.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah, so Salesforce is a huge company.
I know it specifically from when I was with a specific payer. We would have to go around and talk to different practices, and so it's more or less on the sales side, you like A CRM, where you're able to document things too, but it's more tech based. And recently I was reading about how they laid off 4,000 employees to move to more of an AI model, which makes sense.
You know, you want to try to be profitable, efficient, effective, all those things. However, the interesting thing is that they have decided that probably wasn't the best move. Mm-hmm. Because the reliability of actually having humans and just even the engagement from the human side is missing. So they are now having some regrets because they've lost money.
They thought that they were going gain money from profitability because of not having payroll, and now they're in process of losing money, um, more than what they thought that they would because of the migration over to ai. So I think when we think about it from a healthcare perspective, it's really interesting.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. From a, uh, ironically, their sales have gone down.
Brandy Mabra: Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Even though,
Brandy Mabra: yes.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right, yeah. Well, that's it. Yeah. And I think there's a, I think for a lot of us, there is a lot of angst around. The advent of ai. Um mm-hmm. You know, uh, I did a, a short YouTube video just about that. And I think one of the things is, is I think anytime change comes along, we tend to.
Tend to let our anxiety get the best of us around us. Yes. Those things about you even go back in history and you look at big changes that came along. You know, like the invention of the train, the invention of the automobile, cell phones, all of those kinds of things were big life changing things, um, that we all embrace now.
Brandy Mabra: Absolutely. Business has cycles, I always say. And so I think when you've been around it enough years, you know, even with me two decades, there's a lot that I've seen in the 20 plus years and there's ups and downs. And so even with. Innovation innovation's great. And, but you also, from a business perspective, you have to be careful as you're jumping onto almost what mm-hmm.
The latest, greatest, you don't wanna be what I call the blockbuster of business, or you don't wanna think where Amazon isn't going to come and actually take over. Because there's an interesting documentary with Jeff Bezos, um, about that very thing. He tried to talk to like Barnes and Noble, and he tried to talk to some of the existing companies and, he, they laughed at him. So that's the, mm-hmm. The biggest change would be the internet. And so I think from a business perspective, we have to pay attention to industry. We have to pay attention to what's happening now. So we can be smart business owners, but also we have to think about, especially from a leadership standpoint, what does this mean for this time next year?
And so, mm-hmm. Even with ai. There's tools, there's so many tools and, and you know, this time last year everybody was like, chat, GBT chat, GBT chat, GBT. And now everyone, we just had a conversation this past Tuesday about migration over to Claude. And so one of the things that I always say is be picky and make sure, especially if you have team for how you're bringing them in that conversation.
And then if there's a particular tool that you love. Maybe don't get so attached to it and maybe get attached mm-hmm. To the, to the workflow of it or get attached to what it can do. And then also think about if it goes out of business. Because all of these companies are truly, they're tech, they're tech companies, right?
So they're trying to mm-hmm. To race to the top. They're trying to make decisions that they think is best for really almost their bottom line. And just what's gonna help them get to a certain place in industry. But also what that means for us as we're continuing to scale and grow businesses is that that means that sometimes that tool won't be around, or maybe that tool could go out business or that tool might merge with another tool.
So when you think about that conversation, because that's what's happened in other. At other past cycles, then you have to be prepared for that. And so I think some people miss that piece because they get so excited about what a certain piece of software could do. Right.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's, I think it's important to remember, like you said, is there are cycles, and I think ultimately, um, particularly in our.
Our professions people really want that face-to-face
Brandy Mabra: mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Person to person contact rather than it being on a, a screen or virtually or, you know, that sort of thing. And so I think that's one of the things that, like that story you told about Salesforce, people are not wanting to necessarily interact with AI as much as they thought they did.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah, and you could tell, I mean, you can tell at this point in time too, um, in some of the conversation, who is using ai, who is doing things from more of an organic lens? And I think automation has been around for a long time. You know, that's not new. You know, and being able to have software help with just the day-to-day, that's not new, but how?
That we're using today. That's what's new, right? Mm-hmm. So we have to put the kitchen and pull from the past for what was this like before and what stayed? Mm-hmm. What didn't stay, and then how did it evolve? Mm-hmm. And so as you look throughout the years, there's some, like, I think about the implementation of EHR systems and going from paper charts, you know, and so with that.
Like, there were some tools that people were like, oh, this is the best tool. And then some of those tools aren't even around today because they couldn't survive certain economic cycles. Mm-hmm. Or they merged with somebody else, or they got bought out. Mm-hmm. Um, so you be, again, just mindful of it. Be excited about it.
Uh, be aware of it, but also think about it from a deeper lens. And I think sometimes people miss that part.
Gordon Brewer: A, as you've just kind, uh, obviously you've researched this a lot and thought a lot about it. What do you see as kind of the evolution of all of the AI things, particularly for therapists and counselors and that kind of thing?
Brandy Mabra: I think that, uh, it is an important conversation for people to be part of the change. Right? And I, and I love it because I know that there are some, some, even our clients are helping with the development of it thought processes. Um, I know that even with chat GBT, they're trying to do chat GBT Health. I don't know what's gonna happen with that, considering some of the things that are happening with them right now.
However, I, I don't think it will replace the human aspect of it by any means. I was also mm-hmm. Um, reading on just the next generation, so I have a son, he's 20 years old, and the next generation actually, there's almost too much of a good thing. And so because we've been, so to your point, what you're saying of we're missing that face-to-face inter like connection and being able to actually have real time.
Conversations. Mm-hmm. Then the next generation actually is being brought up more with that. So what does that mean? Mm-hmm. When we get to the virtual space, you know, years to come, so I, right. So I think when we think about healthcare, when we think about therapy, when we think about just those realtime conversations, I think there will always be, because this is, as soon as the virtual space opens.
I think there will be a combination of hybrid always. I think there will be the folks who want to do in-person and want that connection. And then there will be the person who maybe does virtual sometimes if that's something that the payer will continue to pay for. Mm-hmm. Because that conversation that's happening as well.
But I think at ultimately it will be a combination of both because the technology is there. I don't think it'll go anywhere, but I think how we use it will, will change and the frequency will change.
Gordon Brewer: I think what ai, you know, as I've thought about this, 'cause I, I use AI just about every single day.
Oh, every day. Some for, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, e even if you're doing just a Google search or using AI now. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, one of the things I've thought about is, is that what it will do is make, make our knowledge base well, it's already doing this, our knowledge base about things much more accessible.
Brandy Mabra: Yes.
Gordon Brewer: And that, and the organization of data, it can do that better than anything or anybody and that kind of thing. But like you said, the one thing it doesn't do is that face-to-face, human to human contact. And it can't, I can't imagine that it could ever mimic that because, you know, it tries even now, I mean it's mm-hmm.
You know, you ask CH GPTA question and it's just so friendly, you know, its response and tells you how, how great your question is and all that kinda thing. And so it's, you know, it's been programmed to do all of that. Yeah, but I, it still does, that still doesn't replace the human to human conduct.
Brandy Mabra: It doesn't, and I think about like a conversation that, that we are having, um, as a, as a group with, um, for private practice, CEO and how can you, incu, how can you incorporate some of the conversations that maybe clients are having, which at GPT and bringing in those things.
So I think about even, mm-hmm. The visit prior to to AI where you would Google something, you would be like, well, you know, I Googled X, Y, and Z and I think I'm dying. You know, because of, because of what's come across. Right. And so I think being smart with the interactions in, that's where the real time, like this is what it's telling you, but is it right?
Is it wrong? Especially with some of the hallucinations that are still happening. I think as time goes by it'll probably get smarter, but I think now is the time for foundational work. For, and especially again, going back to the team, other providers, like, what are you doing? What's the stance for the practice?
But then also how are you incorporating those AI conversations into like the everyday conversations that you're having? Because if you can meet where they're at, then I think that's a, that's where you can go deeper and definitely make some of those sessions stronger
Gordon Brewer: too. Right, yeah. Yeah.
So with, um. And thinking about what you do, brandy and, and just working with maybe larger practices and d different healthcare organizations over the years where do you see that we can make the best use of ai?
Brandy Mabra: I think with what exactly what you said, the organization structure of it. I think also again, like having po like policy and procedures around how the practice uses it, making sure that people understand paid versions from free versions, what you can put in, what you can't put in, um, those types of things.
But ultimately I think the in the weeds work is where it's gonna really shine. Um, and I think that's where it's shining now, but I think even when going back to the Salesforce conversation, you're still gonna need some type of director or some person to oversee it because automation is automation com.
Mm-hmm. Computers are computers and they can't. And so you need like checks and balances as you're working with AI and you need checks and balances with the team and how they're working with, uh, ai. Mm-hmm. And definitely from a patient perspective, you need to make sure that you have checks and balances, I believe.
Mm-hmm. When it comes to AI as well
Gordon Brewer: yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think another thing too is, is that, I got to maybe switch a little bit here. You know, one of the things that I think comes up is people going to, to AI to get advice for
Brandy Mabra: mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: And so that feels like a, a threat to therapist, not that we.
Give advice. I mean, it's, anybody that's that's in this field knows that you are not in the business of giving advice, but more of being partners and walking with people along the way and that kind of thing. But one, one of the things with that is that sometimes the advice isn't all that good.
Brandy Mabra: No, it's not.
Gordon Brewer: And so that's, uh, something, and I think too, people will I think that the fear of AI replacing therapists is, is, you know, they might be asking those questions, but ultimately they're. Still seeking out that human to human contact. Mm-hmm.
Brandy Mabra: Absolutely. 110%. I think all of us, um, within the healthcare space, especially, especially, especially from a practitioner standpoint, are safe.
Right? Because even, mm-hmm. Using where people, it still needs, again, that checks and balances, it's, and people still want that. That human to human connection, people still need to feel validated and understood and not to the expense of yes, like being a yes person. And even if you tell chat GPT, to be honest, it's still honest in a way that is still super, you know, nice and sometimes mm-hmm You need somebody to show up.
Truly that mirror and just to be honest. And so I, I think that it will never, and even if you, um, I'm sure you know this, just with everything that's happening in society and, and just the climate around us, economy, all of it, like there's a, now a big boom, there's an uptick when it comes to just the therapy piece and mental health and people mm-hmm.
Reaching out to. You know, needing services. Mm-hmm. So I think it's an exciting time. I think it's an exciting time for technology. I think it's an exciting time for, um, healthcare and I think it's, even with some of the challenges that we're facing, I think there's a huge opportunity for people to step up, and to be part of the change and to help for what the change is gonna look like even five years from now, 10 years from now, if they choose to.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah. And I think, I think too, um, one of the things that, uh, I think we can fall a trap into is not not listening to our clients and not listening to our patients.
Brandy Mabra: Yep.
Gordon Brewer: In a way of really getting to what they want for themselves as opposed to what we think's best for them.
Brandy Mabra: Yep.
Gordon Brewer: Kind of thing. Yeah,
Brandy Mabra: absolutely. Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Well, Brandy, what, uh, what are some other things in just your work? I know we've gotta be mindful of our time, but in the work that you've been doing with therapists and you know, people in the mental health fields, what are you seeing that there are their biggest challenges that you hear, that you help 'em with?
Brandy Mabra: I think right now because of some of the changes, um, you know, there is still the economy piece that is happening and so they're having to be more strategic about how they're scaling their practices. And I think for the ones who are doing really well, um, and what I see, it's because they're thinking outside the box, right?
Mm. And so they're thinking outside the box from a multidisciplinary standpoint. So I work with a lot of different credentials, which I feel really blessed to be able to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, but the ones who are profitable, the ones who are really having the most engaged teams, are the ones who are adding a level of sophistication to their practices outside of even just like one-on-one work.
Right. Or changing it up with the type of specialties that they're bringing into their practice in order to go deeper with the client. Mm-hmm. Um, and then also being. Some practices right now who are strictly private payer now, 'cause I work with global clients, um, are in the place of thinking about do I need to add in a payer?
So that conversation, just because of some of the things that are happening within economy. So the business acumen that you need today compared to a couple years ago is completely different. Right? And the leadership skills that you need today compared to even a couple of months ago, you know, as AI continues to mm-hmm.
To change is completely different, right? So, right.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Brandy Mabra: They're having to be more strategic, more intentional. More purposeful with how they're communicating, why are they doing certain things? And kind of gone are the days of let's put up something on psychology today and, you know, people are just gonna flood in, or let's put some on social media.
Um, there has to be more intention behind it. I think the other thing is being more involved online and offline. Uh mm-hmm. Uh, some folks are having to really do more boots on the ground. Conversations, partnerships, referral networks, build those things. And so I always think about. Just from when I first started, I'm like, oh, this is my world.
You know, this is like the old school way mm-hmm. Of, of doing things. The tried and true way of doing things. And that's what people are starting to find out.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And that brings us full circle around to that whole idea of the human to human contact, I think.
Brandy Mabra: Yep.
Gordon Brewer: The best referral services sources for any practice are those word of mouth.
You know, kinds of things and not depending on a. Social media algorithm to bring you up and people could connect with people that way. So it's just. Yeah, it's,
Brandy Mabra: yeah, I, I always say that if hosp big hospital systems with millions and millions and millions of dollars in resources out the yang, if they are sitting at like a baseball game with a table, or they're doing, you know, we're getting ready to go into warm weather like movies in the park, and they're having to have these conversations and us as private practice, you know, with private practices and businesses and small businesses, like, we have to do the same thing, right?
Mm-hmm. They're, mm-hmm. There's a recipe of success that's there too,
Gordon Brewer: well, this is, this is a, yeah. A fascinating conversation and then I know that we could probably spend all day mm-hmm. Talking about these things and it's really been very, uh, you know, the whole AI conversation and even, and we didn't even talk about this, tech companies getting into the mental health field, things like mm-hmm.
Better help talk space, those kinds of things. Or things that people see might see as a threat, but I think in the long run, people are gonna still go for that person to person contact.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even I read something with better help how people are getting frustrated because the, when we think about team engagement and buy-in, when you work for a big company like that, sometimes those things are missing.
So people are missing sessions, like the therapists or the practitioners aren't coming, they're not showing up, they're canceling, and you know, so because the team engagement is missing in some of, in some of those places, so. I think if you have a practice that is well run, I think if you have a practice where your team feels supported and is engaged and you are being a great leader, um, and definitely with that business savvy, I think honestly you'll, you're in the best position to do well in an environment like this, right.
Hundred 10%.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, it's, yeah the, in the whole workplace environment, I'm, uh, some, for some reason our conversation reminded me of this last time I went to the dentist. I, I had needed to change dentists because of my insurance stuff and that sort of thing. But anyway, the dentist I used to go to was more low tech.
They were just kind of. Kind of old school kind of dentist. And then I came to this new place and they had all the amazing tech stuff, you know, like 3D 3D imaging of your mouth and all of that kinda stuff. And you could just tell the people working there, the dental hygienists and dentists and everything, they were just having a great time with each other.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: And, um, you know, and it, and it reflect in the care that I got from that. So, I mean.
Brandy Mabra: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you have to embrace everything. Like, so you can't be stuck in the past, and you also need a really great and a team as well. Mm-hmm. So you have both and you can have that nice compliment.
Then you'll have exactly what you had at the dentist. So I love to hear that. I hope your visit went well.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, it went well. I had a good checkup. No cavities, so that's good. Yeah. So well, um, Brandy, tell folks how they can get in touch with you and. Some of the things that you offer.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah, absolutely. So they can find me on Instagram.
That's kind of my place to hang out. And also LinkedIn. I'm at Brandy Mara, B-R-A-N-D-Y-M-A-B-R-A. And then you can also find me on my website@savvyclover.com. S-A-V-V-Y-C-L-O-V-E r.com. If you go there, then there is a number of tools that is there waiting for you from practice health assessments to masterclasses that I, that, that I have.
And then I also have my own podcast as well called co Conversations. Yeah. So
Gordon Brewer: yeah. Tell, tell us about the podcast real quick.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah. So the podcast is, is, it's fun. So it comes out every week. Mm-hmm. Uh, we have conversations around just. What's happening in eco healthcare economy now? Uh, we also have some really great guests that, that come on and chime in from different lenses like we have.
We talked about travel. I love travel. I think travel's so important. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we've talked about travel. We talked about some of the business side of how to hire, how to engage your team. Uh, the conversations are definitely for the seven figure multi seven figure, or that six figure person that's going into, her levels of revenue, but it's, it's fun. It's really, really good.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Well, great, great. We'll have links in the show notes and the show summary. Thank you, uh, for anybody that wants to get to that quickly. And Brandy, hope to have you back again.
Brandy Mabra: Yeah. Thank you so much, Gordon. Thank you for having me here.