The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm looking forward to you hearing from Tyana Tavakol. Welcome, Tyana. Glad you're here.
Tyana Tavakol: Thank you so much for having me. This is a really great and helpful podcast, so I'm, I'm just grateful to get to speak.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's gla- glad to have you here.
And, and, and Tyana and I were just having conversation before we started recording, and we're gonna talk about some of the things that are a pa- she's passionate about and some of the work that she does. But Tyana tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah. So I was not always a licensed therapist. I used to work in corporate for about six years before I career changed. And reason for that is, being a child of immigrants, really the thing that's important at that, in that way is financial stability. And so what was always driven to me is you need to be financially stable through your career or through higher education.
And so I wasn't really thinking about what do I want to do. I was thinking about what I should do. But the more I got into that career, the more it was clear to me I don't love it. Uh, and I did my own therapy, which I'm sure a lot of us do, and come to this revelation that, oh, we do love psychology. And so I, I just made the change, uh, went to Pepperdine, and I haven't regretted it at all.
It's been so lovely to work in something where the things you have to learn are your passion. And so now I really have found my niche in late discovered autism and trauma and anxiety, and just working with that population along with children of immigrants to help create their own shifts and uncover what do they actually want, not what society's been telling them they should be doing.
And also helping other therapists to have mindset shifts, because private practice can be so stressful, as someone who's, has my own as well. And so I love to support with that however I can.
Gordon Brewer: That's awesome. I lo- I love your story, and that, that's such an important niche to be in. And yeah. And so it's just, yeah, it's really good.
So I know, I know one of the things we were just talking about was, were, uh, mindset shifts and also just, um, abund- having more of a, an abundance mentality versus scarcity. So tell us what, your thoughts around that and just how that's been helpful for you.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah. So specifically, I guess, like, going off the story I noticed that, you know, once I shifted out of corporate, which is all financial stability, into entrepreneurship and being a therapist, which is the opposite of financial stability, I, I had all these stories come up.
I had a lot of things start coming up saying- About, you know, not having enough clients and always being worried about money and treating my business as something that was just really scary and I had to hold on so tight to. And the more I dug into it, the more I started realizing that this is scarcity.
This is a mentality saying, which by definition is that there are not enough resources to go around, everything is getting limited and that you basically have to operate from a place of fear. And once I started to work on that and also start to notice that in my clients as well, I could see really big shifts both personally and clinically with their work because it's moving away from what am I, what am I holding onto that I'm really scared to lose because there's not enough, to, okay, maybe practice is really challenging, maybe there are times when there isn't enough money, but I have more control about this than I think.
There's more resources than I think. And that helps to shift towards more of a place of growth and actually b- being able to expand yourself. And so seeing those changes has made me really passionate about making other people aware of when they might be operating in this space.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I think one of the things that I think is just so important in just a lot of different areas is the mindset that we have and giving our, oursel- as I like to say, giving ourselves permission to think about things differently and seeing the world through a little different lens around those things.
And so that's, that really is important because- There are plenty of clients to go around, and I think like you've discovered, finding a specific niche, it's, um, really helpful in, in, defining what you do, and also gives you a little more security around things.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah, exactly. And it's, you know, not saying you find a niche and everything comes flowing in, but it's so interesting in this field because you really find that the more you are yourself, authentically yourself, the more you really- Mm-hmm
go towards not the clients you think you should be working with or just taking everyone, but actually saying, "Here's the person that I want to work with," the easier it gets to understand that it's okay that another therapist might be full and you're not. It's okay that another therapist are getting these clients and you're not, because those just aren't your clients.
It's not because there's not enough or the market's so saturated. Everyone's just so different. And like you said- Yeah ... once you figure that out, it seems like it kind of helps to find your people.
Gordon Brewer: R- well, I think, uh, uh, too, uh, you know, I took a look at your website. You've got a beautiful website, by
Tyana Tavakol: the way.
Gordon Brewer: Thank you so much. And, uh, yeah, and we'll have links to that here in the show notes and stuff. Yeah. But for people to look at it, but y- you know, your messaging is just very clear about the types of people that you work with. And so h- how did you come to that and how did you learn to do that?
Tyana Tavakol: I really appreciate it.
That was just updated in the last month. Uh-huh. So I, uh, I'm, just for context too, I'm about a year and a half into my practice, so I'm a newly, newly person in this. And the first year was a hot mess. The first year, I'm sure other therapists can relate, you are just getting everything together. Like, you are just starting to...
You're just putting up a website, you're advertising yourself, you're finding every possible thing, SEO, Instagram. But, Mm-hmm ... second year, which now it's more, okay, how do I clean this up? Like, how do I actually start deciding what marketing to focus on, what my messaging's gonna be? 'Cause things have slowed down a bit in that, like, just rushing to get it together.
Uh, I personally one of the things I had to work on with my scarcity was investing in my business, because it's this idea, right, of- If I spend this money, like what if I don't have it right now? You know, it's so scary, but then abundance is more thinking, if I invest it now, it'll come back later.
Mm-hmm. And so I chose to invest- Mm-hmm ... with getting an SEO coach to help me out to understand what SEO is, giving me some good basics and also for my messaging, getting a marketing program that was going to walk me through how do I write copy, how do I actually target a niche. I don't know if I'm allowed to like say the name of things.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, yeah. Let's, uh,
Tyana Tavakol: yeah. Okay.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, so Confident Copy was like a really helpful program for me to be able to do- Mm-hmm ... by Anna Walker, and then Natalie Moore for SEO, she was really helpful as well.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tyana Tavakol: And so doing that has helped me, 'cause it gave me step-by-step processes of how to write, and also helped me get clear on who do I actually want to work with, and turns out- Yeah
it's those people who are those anxious adults that feel a lot of emotions, and always feel too much, and like they're a burden, um, but wanna work on that. And usually- Mm-hmm ... we work with people that we have a similar life experience to, and have learned how to navigate out of, so that's been my happy place.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's, uh, not to get too off, far off on a tangent, but one of the- No, I'm... One, one, one, one of the thing... A- and you're not, I, the, I'm about to take us down a rabbit hole. Um, but, um, one, one of the things is that I've learned over the years is that you get a lot more credibility with clients by using a li- a bit of self-disclosure, of just sharing a little bit of your own journey, and, and people really connect with that.
And I think that comes through in your website, which yeah.
Tyana Tavakol: Thank you so much. That means a lot, and absolutely. I feel like that's really scary as therapists, as I'm sure you know, and others know in-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Tyana Tavakol: their graduate school, and they're saying ... And I know this generation is changing a lot in how they come- Mm-hmm
to therapy, but still the be a blank, blank slate I was in a psychodynamic practice for practicum, and so a lot of it was-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Tyana Tavakol: blank, don't show anything, don't share anything, but-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Tyana Tavakol: the best rapport I've had is when it, with careful disclosure, I, I can relate. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I totally know how hard it is to have to set a boundary for the first time in your life.
It is terrifying. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, it gets easier, and I can do that- Mm-hmm ... from experience. And also being a client myself has been- Yeah ... incredibly helpful.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, and that's, uh, that, that's such an important piece, I think, with everything is, um, really getting in, getting into your own skin and really being comfortable with who you are and, and, uh, also like you've mentioned, is doing our own work and just really focusing in on that.
That is so crucial, I think, for so many people.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah. It should be required, but I feel like being in therapy as a therapist is incredibly important, and then also like you said in terms of being able to disclose, also that helps to know, you know, when am I disclosing from a place of this is gonna be helpful versus this is my own protective parts coming up or something coming up where I'm feeling impulsively like I should share.
So- Mm-hmm ... it helps me be be able to disclose, but ethically and- Mm-hmm ... in ways that are helpful.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. One, one of the things about your practice I noticed that's unique, uh, uh, for, and I think a lot of people would be interested in this, you're strictly online with your practice, and so that must have been a challenge to start getting people to come to your website and finding clients because you're located in the Midwest, and-
Tyana Tavakol: Yes
Gordon Brewer: you're licensed in, in two different states.
Tyana Tavakol: Yes, that is a very good observation. Yeah, uh, one, on one hand, I am a COVID-born therapist, meaning I was in grad- My first year of grad school was in 2020, going into 2021, totally online. My practicum was online the whole two years, so I didn't- Mm ... even see clients in person until my associateship, and then I saw a lot of clients in person.
But, um- I definitely can see the challenge. It seems like in this day, in person is what a lot of people are wanting, and I totally understand that. And at the same time, what has been surprising is when I... By focusing in neurodivergence, there are a lot of clients who seem to prefer the format the same way that I do, because we get to be in our own spaces, and we get to have our own sensory tools.
Um, and that's something I love to send my new clients a little gift of sensory toys and fidgets, because the space is still grounding even if we're not in person. So it's more like it's given me a challenge on how do I be creative about this? How do I still- Mm-hmm ... make the space comfortable for them?
How do I stay as grounded as I can be, being in my own home and having a separation? And now how do I learn online marketing? Because local marketing- Mm-hmm ... is not gonna be as much of a thing here. So it's I think it's just helped me to ask what can I do differently so that I- Mm-hmm ... can optimize on being an online practice?
Gordon Brewer: What did you find as the biggest challenges when you first got it, got started in do- having an online practice?
Tyana Tavakol: I think lack of demand. I think the demand- Okay ... is really in person right now in a lot of ways. Um, but also as we all have experienced grad school doesn't necessarily teach us marketing, especially online marketing, right?
And so it was learning how to be a business, like an entrepreneur in some sense, and so learning, like that's why, SEO, learning how do I utilize SEO? How do I utilize a social media presence in a way that's ethical and also networking, like how do I network through online space? So it was all these questions that I had that I just had to start diving into and learning.
Mm-hmm. And I, haven't mastered them in any way, but I'm still getting better at them. And so I think the challenge was mostly being very much a beginner. Like at that point, having all the hours and the licensure, but I'm now a business owner, and that was totally- Mm-hmm ... something I have to figure out.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, what have you found that has worked be- worked best for you in that- Yeah ... in this environment? Yeah.
Tyana Tavakol: Uh, I, I think it's what a lot of people seem to find successful, which is creating real relationships. I am incredibly grateful for the community that I have, both from my grad school, from when I used to be on the board with LA CAMFT, from just so many, from the online social media community.
There's been so many amazing therapists, and I've found that actually finding people that we really get along just as people, not even just as clinicians, uh, that's where I get a lot of my referrals. Mm-hmm. It's so much about, okay, I'm g- I have a client who needs a referral. I like this person. I trust that they're gonna do good work, so I'm gonna send them their way.
Mm-hmm. And so the referrals go both ways. So honestly, relationships have been possible to build online through a lot of attention. Mm-hmm. And that's been strong. SEO too. SEO too is also very helpful. But honestly- Mm-hmm ... relationships have been the most, the strongest factor. I don't know if that's what you've experienced or- Yeah
as well, or
Gordon Brewer: if it's
Tyana Tavakol: been different.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, it, it really does come down to the relationships you, you foster and you develop with people and being able to, uh, make those connections and just, yeah. And yeah, that's really, I think about working th- this kind of a an example in working with clients who are maybe struggling with trying to find a job or something like that.
Nearly most everybody finds a job not necessarily by filling out an application, not that doesn't happen, but they, they get a job, or the significant ones, by, um, making connections with people. It's y- you who knows who, and all of that kind of thing. And so it, it really is about those one-to-one connections.
Tyana Tavakol: Exactly. I, I was just at a, an alumni talk for my grad school, and one of the other therapists that was in that talk and is an alumni was mentioning how she got a job because she went to an LA CAMFT event, happened to meet someone, who then connected her to a job. It just, it can be just like that. And it, I think that's what's so great about online is you really still can do that online.
It's just different in how you're gonna approach it.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And then I think I saw that you've done several speaking events and that sort of thing Yeah And what, what sort of topics do you tend to talk about? And because that, that's a, that's a whole way of kinda diversifying income and that sort of thing.
Tyana Tavakol: Exactly, and that's what's beautiful about this field is you really don't get bored 'cause there's so many different things you can do. But with speaking events- Mm-hmm ... i, so I've been a trauma specialist from the beginning until now. I've only recently started going more into the late diagnosed autism.
So that's a lot of my approaches, my method, my methods, my knowledge. And so- Mm-hmm ... my topics so far have mostly been trauma based. Uh, more... It'll, I'll usually find that people are interested in the nervous system and how trauma's showing up for them as adults, and that has been different contexts. Some of the contexts have been in corporate environments such as, you know, in the workplace with your coworkers, your bosses, remote positions, and how that can bring up a lot of insecurity, layoffs.
Mm-hmm. So things like that. It's also been how it can show up. Recently I did one, uh, in Chicago that was about how it can show up as your personality, how all these survival responses, fight, flight, fawn, et cetera, can show up, you know, from people who flake last second on hangouts or gather everyone around to be mad at the person who pissed them off and send them a bunch of screenshots as a fight.
So things like that in different ways. And I have one coming up with Lectures On Tap in, uh, September or October, and that one's gonna be about friendship breakups, so that's gonna deviate quite a bit. But for the most part- Mm-hmm ... it's been trauma.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's, that's fascinating, uh, just friendship breakup.
That's a- Yeah ... that's a really, that's a really, uh, cool topic, I guess. I mean, I just- We, we, we don't really think about that, but yet it's all happened to all of us. No. Yeah, at some point. Yeah. You know, it's kinda like, what is it they say? You have, you have, uh, friends for a reason, friends for a season, and then friends for a lifetime.
And so I don't know if you've ever heard that before, but- I
Tyana Tavakol: haven't heard that, but I love that phrase ... yeah,
Gordon Brewer: yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's really good. So different. Yeah. And so, yeah, some, sometimes friends just don't last, and that's okay.
Tyana Tavakol: Exactly. I'm still gathering all my information on that presentation, but from the little that I've looked at, it's so interesting 'cause music is not categorized by friendship breakups.
You have romantic songs, so that's- Mm-hmm ... and all the research so far has been saying that it's just such an understudied area. Mm-hmm. So it's such a, it's, it's a topic that's ripe for exploration, and that's something that I love bringing to speaking engagements is you can really go in these creative directions and just find a topic you're, that sounds exciting and go deep and then be able to bring that to people, and then now have material that you can use with clients, that you can use for other speaking events, use for social media.
Mm-hmm. But friendship breakups is fascinating, and I'm sure we all see that with our clients and help them with it.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Tyana Tavakol: So it's just bringing it to a larger audience.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Well, one question that comes to mind, I would imagine that it's pretty pretty awesome to work with people that are late diagnosed neurodivergent and autistic, and what that does for them of being able to, to define, okay, this, oh, this is what's happening kind of thing.
You wanna say more about that and just-
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Tyana Tavakol: I would love to. I'm ADHD myself, self-diagnosed. There's a lot of things about assessments that I support, and some things that right now it's just not accessible to me. But for when it, it comes to working with it, it is such a beautiful place because most people coming to therapy around that have just discovered either by themselves or through assessment that they have this diagnosis and want to understand what that means for them.
Like, what is their autism or ADHD or whatever it is, and what is just them being a person? And so starting to differentiate those things, and also, you know, wondering why therapy hasn't worked for them for the last few years, right? Like, why are none of the coping skills working? So actually getting really specific in finding tools that work for their brain is very fun because we get- Mm-hmm
to be super creative, learning their specific sensory needs, their specific boundaries. So that's been really enjoyable. And at the same time, it comes with grief, right? Because- Mm-hmm ... imagine having 20 years, 30 years, 40, however long, where nobody figured this out, and most of the time these people are coming in because they figured out themselves.
So having to think- Yeah ... for that long there's something wrong with you, you're broken you're just weird, that's also a really deep belief that comes with things like trauma that get worked on as well. But there is- Mm-hmm ... a lot of grief along with some validation.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, yeah, having worked with a few people in my career that identify as autistic or neurodivergent it's really I- it's really cool to be able to talk with them about how they see the world through a different lens a- and just- Yeah
being able to accept that. And I think for therapists working with those folks to really get curious about how they see things, and that's that's fascinating to me.
Tyana Tavakol: It is because I, as someone who's neurodivergent myself, like it's, you start learning that every brain truly is so different, as, it's so different in how they see things, the rules they have about the world, what they're noticing.
Sometimes it's incredibly impressive because of the level of sensory perception and sensitivity in the nerve system allows them to feel sometimes and see things that others may not. It just, I think it helps to, it helps me personally to think outside the box constantly. Mm-hmm. Because they're not, there's no box for them.
For them, it's, they have their own rules, their own way of being, and that is incredibly exciting, and also means that a lot of the work is figuring out what exactly those rules are that they've been operating by, what are these perceptions, because a lot of times they're operating very automatically- Mm-hmm
uh, and they don't actually understand why did they just blow up because this thing happened. And it might be maybe they have expectations around people following the schedule that they had in their own head that no one knew about.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's co- that's so cool. That's so cool. Uh, Tyana, I know we've gotta be mindful of our time and there's so much we could talk about, and this is just, yeah, this is just fascinating for me.
Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and maybe find out more about your work and maybe even how they can refer to you.
Tyana Tavakol: I really, yeah, of course. So if anyone would like to connect, learn more, or just reach out for therapy or referrals, you can find me at uncovering-you.com. Um, I also share educational content about trauma and autism and mindset in general on my Instagram @uncoveringyoutherapy.
And I have a mailing list you can sign up for on my website, which I will start giving a lot more free resources and content in the next few months.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for people to get to that easily. But so Tyana, what are s- any parting thoughts before we close things out?
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah. Because this is a private practice podcast, I would say for therapists in general, there's so much pressure to have this together, to have enough clients, to be seen as if you're doing well, seeing that other people are full and comparing, especially with social media, and just to remember that a lot of people who are struggling aren't speaking about it.
That most people's experiences are a lot more common than they think, and just to have self-compassion and grace that people are probably doing a lot better than they think, and I just love to promote- Mm-hmm ... that message as much as I can.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And I, a- and I think too is, is that, you know, one of the things that I hear thrown around a lot is this whole concept of imposter syndrome, and I really encourage people to
I mean, if you're in this field and you've gone through the li- you know, graduate school and licensure and all of that, you know a lot of stuff, and you, y- you're very capable of d- of doing this kind of work. And so I wouldn't listen to that little demon voice that- Yeah. ... tells us otherwise.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. And if anyone wants to do speaking events, exactly what you said, I think sometimes we think that we don't know as much as things, but one- you do one speaking event and you notice you're actually an expert compared to people who didn't do 3,000 hours- Mm-hmm ... who didn't go to grad school. You really start to realize you know a lot more than you think.
Yeah. So if you're scared- Yeah ... of getting yourself out there, I'd actually say just get yourself out there and your confidence will improve just from one event and see- right ... you are pretty good at what you do.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, and it's, uh, yeah, it's that, um, it's that internal dialogue that gets us in trouble and yeah.
Tyana Tavakol: Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: We're ... Yeah. Sure. Sure.
Tyana Tavakol: It's evil.
Gordon Brewer: Tyana, thanks so much for being on the podcast and this is just a delightful conversation, and hopefully we'll have another one here soon.
Tyana Tavakol: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.