The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome to the podcast. And I'm really excited for you to get to meet Kristin Oja.
And Kristin is a funct- a physician do, doing functional medicine. Is that, have I got that correct?
Kristin Oja: So DNP, doctor of nursing practice. Uh-huh. But yes, I do functional medicine. That is my-
Gordon Brewer: Yes ...
Kristin Oja: my background-
Gordon Brewer: Yes ... and my passion. Yes. It's, and so I had the privilege of her interviewing me for her podcast, but Kristin, welcome, and tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Kristin Oja: Awesome. Thank you, and I'm excited to be here. So my career I always talk about started actually as a personal trainer. I loved it. I love seeing people get stronger, feel better, be an encourager, support them, see them accomplish things they never thought possible. But I wanted to get a college degree, and so I went nursing, and as soon as I got into nursing school and started doing rotations, I started recognizing how good at sick care we were in the US verse true healthcare.
And I always say I'm so thankful to be here if I get diagnosed with cancer or heart disease or whatever it may be. We have some of the best surgeons, the best oncologists. But when I'm just looking to be the best version of myself or I'm, I'm looking to understand the root cause of my symptoms verse find a medication, I think that's where our system fails a lot of people.
And so I went back and got my master's and my doctorate, and then I went on and got Institute of Functional Medicine training and A4M training, and just kept learning and researching how the body works as one and getting deeper into pathophysiology to help my patients understand why. Why are they depressed?
Why are they having brain fog? Why is their hair falling out? Why have they had a third sinus infection this year? Like, I'm a curious person. And so I went back to my personal training background, and I went back to my experience in functional medicine, and I wanted to create the nation's first functional medicine and movement practice.
And so we opened the first one in Atlanta in 2019 and have since grown to our eighth location that's gonna be opening in August. We have about 11,000 patients, and we're gonna be getting close to 90 employees, and it's all around lifestyle medicine, taking a deeper dive, helping our patients feel seen and heard, leaning in on their journey and their experience verse just a protocol.
Yeah. So that's me.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, that's great. I, I just, I, I always love hearing people's stories of how they kinda end up where they are, and so it's just really it's, it sounds like you're really following your passion with what you do, and it certainly comes through. But, uh, yeah. And so yeah, I think for most of us in the, you know, in the therapy space are really, we, we understand the kind of the mind-body concept of, everything's connected.
But I know one thing about us as therapists is we're not as good about taking care of ourselves as maybe we should, but I know one of your, your things for you- Kristin, is really learning how to manage burnout and burnout- Mm-hmm ... uh, manage our resilience with that and what we can do to kinda help with that.
So- Mm-hmm ... y- I guess maybe a place to start is what, how do you define burnout?
Kristin Oja: Mm-hmm. I think that's great, and it's ... I am so happy to speak to your audience as therapists 'cause we do a lot of this at STAT. Service-based industries, one-on-one with patients or couples, you are hearing their trauma every day, and a lot of people describe it as, like, second trauma that we're experiencing as functional medicine providers, as therapists.
So it's even more important that we're doing the things outside of our job to widen our threshold and help with recovery and resilience, and so I'm excited to talk about that today. But burnout is really, like, to me, in a very simple way, it's you have, one, you're exhausted and two, the things that you used to love you don't enjoy anymore.
So, like, you used to love being a therapist, but now it's like I dread going and seeing my clients. I used to love, like, listening to podcasts about how to become a best therapist, and now I'm like I feel very fine with just staying a very mediocre therapist. Mm-hmm. Like, I can't wait for my day to end.
Like, a lot of that to me is, is burnout. You've lost your drive. You've lost your desire to be the best version of yourself, and you, your, your cup is empty. You have nothing left to pour from. Right. And I truly believe the longer I've been in this, and as I physically and emotionally push myself as a CEO and founder of STAT, it's not necessarily our job in isolation that's causing burnout.
It is what we're doing outside of our job, and that's really what I wanna chat about. And I also want, and I feel like speaking to therapists you guys know this, but I, I spend a lot of time talking about the stress bell curve. And so I always like to, before we move into burnout and stress and increasing resilience, for us all to be on the same page that stress is good, right?
Like-
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Kristin Oja: You want to be under stress. You wanna exercise and put stress on your heart. You wanna lift weight and put stress on your muscles. You wanna take the promotion and grow your skill set. Stress is not bad. We have to think about that as eustress, but there's a point where we tip over where our performance goes down because our stress is too high, and we start to approach burnout, which is what- Mm-hmm
we're trying to prevent.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, that makes so much sense, uh, because, I think, um, as we all know, we, we learn from being under stress. I mean, we learn through putting ourselves in situations that might feel kinda scary to some degree.
Kristin Oja: Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: You know, I think about ri- learning to ride a bicycle, you had to take a risk there and put yourself under some stress, but once you did, then you remember it the rest of your life.
So I mean, thought maybe a great example. Exactly right. But yeah. So-
Kristin Oja: I do think that's actually a great example. Uh, the, yeah, I think that's like it's... And I think there's certain personalities that are easier to put themself out there and easier to take that risk on, um, than other personalities, but you just, you wanna look back at your life and know that you pushed yourself to a point that helped you become the best version of yourself, but you still were able to live life to its fullest.
Mm-hmm. You still had healthy relationships, quality of life, you felt purpose-driven, you felt like your life was in alignment with your goals. And I just, I feel like the more and more I've done this, the more and more I've realized we just, we have no idea what our goals in life are. We have no idea what our mission is, what our core values are.
And for me as the CEO of STAT, like I think about that for our business all the time, what's our mission? Right. What's our core values? Right. How are we hiring people for them? But like in our own life- Mm-hmm ... how much time do you spend thinking about like what my mission is, my vision is, my core values?
You're almost like interviewing the people that are coming into your community, that are becoming your close friends, your family, your spouses, right? It's just-
Gordon Brewer: Right ...
Kristin Oja: so I always like to set that stage, but my goal in, in this conversation is to help everybody recover better and become more resilient. And so- Mm-hmm
I always think about this rubber band, and I know it's like a very cheesy, uh, analogy, but it just makes so much sense. If you have a rubber band and you are under stress and you stretch that rubber band, if you know how to bring yourself back to baseline, that rubber band doesn't snap, right? If you stretch and you stretch and you stretch and you stretch and you never recover, that rubber band is gonna snap, and we're- Right
gonna get into burnout. So our goal is not, again, to remove the stressors. Our goal is to increase recovery and improve resilience
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. So what's your approach with that with people? I think, uh, a- and I know, uh, just in the little bit I know about you, Kristin, it's more of a holistic approach. So-
Kristin Oja: Mm-hmm
Gordon Brewer: yeah, how do you do that with people?
Kristin Oja: So I'm very visual. You could do this with a piece of paper. You could visualize it like a bucket like I do. You could do a drawing, an infographic, whatever you wanna do that makes sense with this concept, but I talk a lot about your stress bucket, and how many things right now are in your stress bucket, and what are things in your stress bucket that you can remove.
So I wanna walk people through some stressors that people might not recognize as stressors, but remember stress is good, right? Mm-hmm. So when I talk about a lot of these stressors, you're gonna be like that's good." That is good- Yeah ... but it's still a stress on the system, right? Right. So exercise.
What's your exercise looking like? Are you training for a marathon right now? That's a lot of stress on your body. You know, some could argue mindset-wise, mental clarity-wise, maybe there's a lot of positives that come from it- Mm-hmm ... but that's stress on the body. So, like, okay, how much are we exercising?
What does that look like? Caffeine. Caffeine's a stimulant. It's stress on our body. There's a lot of research that coffee's good for us, but how much coffee are we drinking? Mm-hmm. So we've got exercise. We've got coffee. Sleep. How much sleep deprivation are we under? If we're getting six hours of sleep every night that's stress on the body, so put that into your bucket, right?
If we start putting that our job is in a really stressful state, put that in our bucket. Our relationships are not healthy right now, put that in our bucket. We're under financial stress, put that in your bucket. Mm-hmm. Start writing out all the different stressors on your system. Um, some of our patients, because of some of the good research out there, they're starting to intermittent fast.
Put that in your bucket, 'cause that's stress- Mm-hmm ... on the body. Uh, sauna- Right ... cold plunge, the temperature contrast, that's stress on the body. So sometimes the people that are at more risk of burnout are actually my high performers that are doing everything for their health, right?
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
Kristin Oja: Uh-huh. They're waking up at 5:00 AM, and they're working out, and they're drinking coffee, and they're intermittent fasting, and then they're working a high intensity job.
You look on paper and you're like, "Wow, they're, they always are exercising, and they eat really clean," right? Mm-hmm. But they're putting a lot of good stress on their system, and their bucket is getting full, and it's going to- ... tip. So I want us to all kind of think broad, and then there's even things that maybe are harder to identify, like food sensitivities for example.
Let's say you are sensitive to dairy, and you eat a lot of dairy, and it's causing mild inflammation in the body. Mm-hmm. That inflammation's also a stressor on the system. So nothing inherently is wrong with dairy. I have dairy, but, like, some people are sensitive to it. So, like, you have to really, when you're thinking about burnout, and when you're thinking about optimizing recovery and resilience, you have to cast a wide net, and you have to take time to, like, really start to pay attention to how you feel during different points of the day and what you're doing to fill your cup up, and then write out some of those stressors, good and bad, and start to visualize, "Well, how many of those do I have going on every single day, and what can I cut back on?"
So for example, I have a patient I talked with, and she was telling me that every morning she wakes up and she drinks coffee. And I was like, "Well, how do you feel when you drink coffee?" She was like, "Well, I get a little bit of diarrhea, but, like, helps me go to the bathroom, and I get a little bit shaky, but, like, it's the caffeine."
Like, everybody has that response when they have coffee. So every morning you're waking up and you're drinking coffee, you're getting a little bit of anxiety, your heart's beating quickly, and you're having diarrhea, and that's how we start our day every day. I was like, "Why don't we switch it to green tea?
Let's see how we feel having some green tea in the morning," right? Uh-huh. So for that person, that very small thing shifted her nervous system and lowered her cortisol before her day even started.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Kristin Oja: And-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I was just, I was just thinking the image that came to mind for me is really identifying all the pressure points in your life.
The pla- the things that are causing you stress or anxiety, that kind of thing. I think that's-
Kristin Oja: ... A-
Gordon Brewer: and, and, and it's amazing when we do those things, when we do kind of an inventory a lot of times it turns out that the inventory isn't as big as we thought it was. Yes.
Kristin Oja: Well, and that was what I was gonna bring up next, is, like, just the different, if you look at people that have a lot of stressors on their plate, like, if you look at, for example, my life, I have three young kids, you know, I've got this business I described earlier, I see patients still two days a week, I have all the notes, I have all of that, right? My tolerance for stress is so wide because of the way my life looks, so that something that I have going on right now, people may never know because it's, like, such a lower stressor out of the whole grand scheme.
Mm-hmm. So I'm able, my mindset around it is like, I don't have the time to get angry and dwell on some of these small things. And I really challenge people, like, the thing that you're angry about, the thing that's creating a lot of stress, that inner voice that's talking to yourself do you really have control over the outcome of that?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm,
Kristin Oja: mm-hmm. And so many times people don't. And there's this book, I don't know if you guys have heard about it in your space, but it's called The Real Self-Care. It's a very the premise is pretty basic, but it's pretty- Mm-hmm ... impactful when you think about it. So, you know, a lot of our people come in, and they're, and I ask them, "Well, what do you do for self-care?"
"Well, I go and get massages," or, "I go and do yoga," or, "I, I go and get, like, once a month, a facial." And I'm like, "Well, I love that you do that stuff for you. That's great." But, you know, the real self-care is how do you talk to yourself?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Kristin Oja: That, 15 hours you're awake every day. Your voice is the most powerful thing in burnout.
And so I know this in the therapy space, you guys probably help a lot of patients with this inner voice. Right. But when I meet with patients, it's the hardest thing for me to evaluate. There's not a lab value that I can run on how you talk to yourself. And if eight hours of every day you're telling yourself, "I'm not enough.
I didn't, I hated the way that therapy session went. Like, why did I respond that way?" If you are all day long self-deprecating you are at an astronomical higher risk of burning out-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Kristin Oja: than if you can just say like, "Man, that was kind of funny the way I said that. Like, I'm, I'm a, I was embarrassed for a little bit," but, like, everybody says those things and you don't think about it again.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Kristin Oja: Your nervous system, that responds to that in such a different way. So I think when I think about burnout and resilience, I think about, like, those obvious stressors. I think about some of the non-obvious physical stressors. I think about how do we make sure we are taking care of ourselves with those lifestyle foundations, hydration, sleep, laughter.
Sometimes I ask patients, "When's the last time you laughed?"
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Kristin Oja: Sometimes I tell patients, "Throw your wearable away." I love wearables. Mm-hmm. I, like, literally have a practice around, like, helping people know their data, their HRV, their deep sleep percent, all of this stuff. But knowledge is not good for everybody, right?
Right. There are people that obsess about that information, and it dictates their life decisions, and they have ... They don't know how they feel anymore because they just go based off the data. If the data tells them in the morning that they're not recovered, they're gonna look at that and be like, "I'm not recovered.
I've gotta lay on the couch all day," or- Mm-hmm ... "I'm really recovered. Now I can go do this." And I'm like, you know, data is, is knowledge is power, but we cannot over-perfect and stress these points. And so a lot of times- Yeah ... for me, I'm telling people to throw out the wearables. Start paying attention to how you actually feel.
Start paying attention- Mm-hmm ... to how you're talking to yourself. Going to bed 30 minutes earlier can make a huge difference when we're talking about burnout. Right. Waking up and drinking water and eating breakfast before you have your coffee can make a huge difference in burnout.
These are small changes that totally change your body's nervous system and adrenal health.
Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, you're so right because you ... What we put in our heads, the stories we tell ourselves, have a huge impact on our whole mental health and what, you know, how we see the world and how our body responds to it as well. Yeah, and that's, um, I think that is key, and being able to, um, recognize, okay, what are the things I have control over versus the ones that I don't.
Mm-hmm. And, um, I talk, you know, with cl- in working with clients, one of the things that I talk with them about is having the difference between having a, an internal locus of control versus an external locus of control. You know, if we're constantly just res- reacting to everything around us and our whole sense of control is what everybody else is doing- That's gonna, that's gonna be exhausting a- and y- and you're gonna be v- tr- perpetually frustrated, and you're gonna be let down and all of those kinds of things, versus, okay, having an internal lo- locus of control of, like you said, I can control when I go to bed.
I can control what I eat. I can look at, how I'm taking care of myself and all of those kinds of things.
Kristin Oja: Exactly right, and this I feel like the way I describe this is finding peace in the chaos. I talk with my patients, like, how well are you able to find peace in the chaos? Because I think in all of our lives, living in the US, and probably anywhere in the world, like there's always chaos around us, and that chaos around us should not throw off our own internal balance.
And so we talk a lot in the same way with our, our clients 'cause you can have a chaotic life, and you internally can still feel at peace, and your nervous system can feel calm, and you ... I've never lost a night of sleep from a business ever. Mm-hmm. Like, I just- Mm-hmm ... my external, whatever's going on, it is never going to impact my ability to- Yeah
fall asleep, stay asleep. Right. I'll deal with that fire tomorrow. But it's that mindset shift, and one of the other things when you were talking and, uh, about, like, what we can control and what we can't control, every once in a while, thankfully it doesn't happen too often, but every once in a while, I get so incredibly overwhelmed, and I'm like, I have 500,000 things I'm stressing out about right now.
And so what I do is I take out a piece of paper, and I start writing all of those things down, and then I go through the list with a Sharpie, and I write through all the things I can't control. So, like, maybe I'm, like, really stressed out about something going on in the world, the politics, maybe something I saw on Instagram, like whatever it may be.
Mm-hmm. Like, I just write everything in my brain down, and then I circle the ones that are within my control, and then I put- Mm-hmm ... like one or two actions that's gonna help me figure out a solution. I like to stay in the solution space verse stay in the agony of the stress space. Uh-huh. Right. And so that has been, that's been super helpful for me.
Like, I always describe seasons, like there are seasons that are really full, and there are seasons where you have a lot more on your mind, a lot more stress going on. But I'd- Mm-hmm ... encourage you, like really try to get it out on paper, and try to get the things that you can't control, try not to spend as much time focusing on those, and train your mind- Yeah
to let it go.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah. I, you know, um, I, one of the things that I, I journal pretty much every day, and so it, and I encourage clients to do that as well because like you said it's the stuff you carry inside, and to be able to write it down is kind of a way of putting it out here outside yourself so that you can look at it maybe a little more objectively, and it's not, it's not driven by a lot of irrational thoughts and those negative messages we tell ourselves and all of that sort of thing.
That, that internal critic is very powerful force for a lot of us. Yeah.
Kristin Oja: And I don't, I'm not a therapist, and I'm not in the research enough, but I'd almost argue it's like it's so, so important in the bur- Like I think that is almost the most important piece, even beyond the sleep, the hydration, 'cause it's every day with you from when you wake up till when you go to bed, when you're sitting in traffic, when you're working.
That voice, like it is the most influential thing on our nervous system.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Kristin Oja: And so ... But I think it's the hardest thing. Like someone I can tell them to drink more water and go to bed earlier, they're like, "Got it. I'm like really organized person. I'm like really on top of it. I'm gonna drink more water.
I'm going to go to bed earlier. I'm gonna cut out the alcohol. I'm gonna reduce my caffeine." Like they can do those things. But then I'm like, they'll come into an appointment and they'll say, "Ugh, I almost canceled this 'cause I've done absolutely nothing you told me to." Well, then I said, "Well, did you wake up in the morning and do you go to work and, you know, have you, you been exercising?"
I'm like, "You've been doing a lot since I saw you last."
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. "
Kristin Oja: You've been waking up. You've been working. You've been..." But I can already tell they're criticizing themself before we've even had- Right ... an opportunity to meet. Mm-hmm. And then I can tell them, like, "Well, actually, you've had some improvements in your labs."
Mm-hmm. "I want you to leave here knowing that you did a great job. Tell me something before you walk out of this room that you did really well in the last 90 days since I saw you."
Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah.
Kristin Oja: But, like, that voice, and it's the more I look into the research, and again, this is your guys' space, but it's like, it's really taught at a very, very young age, and so you have to rewire the brain.
Mm-hmm. And this can take months and years and decades, depending on the person and the degree of, you know, upbringing. Like, if you're told your whole life you're never enough, that's all you believe, that you're never enough. Right.
So, so I think, like, there's multiple buckets when it comes to burnout.
I don't think it's just our job. I think there is some things we can do in our job throughout our day that does make a big difference, and some of these are super small. But just getting a little bit more tactical, let's say you have five clients. Certain things in between each client can reground you.
You know- Yeah ... basic things. Rolling your shoulders, release some of that tension in your shoulders- Mm-hmm ... at, between appointments. Go back, do one minute, save one minute between clients to do some breathwork. Re-lower your cortisol. Maybe that person, something they said was actually really triggering for something you've experienced in your own life.
Right. Take a moment. Mm-hmm. Roll the shoulders, do the breathwork, get some water. If you're in an office that does have a window, go stand by the window for a second and let the sunshine come. If you're in an office that doesn't have a window, put, you know, a five-minute break in your day to go outside, get sunshine on your face.
Mm-hmm. You know, I'm a huge proponent, I don't know in, in your space as much as mine, but I really try when I'm with patients, I do not look at my email. I have my phone on do not disturb. I don't need any other notifications coming at me. I wanna focus on my patients and myself, and my patients and myself, and those fires, they'll be there.
But if I pull up my email or I see a text, you know, something's going on with an employee- Mm-hmm ... some policy needs to be signed, now I have all of those stressors on top of what I'm already doing.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah, and I, and I was gonna say, um, you know, just with the phones and all of that one, one of the things that I think kinda adds to kind of that negative self-talk is spending too much time, you know, s- doom scrolling and then comparing yourself to others, which- Mm-hmm
it, the Yeah, don't get me started, but yeah, but- Have
Kristin Oja: you heard of The Brick?
Gordon Brewer: The Brick? No, I've not heard of that. Yeah.
Kristin Oja: So a lot of people are starting to get The Brick, which I'm so excited about. It goes with your phone, but you set barriers to where it locks you from your own apps at certain times of the day.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, okay.
Kristin Oja: And I have found that my patients, they need that. They, like, really- Uh-huh ... need it on the phone because, you know, they've gotten the kids to bed or whatever, and they just are laying there on the couch, and they grab their phone and they try to go to Instagram, and it's locked. They can't get into their Instagram-
to start doom scrolling. Yeah. So I'm like- Okay ... if you are having a hard time, like, setting up boundaries, like, there's a lot of strategies. Like, you could put a box in your house. When you come home, you put your phone in there for an hour or two. Just give yourself- Mm-hmm ... an hour or two of no technology, no scrolling, or maybe you need to get something like The Brick because you're like, "I need to have my phone to be accessible if a school calls or somebody calls."
Lock you out of those other apps that don't serve you well.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Kristin Oja: Um, there's more and more research coming out around the importance of that, and I think it's everything all the time is what is leading- Yeah ... to the burnout in the US. Yeah. It's everything all the
Gordon Brewer: time. I think it is, yeah. And to go back to something you said earlier, and people have heard this for a lot, a lot from me, is be really clear with yourself about your why.
You know, what are, why are you doing what you're doing? What is the internal motivation for, being in practice or working, doing the work that you do? And, um, if you're not clear on that, you might wanna take a look at that, you know?
Kristin Oja: Mm-hmm. So with that- Especially in a service-based industry. Like, especially when day in and day out, you're sitting with people, you're pouring into them.
Like, if you... It's a, any service-based industry is a very challenging business because you're on- Yeah ... all the time. And I talk about this with our team. I'm like, "You don't really have an opportunity to have a bad day when you're sitting in front of a client." Like, you have- Right ... to show up and be the best version of yourself.
Exactly. But when you know that why it makes the good and the bad. It's like you just- Mm-hmm ... can see the bigger picture.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. Kristin, I've gotta be respectful of your time, and, and I'm really glad we had this conversation. What parting thoughts do you have? And also tell folks how they can get in touch with you and find out more about the work that you're doing.
Kristin Oja: So I don't know if your audience does use wearables. I know some of my patients, I said, "You gotta throw it out." But there is an indicator on your Apple Watch, there's an indicator on an Oura Ring, Whoop band, that's a really good tool to evaluate burnout, and it's called your heart rate variability, or HRV.
And so this evaluates how your nervous system responds to stress, how quickly are we able to calm down, how much variation do we have throughout the day. And there should actually be a lot of variation. If you get up and walk, if you're exercising, if you get stressed and you calm down, we want heart rate variability.
And so if you are wearing an Apple Watch and you had no idea it was measuring this, you can go to the health app on your phone. If you have the Oura Ring, the Whoop band, look at your HRV. And there is not a perfect level. The HRV, the research is kind of all over the place. We know women- Mm-hmm ... tend to have lower ones.
It declines with age. But in general, we want our patients to be at 50 or above. So if you are like, "I don't really know how my nervous system is doing, like, I feel fine," and you look at your HRV and you're at 13, 14, 15, I am concerned about your nervous system, and you need to really take an evaluation of your life and go back to your breath and the hydration and the sleep and the laughter- Mm-hmm
and the relationships and all these things we've talked about today. Right. And just track it. You know, not every day, periodically. Mm-hmm. But it is a good indicator that a lot of people don't know is there. And then to answer your question of how you can find us, our my practice is called Stat Wellness.
It's statwellness.com. We do free 15 minutes. We work with a lot of therapists, actually, to run their adrenal glands, check their cortisol, check their DHEA, their inflammation, their nutrients. And we do free 15s, so you can hop on with one of our providers, see if there's a way that we can work with you or help you, and see if we're a right fit.
And I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, all the things. Kristin Oja, DNP.
Gordon Brewer: Well, we'll have links sent, and we'll have links, of course, in the show notes and the show summary for people to get to that. And Kristin, I'm so glad we got to meet and got to do this together. And thank you for having me on your podcast.
Tell folks about that as well.
Kristin Oja: Yes, absolutely. So if you go to the Little By Podcast, Gordon was on there talking about the health of relationships, and so we'll be releasing that in the next few weeks. So, um, be sure to check it out, and it- Mm ... stands for little by little, a little becomes a lot.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
That's great. I love that concept. So well, thanks again, Kristin, for being on the podcast.
Kristin Oja: Thank you so much