The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm happy for you to get to know today Lindsay Benson, who is a therapist located in the Tulsa, Oklahoma area.
But Lindsay, welcome. Glad you're here.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah, so good to be here. Thanks for
Gordon Brewer: having me. Yeah. Yes. And, uh, so as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. So like most of us, started off in community mental health out of college, and did that until I was able to start my own private practice about 14 years ago.
So I've been in private practice since then. I primarily see adults, and integrating lots of different modalities as we go along the way and find new trainings and new ways. So I'm really excited and happy with the practice that I currently have. It's great.
Gordon Brewer: That's great. Mm-hmm. And I know you've expanded, as we were talking about uh, before we started recording, of really spending a lot of time working with therapists.
So how did that come about?
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. Yeah, I think I just happened along it. I started working with therapists just, you know, one came along and I thought, wow, this is really great because they don't have to have the buy-in that other clients have to have. They already believe in therapy. Mm-hmm. So allows me to bypass some of that.
And then they've already psychoanalyzed themselves, like so we can get going a lot faster. They've already done a lot of the legwork. And so I realized that I could make headway a lot faster with them, and it was just really fun and exciting. And then therapists started sending other therapists that they knew, and before long I've realized that about 50% of my clients are therapists, and I really enjoy working with that population.
So it's rewarding.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It, it really is, and I know I, even in my practice I get somehow or another got a reputation for being a good therapist- Yeah ... for therapists, and I, yeah. Yeah. And you're, you're right, it's a different, it's a different level of doing things. Mm-hmm,
Lindsay Benson: yes.
Gordon Brewer: And it is, it's very rewarding in that sense.
Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: So, tell us a little bit how you... I know part of your story is, is that you were working for an agency and- Mm-hmm ... moved into private practice. How long have you been in private practice?
Lindsay Benson: 14 years.
Gordon Brewer: Wow. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, so g- probably there wasn't a whole lot about private practice when you were coming along-
kinda like it was for me. Yes. So how did you learn what you lor- you've learned?
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. Yes, I, there wasn't very many practices at all. I learned the hard way of trying to figure out how to get credentialed with the insurance panels and trying to figure out how to do my own billing. And I did have, you know, there, I had help like from agencies and places that I had worked, some of the biller, billing people would help me out.
I would hire them to do a consultation with me and teach me some of the- the things I needed to know, and I would say I just know the exact bare minimum of what someone needs to know to just bill for counseling. Um, but then I, I also kind of found, because it was hard and there wasn't that much information, then I started doing consultation for therapists to help them build their own practices.
Mm-hmm. So that was also something I started doing just a few years into my own practice. People would come to me and say, "How did you do this?" And I would, I would say, "Yeah let's sit down and, and help." So that's another way. I just like working with other therapists in any way that I can. Yeah, right.
And I found that was another fun thing to do,
Gordon Brewer: yeah. Yeah. What would you say have been the biggest the biggest challenges for you just in private practice, I think?
Lindsay Benson: Learning the insurance system 'cause that's like a foreign language to me. Mm-hmm. And I, like I said, I kind of, I know the bare minimum, and I'm okay with that 'cause it m- help- I'm allow- I can do my job, which is that bare minimal.
Probably also the fact that there wasn't a lot of people doing private practice, so I didn't have a lot of peers to kind of consult with, and maybe that's why it's important that I helped other therapists along the way figure it out and do it. Because it can feel so overwhelming to them- Mm-hmm ... when they think about starting out.
And obviously, a lot of our personalities, we, we might, we're, we don't love the paperwork. We don't love the administrative side of it. We're here because we wanna help clients, and that's sometimes, like, two different aspects of ourselves. And so c- I, I feel that therapists don't have, like, a lot of confidence in that ability, the, um- Mm-hmm
being the planner, being the, being the biller. And so, um, so yeah, so figuring that out, and then also, like, helping people, help- helping people do that as well. But I think also just getting your name out there marketing because there wasn't- Yeah ... even really like social media 14 years ago. Yeah. Right. Um, so I really had to build and rely on, like, personal relationships with different providers in town, and that's how my name really started growing.
And then especially because I started, when I started working with therapists, they're really happy to share information, and so they tell all the therapists they know, and then I'm kind of known, you know, in my town as, like, the therapist for therapists. Mm-hmm. And so that just constantly feeds me in new clients.
But that's definitely the hardest part, just figuring out the billing aspect and- Mm-hmm ... marketing yourself.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So when, when you decided to accept insurance, I know that's a, that's a hot topic among different-
Lindsay Benson: Yeah ...
Gordon Brewer: therapists around the country. Yeah. Uh, how did you decide to accept insurance versus just going totally private pay?
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. I think 14 years ago, the concept of private pay was very just unheard of kind of because there, i- in my town, there wasn't very many private practices at all, and so I did take insurance. I no longer do. A few years ago, I stopped taking insurance and, uh, but if, if you're starting off and you're trying to decide, it's a tough one to navigate.
But insurance and all the problems that it has, it did help me have a successful practice for the first 10 years of my practice. And so I, I don't have a lot of negativity to them. It's, you know, yes, they need to raise their rates, and it can be kind of a hassle at times, but- Mm-hmm ... it allowed me to serve a lot of clients that probably wouldn't get therapy unless they had insurance.
Mm-hmm. And so I was thankful for that.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. And it does make it easier I think in terms of the whole marketing piece because people go and look at their insurance- Oh, yeah ... and find out who's in network and- Oh, yeah ... all of that sort of thing, and so-
Lindsay Benson: Yes ...
Gordon Brewer: I know i- in my practice, people ask me- Yeah
How I do my marketing, and you know, knock on wood, I've had to do very little because I am- Yes ... insurance-based, and you're right. Yes. You have to accept the fact that you're gonna get a little bit lower rate, but- Mm-hmm ... I think it's gotten a lot better over the last few years as far as what- Yeah ... what insurance- Yeah
is willing to pay for You know?
Lindsay Benson: Right ...
Gordon Brewer: therapy.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah, I mean, I can remember for 10 years Blue Cross Blue Shield hadn't raised their rate at all, and then they have- Mm-hmm ... in the last year, so, so that's nice to see that they're raising their rates. But yeah, it helps you have a consistent practice. You're gonna know that you're always gonna have, Psychology Today alone, people are selecting their insurance and finding you that way.
No one's really clicking self-pay, you know? Right. So if you're self-pay, you definitely have to have a really strong um, foundation of referral sources in play and- Mm-hmm ... and marketing yourself,
Gordon Brewer: yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Yeah. There's, there's a lot of different trade-offs you have to weigh because certainly- Yes
you don't have to worry about all the billing and dealing with insurance companies- Mm-hmm ... which is time-consuming- Yeah ... and that sort of thing. Yes. Yeah. So I know, I know, uh, Lindsay, you had, um, you've done a lot of work with people just around, particularly therapists, around burnout and just feeling- Mm-hmm
overwhelmed and that sort of thing. Yeah. And so what are, what are some of the things you see, and what are the things that you're learning about all of that?
Lindsay Benson: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so several years ago, and I, I'd already been working with therapists for a long time, I would, see the same pattern that I had seen in myself actually, you know?
Um, you know- Mm-hmm ... I, I'm just a few... I'm a little bit ahead of the people that I'm turning back around and reaching my hand out to kind of help from the lessons that I've learned. And so, um, recognizing, therapists are so good at taking care of everyone else and put themselves last often. Mm-hmm.
And the pattern that that then creates in their central nervous system, and that plays into them experiencing burnout. Mm-hmm. And pe- them not really noticing it. You know, like, not really, not really tracking it. Maybe they notice they're tired, maybe... But they're like, "Oh, it's just 'cause I didn't sleep," or, "Oh, I, maybe I need to see a few less clients."
But it's, it's not just a one-night sleep kinda tired. It's like a real central nervous system shutdown, burnout, exhaustion led by their desire to help people, the, and also impacted by the intensity of the work that we do. And just the fact that our central nervous system is taking on more than it's really intended to, and we're listening to trauma for six to seven hours a day.
Mm-hmm. And even though we've figured out a way to, present stable and balanced in the session, our nervous system is still taking the hit. And it doesn't matter how good of a therapist we are, that is inevitable because we are human, and we all have a central nervous system. So knowing that about myself and going on that journey for myself and how to support myself and my system, I started recognizing all these therapists that I was seeing, they needed the same information.
And so because I was working with them one-on-one, I'm sharing all that information. Mm-hmm. But then I recognize at a larger scope, we've gotta start talking about this and doing more. So just ner- noticing people's burnout, you know, central nervous system response chronic exhaustion overwhelm, shutdown.
You know, they do their seven hours of therapy and then they can't get off the couch at the end of the day. Their quality of life isn't great. They're not really having fun. They're not really enjoying them- they're dragging themselves through their day-to-day life for the sake of- Mm-hmm ... being a good therapist.
And so, yeah, starting to in- you know, integrating that into my own work individually with them, and then expanding it to offering CEUs and other things around this topic for therapists. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And obviously, central nervous system is such a hot word, and I'm so thankful that it is. The last few years- it's really everywhere. And that is great. I'm excited for that because I think we all need to be more cognizant of how our own- Mm-hmm ... system is showing up in the room. Because it's not just about the burnout, it's also about- How well we're able to be present for our clients
Gordon Brewer: yeah
Lindsay Benson: And they're coming in, and their nervous systems are completely dysregulated, and we have to hold the space and stay regulated so we can help co-regulate.
Gordon Brewer: So what are you finding that helps people with all of this? I mean, as far as- Yeah ... therapists and that kind of thing, yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. Yeah, so what I encourage therapists to do is kind of come up with a daily self-care plan, and through that they need to weave in just little things, micro practices, maybe 60 seconds, 90 seconds, because let's face it we have, like, 10 minutes, you know, between each client, so we don't have an abundance of time.
Mm-hmm. We're doing this work. We're usually seeing people back to back, so we need small things that are gonna pack a big punch. So we've come up with, okay, here's some ideas. I like to come up with lots of different what I call, like, hacks, um, for your system, and teach them, and then give them, like, a menu so they can kind of choose.
So a lot of that is just gonna be, like, we do some tapping. So some of the things taken from, like, EFT tapping can be really helpful, 60 seconds of tapping. So, you know, we've got different points that we can do while we're just sitting in our therapy chair, um, after our client has left. Mm-hmm. And we do 60 seconds of tapping to kind of reset the system, discharge the stress that we just took on.
And then other different somatic movements that we're getting up, we're moving our body. Um, so a lot of different, different, uh, techniques and strategies with it, but it's really the recognition of what's your system feel like when it's regulated? When do you notice it shift into another state in your session or between sessions?
And then taking responsibility for that and doing something to help support your system with these different techniques that you can weave into your day, 90 seconds there, two minutes on your lunch break, all of those different things. So it's really just a continual dedication to supporting yourself while you're supporting everybody else.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think, uh, you know, it's, it's... Y- you bring up something that I think is so true for so many of us, and I know even in my own journey just really kind of learning this, is that we're, we are so focused on others and really-
Lindsay Benson: Yes ...
Gordon Brewer: hearing what's going on with others. Yes. And it comes out of a genuine desire to try to help people.
Right. But we don't recognize the toll it takes on our own- psyche and our own, you know-
...
Gordon Brewer: Central nervous system, you, as you said. Um- Definitely ... so- Definitely ... yeah, and I- Yeah ... and I think, yeah, absolutely, you've got to- Mm-hmm ... have those daily rituals and those daily- Yeah ... things that you do to, to kinda- Right
help, you know, recharge your battery.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be big things. It doesn't have to be an hour here, an hour there. Like, we don't have time for that. But it's small, I mean, we, we can. It's great if you make time for that. But, like, during the workday especially, we need things that are one to two minutes, um, that are really gonna kinda give us a bang for our buck of, like, how do I help support my system?
And then also it's, like, starting to notice the nuance of your own system. And yeah, and it can be ex- it's extremely helpful when you, when you start to integrate this into your day-to-day schedule as a therapist. Then at the end of the day, you don't feel so exhausted and worn, worn out,
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Lindsay Benson: You can then go enjoy the rest of your, your evening and spend it doing things you wanna do because we're accumulating it every day. It doesn't matter if we got off work and we said, "Wow that day was totally fine and I feel okay." We're accumulating stress all the time. The body wasn't really meant to sit perfectly still with a smile on our face, nodding yes, while someone is unloading extreme trauma.
You know, if we were listening to that from our friend or family member, we're gonna respond. Our hands, we're gonna be emotive. Mm-hmm. Our hands are gonna move. We might get up and go give them a hug. Like, we're gonna do some kind of physical expression of that emotion, and we don't do that as, in our job as therapists, but the system still needs the discharge.
Mm-hmm. And so that's why we've got to give it outlets for the discharge, or it's accumulating, you know, in my case, 20 years of therapy, um- Mm-hmm ... that I've just, my body's held in, and I might be think- cognitively saying, "I'm doing great at this job," but my body is exhausted and heavy and worn out, and my nervous system is maxed out.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, in the, in those practices what do most people tend to find most helpful with those kind of daily practices of self-care? Well- I know for me it's journaling- Yeah ... uh, is a big one for me.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah, like you want examples of the things that we do?
Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Okay. Yeah. So anything you can... You know, journaling is great. I- definitely movement. We have to move our bodies. Goes back to what I just mentioned, and that can be, you know, a big workout, but really it can look like a 10-minute walk. It doesn't have to be intense, and oftentimes that's not really what the body wants, but, like, gentle movement.
So doing some different, like, yoga movements during between our sessions, just some, like, arm swings that we have, sun salutations. Even just, like leg lifts, so like you're standing in place and you're picking up one leg at a time, because we're sitting all day long. Mm-hmm. That's another aspect.
We're sitting all day long. And the psoas is what holds a lot of our fight/flight energy, and so that's right there. It's like connecting our legs to our body. And so ours is typically tight. We're sitting all day long, and then if you think of, like, fight or flight and you think about running, and it's, it's tight.
Mm-hmm. So just moving that around. So different movements, different yoga positions. The tapping, like I said. We've got, like, the karate chop that's really easy for people to do- Mm-hmm ... where you're just taking the, the fleshy part from your pinky to down the palm of your hand, and you're hitting it together, and you're taking deep breaths Because that's helping release a lot of tension and stress in the body.
So really just small things- Mm-hmm ... like that. A lot of them, you know, we have a Instagram channel that we share a lot of these things, and a YouTube channel, Divine Legacy Collective. There's tons of free videos, and it's specially made for therapists, and it's- Mm-hmm ... anything from a four-minute video to a 15-minute video.
So you can choose what you wanna do, 'cause there's so much- Mm-hmm ... information, it's hard for me to exactly share. Yeah, sure. Sure, sure. But it's, it's really those hacks. It's just like I have- Mm-hmm ... 60 seconds, what can I do?
Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Well, I know, uh, to change- Yeah ... gears just a little bit. Yeah. I know one of the things that I saw from your website is you do some intensives with people.
Yeah. And- Yes. Yeah, and so, yeah, a- and to me, that is a great use of time, in that you're gonna get more bang for your buck with not only therapy, but also- Just, um, probably a little more income by offering,
Lindsay Benson: Yeah ...
Gordon Brewer: intensives.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Lindsay Benson: I love intensives. I have, you know, on Fridays that's... I typically have, like, Friday open, and I use that for intensives, so anywhere from three to four hours.
So I'll block off that window, and if the client gets tired sooner than that, like, we can wrap up early. But I've found that people just, people really love it. Right now I'm, other than this Friday, I'm booked for the next six Fridays with intensives. And so it was kind of surprising.
When I first put it on my website, I was like, "You know, I'll just throw this idea out there." But then I have more and more clients who really like to do it. And, and some of that is I have clients that live an hour and a half away, and they don't want- Mm-hmm ... to come every week, and so they're gonna come once a month for an intensive for four hours.
That's more, you know, beneficial for their time, and we get- Mm-hmm ... a month's worth of therapy done in a day. And so- Right ... you know. And then other clients that are really kind of in big situations, intense situations, and they just feel like an hour is not cutting it, and so they will do, you know, two intensives a, a month.
Or, the... yesterday, someone who comes once a week, and every once in a while she just wants to do an intensive, so she's like, "Can I get booked for an intensive soon?" So it's really been surprising to me that people are taking to it so much, but I understand because we get so much accomplished.
And yeah- Mm-hmm ... to me it's a little bit easier than seeing four different clients back to back, you know- Yeah ... 'cause I'm just working with one client for four hours, so I don't have to, like, switch gears as much. I'm really- Mm-hmm ... in the zone, and it feels nice and relaxed. Like, I don't have to rush.
We have plenty of time. And I think that's- Mm-hmm ... what they like about it too because sometimes they come in and they're like, "Okay, all these things," and, and, you know, there's so much that we do. Okay, we're doing, we're doing EMDR, we're doing IFS, we're doing somatic ex- Like, there's so many modalities that we blend in- Mm-hmm
and I can do it in 50 minutes, but when you have a lot longer time it's a more relaxed experience for sure. R-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. And you feel less pressure yourself because you're- Yes ... not, not already thinking, oh, well, I've got to get ready for the next client. Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Exactly. Right. When the last- Yeah
10 minutes, inevitably when someone brings up something large and you look over and you have 10 minutes left and you're like, "Oh." Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah,
Lindsay Benson: yeah.
And you have to say- Yeah ... "We'll get to that next week," you know? And then- Mm-hmm ... nope, we've got plenty of time. So yeah, I've, I've been, like, really enjoying them and kind of surprised- that since adding that a few years ago that people really took, took it up. And that, but that also comes in with not taking insurance allows that to happen. Mm-hmm. That is really when I made that change because I can just, we can do it any way we want. Now, if you did take insurance, I'm sure you could still do an intensive and the client would just need to self-pay for the additional hours that their insurance- Yeah
isn't gonna cover.
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Yeah. So- Mm-hmm ... so you transitioned, and, and again, we'll get ourselves in a l- little tangent here, but-
Lindsay Benson: Yeah ...
Gordon Brewer: you transitioned away from accepting insurance?
Lindsay Benson: Yes.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: What was that process like?
Lindsay Benson: Um, it was a little scary, of course. Uh-huh. It was like a leap of faith, yeah, I had been, I, you know, I'd been back and forth. I thought about it for a long time before I did it, and I had a lot of peers that had done it before me, so I kind of got to watch and see, okay, they made it they made it. Mm-hmm. So that was helping in my confidence. But yeah, it was just a big leap of faith.
But my, my clients, I mean, most of my clients were able to continue with me, and the ones who needed to use their insurance, I, you know, passed them off to other therapists. And then- Mm-hmm ... to my surprise, I think that, you know, people are still willing to, to pay the rate. I think also for me, I would say, like, if someone's thinking about doing that, I would say it's really important that you have a good referral source, that you have a good website, um, that you have a lot of word of mouth marketing in your area.
And ideally, it's great if you have some niche areas that you like to focus on or, you know- Mm-hmm ... have several modalities that you're using because then it makes it more justifiable as, like, why they should come see you and pay cash versus see this other person doing the same thing who they could pay $20 and use their insurance for.
Mm-hmm. So kind of like setting yourself apart, I think helps it be more successful. And- Mm-hmm ... I have a lot of niche areas that I do, and I have a lot of different modalities that I do, and I bring in a lot of holistic stuff at this point in my practice, too. So it attracts people who are interested in kind of- Mm-hmm
integrating several different styles of things into a therapy hour.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think that's, uh, yeah, you know, people hear on this podcast all the time the importance of creating a niche for yourself-
Lindsay Benson: Yeah ...
Gordon Brewer: and, and making, yeah, and focusing in on that because you're gonna be a whole lot happier, and you're gonna probably- Yeah
get more clients that way as well.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Trying to figure out who your ideal client is.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Sure.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Well, L- Lindsay, I, I know we've got to be, uh, mindful of our time, but tell folks about, you've got some, a retreat coming up for therapists- Yeah ... and so- Yeah ... say some things about that.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah, definitely. So with the same kind of concepts in mind that we were just exploring, this retreat was born from that place. So I partner with my, my fellow therapist, Pam Nelson, who's also a trauma-informed yoga instructor, and we have a three-day retreat in Oklahoma, and it's set on a beautiful space in 180 acres on this beautiful 100-year-old lodge that we're overlooking a lake.
It's really serene and beautiful, and it is called The Sacred Art of Self-Preservation. And so it's all for therapists and healers to learn the things that we're talking about, how to track their own nervous system and practice- ... how to explore what parts of them are coming up in their therapy sessions and how to soothe them, and how to lead their sessions from their own inner wisdom or highest self.
And we have embodied practices, so this is not you're listening to a slideshow lecture and then that's that. You're experiencing them in real time. So there's yoga, yoga nidra, meditation- hiking. We're journaling in nature. It's a beautiful space, so we're utilizing that. We're outside a lot. We're doing somatic experiencing with the static movement and dance, and so it's really amazing.
This is our second year, and- ... so far most of the people from last year have signed up to come back because they said they couldn't believe that this was the EUs because it was so amazing and fun and- Mm-hmm ... completely different than the experience that we usually have because we're not coming to learn another technique to help our clients.
We're coming to learn how to help ourselves.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's great. And, um- Yeah ... tell folks how, where they can find out more about that.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. Divinelegacycollective.com or you can also follow us on Instagram at Divine Legacy Collective. That's also a place where we give lots of free tips. All these different things that we're talking about are little reels and videos that we share there that you can easily use, um, the same day that you see them,
Gordon Brewer: awesome. Awesome. Yeah. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary- Yeah ... for people to get to that easily. So- Yeah ... well, Lindsay, this has been great. I, thanks for- Yeah ... the work you're doing, and- Yeah ... hopefully we'll have another conversation before too long.
Lindsay Benson: Yeah. Great. Thank you so much.