The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer 0:00
This episode is brought to you by the solo to group practice webinar. It's a free webinar that you can find at practice of therapy.com slash group, and also brought to you by therapy notes therapy notes.com.

This is the practice of therapy podcast with Gordon Brewer, helping you to navigate your private practice journey.

This is session number 175 of the practice of therapy podcast. Hello, everyone. glad you've joined me. I'm Gordon Brewer. And if this is your first time listening to the podcast, glad you're with me. Glad you found us. Hope you'll come back for more and take time to subscribe to the podcast. Well, I'm really excited for you to get to hear from this guest of mine, Katherine Iscariot. And if you remember back in Episode 153, she was my guest then. And it was during the middle of last year. So a lot of the stuff around the COVID pandemic was really starting to amp up and we were really full force in it. Not that we're out of it now. But that was it was a great conversation. And I think you're going to love listening to Katherine, she started the tele therapists network. And you're going to get to hear her conversation with me just about how things have progressed with that. But also, just some of the things that she's learned over this last year and how she has been changed. And all of us have been changed by the COVID pandemic. So looking forward to you getting into that conversation with Katherine. She's just one of those people that was easy to talk to. And I enjoyed getting back together with her and just get learning from her wisdom, and particularly the fact that she's not only a psychotherapist, but she's also has an MBA. So she's got a unique perspective. And I love hearing from glad you're getting to hear from Katherine again, I wanted to let you know about a new resource I've got out there, it's a new free resource. And really, this came out of just some of the most common questions I get asked by my consulting clients and listeners to the podcast just around transitioning from being a solo provider, to bringing on other therapists in your group and having your own group practice. And because I've learned a lot in leading my own group practice, and it's been such an important part of my own professional journey, I wanted to create this resource. So I partner with my friend, Dr. David Hall over at Site Maven. But if you go over to practice of therapy.com slash group, you can access our free automated webinar that the title of it is just so low to group practice and adding more content, adding more therapists to grow your time and income. And in this webinar, David and I share some of the most important lessons that we've learned in our own private practice journeys, particularly as group practice owners. So we share a lot of practical tips and ways to kind of challenge your own self doubt around going into group practice and also share with you some of the major pitfalls to avoid when launching a group.

We also have some time limited bonuses and discounts that aren't exclusive for people that watch the watch the webinar to its into its end. So wherever you are in your practice journey, I want to invite you to go over to, again to practice of therapy.com slash group and go ahead and enroll and register for that webinar, you'll get some time choices of when you can, can be available for it. So you can really do it when it's convenient for you. And again, that's practice of therapy.com slash group. So be sure to check that out. That gets a great resource, and we're getting a lot of great feedback on that. And also, before we get to my conversation with Katherine, be sure to check out our sponsor for the podcast and that's therapy notes, therapy notes.com. They are the leading Electronic Health Record system for private practice owners and those of us in the mental health field. As I've said before, they're who I use them I practice and I'm just getting more and more impressed with this platform all the time. They have recently updated some things and it's just some great updates. They not only have

a way for you to schedule and send appointment reminders. But there's a patient portal that is second to none that has telehealth built into it. And so you get all of that within the therapy notes, therapy notes platform. Again, if you'll go to therapy notes.com. And be sure and use the coupon code or promo code Gordon, just geo are do when you can try them out for two months for free. So it's a win win situation, you can try them out, and really kind of test the wheels so to speak, get behind the driver's seat for therapy notes, I don't think you'll be disappointed. So check them out therapy notes, calm. And so without further ado, here's my conversation with repeat guest, Catherine s scare.

Hello, everyone. And I'm so excited to have back with me. Dr. Catherine Iscariot. Welcome back, Catherine.

Kathryn Esquer 6:11
Thanks for having me. It's good to be back.

Gordon Brewer 6:14
Yeah, I was thinking this morning as I was driving into the office. I was. I'm really, really looking. I was looking forward to talking to you again. Cuz this is just, you're just one of those fun people to talk to. So glad you're back.

Unknown Speaker 6:27
Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Gordon Brewer 6:29
Yeah. So Well, there's a lot that we were talking about before we started recording. But, you know, maybe a place to start for folks that maybe don't know about you is you tell folks a little bit about your private practice journey and what you're doing now and, and we'll go from there.

Kathryn Esquer 6:50
Sounds great. So like I said, I'm a licensed psychologist, but I actually went to school in a dual degree program for leadership and organizational consulting. So I have a Doctorate of clinical psychology and an MBA. And those degrees were integrated. So I didn't just do an MBA and do a Psy D, you were integrated. So I was able to have some overlap and see the work from the MBA courses into the psyche courses and vice versa. Right. So it set me up really well. I went into consulting after graduation. And I loved it. But it wasn't the lifestyle that I saw myself living the rest of my life, especially when I wanted to have kids. So thankfully, my path, you know, allowed me to go back and do a second residency and clinical psychology. And I was able to get licensed and I have been practicing now I originally grew up in rural Pennsylvania, I moved away for about 10 years to do schooling postdoc, the consulting gig met my husband, we lived in cities, it was great. And then when I got pregnant, we were like, all right, like I can't picture raising my kids anywhere else but where I grew up. So we move back to rural pa and that is where I have been for the past coming up on four years now Time flies, and my my clinical work I am integrated into a primary care office. So my therapy office is right next to my consulting physicians offices, exam rooms. And as I was telling you before we hopped on this call, you know, it's been a wild ride over the past year to not only be have gone through COVID everything around COVID myself, my family my work, but then also my my my office, my place the nurses and the administrative staff who helped me run my day to day they were the ones on the frontline, I could go back and I worked from home for several months, but my teammates are on the frontline. And I've just been so proud of them and just in such awe and admiration of how day in and day out they they continue to fight the good fight. And we've been rolling out, you know, multiple vaccine clinics a week in our tiny rural office. And these nurses and physicians, they they keep the ball rolling, and they rise to the occasion. So so that's where I'm at now. It's been quite the year. The year.

Gordon Brewer 9:13
Yeah, it has been I was just remembering that you were on the podcast almost a year ago. And boy have things changed since then. Like I think, you know, hopefully, I think we're charged starting to get at the end of the tunnel. And I don't think the light is really a train so that's good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so yeah, so what what did you learn through all of this? I mean, what, what has changed as far as your perspective of things through COVID?

Kathryn Esquer 9:50
Great question. So you know, in the middle of COVID as we talked about during the last episode, you and I chatted together I need the therapist network which we are becoming You know, the professional organization for the next generation of therapists to go to to get their needs met. And, you know, it's been really great to have that support throughout COVID. And I've been able to rely on my newfound peers in a way that I was not able to do remotely at the startup COVID. And so, I've been hearing a lot of different things from everybody. It's really neat to hear all different perspectives from all over the US, we also have international members. So hearing what's going on in India, or Australia, or the UK has been really fascinating and really, I think, connects us across wide distances and time zones. So I think one of the biggest things I'm hearing is that I shouldn't say here, and one of the biggest things I'm noticing is that a lot of us are completely full and above capacity as private practitioners. And we are have waitlist in my along we have we have, you know, we're having trouble finding referrals. But then I'm also seeing a lot of people are having a good chunk of people who, you know, are having trouble filling their caseload. And to me, it's this big question of how do we reduce this this gap? How do we help the clinicians looking for clients and looking, you know, having space to help people? How do we match them and get them get them set up an appropriate setup, not upline referral, but an appropriate referral to, you know, from these clinicians who are overbooked and overworked? I'm seeing that and it's been a big question in my head, you know, on the network. On the tell therapists network, we've been, you know, we do referrals almost every day, someone's asking for a referral for someone via telehealth and telehealth helps, you know, we're able to practice within our state jurisdictions, but I'm really still seeing, you know, there needs to be a better system. And I had quite haven't quite I haven't quite figured out what that is.

Gordon Brewer 11:53
Right. Right. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, I think it's a problem we've got that really come out through through COVID is just this whole. Well, licensure portability is one thing, but also just a lot of confusion for people around the different types of licensure, and that sort of thing. And so it's just, yeah, and so, seeing that here, as well, we get calls, where, you know, we've been fortunate in that, where I just hired a new new therapist and her her, her schedule is already full. And so I'm in the process of hiring an intern now from our local university, his undergrad or grad student, and, and I anticipate that there that will fill up as well. And so it creates a whole different kind of stress for people to be fall as opposed to the stress of, Oh, I need more clients.

Kathryn Esquer 12:54
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, there was some discussion, one of the groups about how, um, over the years that has changed from clients saying, calling and saying, I'd like to make an appointment to clients calling and saying, Are you accepting new patients? It is now it is changed the dynamic of assuming we are full and that it's hard to get in versus the assumption that we have room and we can help. And I think that's a very interesting observation. Right? And I'm sure you've heard of, you know, the big complaint is, you know, therapists don't return voicemails or whatnot. And I can imagine that, you know, if you don't have administrative staff, it could be hard to keep up with those voicemails, right, asking for help. Right, you know, and then the burden of the ethical burden of you know, helping them find a referral when maybe your referral sources are tapped out

Gordon Brewer 13:47
with you, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that that just kind of reminds me of something, we were kind of chatting about a header before we started recording, is just knowing when to outsource stuff, of being able to, you know, take on, you know, one of the places I always recommend that a person start in their practice, when they start to feel overwhelmed with just all that they're doing in a practice, particularly a solo practitioner, one of the, I think one of the biggest returns on investment that you can get, is hiring someone to handle making appointments and doing as I refer to them in our practice, our intake coordinator. And so they, you know, they're handling the phones and they're handling, getting people scheduled and getting the paperwork to people and all of that, because that's very time consuming. And if you're not actually seeing clients, you're, that's, that's where you're your best. That's the best use of your time as a clinician, not doing all the administrative stuff. Yeah,

Kathryn Esquer 14:53
absolutely. Especially when you think about you know, your what you what you collect for your hourly rate versus hourly The rate of any administrative assistant, you can hire, um, you know that that is a return on investment almost immediately if they free up some of your time and you can see more clients.

Gordon Brewer 15:09
Right. Right. And it also keeps you from kind of missing potential clients along the way. You know, because a lot. Again, my intake coordinator tells me all the time, when she get talks to clients, new clients is that they're always always seem kind of surprised that they got a call back, or that Oh, yeah, or that she answered the phone, you know, we've got it set up to where she's working remotely, but she can, you know, if the phone rings, she can answer him. So yeah, so all those, and with technology now, we can do all that. So,

Kathryn Esquer 15:44
yeah, exactly. I think it's so important for us to tap it as therapists and psychologists and counselors to tap into our communities, whether it be our state, or State community, our professional community, or, you know, we have the 12 therapists network where we all refer to each other and help build each other's practices. Because I think that a lot of a lot of the people seeking mental health treatment are maybe falling through the cracks, because they don't know where to turn and add, there's no blame to be put, you know, we have finite energy and time, we can't save the world. But if you can come up with a system or a community that helps it easy for you to find referrals, or at least generate referrals to provide to people, I think, you know, that that could help your stress. And also, you know, the larger climate of mental health.

Gordon Brewer 16:33
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so in your group, the teletherapy network? What, what sort of stress points or pain points? Are you hearing kind of themes around?

Kathryn Esquer 16:45
You know, one thing that I think was interesting is, you know, the, the advent of the mobile or the the mental health apps, the talkspace, the better help? Yeah, and I think that there is a really big pain point here around, you know, the new clinicians or clinicians who have moved states and are becoming newly licensed and need need income, but don't have time to wait or feel pressure. They feel like some of their only options are these companies that, in my opinion, pay absolutely horrendously and not what we worth and, you know, the good that they might be doing for the clients, you know, connecting them with easily accessible mental health resources. And my opinion might be out, outweighed by the fact that I think they're diluting and bringing down the value of our services. I think that's I think that's been a big discussion on the network. And and I think a pain point, what's your perspective? Yeah, it's,

Gordon Brewer 17:49
it's interesting, because I've actually had a therapist that I had hired that decided to just go do that full time. And one part of the discussion I had to have with them is just being able to understand how that's different and being self employed and normal that because I think a lot of times, people having worked for other people working for agencies. Yeah, it might seem like, what they're getting paid. Looks good. But then you have to subtract from that self employment and what it means to be a contractor versus an employee somewhere. So we've got that group of people, but also you're exactly right with. One of the one of the pitfalls that I think people make when they're going into private practice is they undervalue what they're worth. I know, I had a conversation with Kelly Higdon and Miranda Palmer, from zeny. Me and we talk about that, that very, very thing, just, you know, how do you determine what your worth and what, what, you know, what your services are worth? And I think it's probably a lot more than we give ourselves credit for. And so especially when

Kathryn Esquer 19:11
companies like this are moving the bar so much lower than it ever was before, if we're talking about insurances aren't reimbursing? Well, we'll look at these companies and what they're reimbursing and part of the problem is that they're not as you know, like insurance companies, the contracts aren't transparent, those weren't going through the process, right. And so unless you can connect with someone, like thankfully, we do on the network, and we can discuss other people's experiences, you know, within bounds of confidentiality, and obviously within the within the limits of what was confidential and what was not with our contract. But since we can, you know, describe our experiences like you might have a totally different experience, or you might not know what you're getting into until you're into it. So I think it's, I think it's a slippery slope. I think we need to be careful as a profession about our value. And, and and creating our services, helping our services become more accessible. I think that's a delicate balance.

Gordon Brewer 20:08
Right, right. And then the other thing too, is that, you know, I've had some of those services approached me about, you know, possibly being podcast sponsors. And when I really, really started looking into what they provide and what they do, for for therapists, I just had some reservations, it felt like some of the things that were being done were on, were borderline unethical. For example, just, you know, giving bonuses based on the number of words that you would text with a client or the number, amount of time you spent with a client outside of a session and your accessibility. And to me, that's just a little unethical. In my concern to you is just how do they measure that? So somebody's got to be knowing what you're, you know, what you're texting and all that kind of stuff. So you're exactly right, Katherine, I think you got to, you got to proceed with caution. And really kind of look at the way all that out. So, yeah, so another thing I know, that we talked about before we started recording is something new that I, that I'm just starting to get wind of. And that is the open note. policy that's out there. And so you want to say some more about that.

Kathryn Esquer 21:31
Yeah, that was a discussion, we had a couple consultations about it on the tele therapist network, because it was something that really hasn't been spoken about too broadly, or, or, or widely in, in our field. And that's that the Federal cares act of the 21st century, which has been around a while like, this is not new. But they had a due date of actually last fall that any EA or any certified EHR system will have to grant access or remove any barriers form the form from the patient to access their health records for their their clinical notes, right. So you know, what this looks like is, you know, large hospital systems, or anyone who uses a certified EHR, which are major EHR, these are certified with, forgive me, the organization at the government slipping my name, but they're certified with the government, they're their highest, they're very high on like, therapy notes is not one, simple practices, not one, a lot of the ones that we use in private practice are not certified EHR doesn't mean they're not good. They're just more practice management systems. And but if you're a certified EHR, like my offices, and you have to reduce barriers, so that means the patient, come April 21, will be able to log on to their client portal. And they will be able to see the clinical notes as soon as I sign them. And I think this, this brings up a whole new dynamic in terms of clinical documentation for mental health, I am not necessarily against it, because I can see the the utility, the utility in it, right, if you go see a primary care doctor, and you can't remember their recommendations for how often to take aspirin, you can go on and you can see you have immediate access. But I think that we need to proceed with caution, as you said earlier, with how we're documenting things, and also how we're communicating with our clients about what's being documented. I think it'll ultimately help us have greater transparency and accountability in the field. But I think it's just such a big shift right now that a lot of us are having a hard time with that.

Gordon Brewer 23:37
Right. Right. Yeah. And, and that's really kind of the cornerstone of what we do in mental health is just client confidentiality, and that sort of thing. And so, you know, you worry about other people getting a hold of those clinical notes and the wrong person, getting them in that sort of thing. And so, but you're right, I think it to be more of shine more of a positive light on it. It's kind of make it make us better clinicians with our documentation and, and being more accurate with things. And

Kathryn Esquer 24:10
absolutely, I think it could also win when done appropriately can improve rapport. Um, you know, what I've been doing with my clients is in preparation of this date coming is over the past month, every single session, I've been reading them their note, before they leave, yeah, as a way, as a way for them to get familiar. I probably won't continue this forever. But there's a way for them to get familiar with my language, the clinical wording so that they can have reactions immediately in session. So that, you know, down the road, if they do choose to look in their notes, hopefully there won't be any shock or surprise, and they will feel comfortable coming and talking to me if there is something Right, right.

Gordon Brewer 24:49
Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot to think about a lot of heads around and I think it could cause some anxiety for us as therapists just to think about that because I know that Again, that is one thing that people can get behind in very quickly is their documentation. And the, the, the more you're behind, the more you're behind. And so being able to stay on top of your documentation is an important piece and just being clinically sound, but also, from a business standpoint, because, you know, with like, a lot of electronic health record systems. You don't, you don't get paid until you do your note. So, yeah. So

Kathryn Esquer 25:34
if this could help it, if we start doing our notes in session are becomes part of that part of it, you can make it part of the therapeutic process. Right. Um, so I think that hopefully can help. Right? It's, I think it's, again, it's just a big shift from the way we've been trained and taught and done. That, you know, it's a challenge. And I've been challenging myself to look at this as How can I make this a benefit? How can I use this to help my work as opposed? As opposed to be more cumbersome for me?

Gordon Brewer 26:00
Yeah, yeah. And I know the the other thing that we talked about before we started recording, and I think this is a good kind of segue into this, because is being able to, to chat with other therapists and other people in the field, about these types of things of being able to get that support. And what's your tell us? I guess, say some more about what you're learning about the importance of consultation? Yeah, all of that.

Kathryn Esquer 26:32
You know, I thought I was consulting, I thought I was doing well. I'm a pretty social person. I like staying in touch with people. I like learning. I'm on listservs. I'm on Mon forums. But I didn't realize how much I was missing out there. Until the tele therapist network, you know, I brought the tele therapists network into my life and other people's lives and started using it regularly. And it's become quite the quite the spotlight on on how I had no idea what was going on, even within other licensed professionals, LPC is or mfts. I'm a psychologist, so I'm a part of the Pennsylvania Psychological Association, I had no idea what was going on with my other colleagues means and the resources that these organizations were putting out that I could get access to, I just didn't know they existed. So I think it was really interesting. It really was a humbling experience to realize, you know, as much as I thought I stayed in the loop. Oh, goodness, I was not in the loop as much as I was in my own loop. But I didn't know there were other loops out there to be a part of. Right. Right. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 27:45
So

Kathryn Esquer 27:46
you know, I think condo consulting with peers is incredibly important, not only for obviously, you know, for our clinical work, you know, consultation is the best quality control we have for clinical services for therapy services, we don't have a checkbox of quality control we have here is to tell us what's going on. But it's also so good for our energy levels, you know, I know now that I am part of a group that keeps me up to date on what's going on in their world, and I keep them up to date and what's going on with mine. And I now know, I don't feel like I'm missing something I don't feel like I always have to be scanning for the next law that's being passed or the next resource that comes that's coming out. You know, I think it's really good for for my peace of mind, almost I know that I have that group to rely on. And then also it's really good for my burnout control. Um, it's it's incredible. I mean, I think we know this as therapists, but how much it it helps us to talk to others about our experiences. And in terms of fear consultation, have our peers share their experiences and hear from them. You know, that's the power of group therapy right there. And I think that we underestimate the power of community in our in our burnout. It might seem like another to do it might seem like another expense, but it's ultimately, you know, helping us be better people and better clinicians and happier along the lines.

Gordon Brewer 29:13
Right. Right. And I couldn't agree more. I've just, you know, finishing up with one of my focus groups that are started and one of the one of the things that I think is particularly important for people that are in solo practice, that can get really lonely. And I think, you know, being able to bounce ideas off of other people and being able to, you know, I think to just just ethically we need to do and particularly on the clinical side, need to be doing regular consults with people. There are some people out there that still even though they've been licensed for years, still do regular supervision. Yeah, and just just to get get other eyes. And yours on, on the things that they're working with, with their clients. And, and I know just on the business side of things, absolutely get somebody that's going to mentor you and coach you through that, because there's so much there, there's, you know, if you think about it, there is so much to learn just on the clinical side of things. And then to add to that is, you know, with what, you know, you've, you've learned it, you went through school to do learn, that's the whole business side, which I'm still just, you know, just amazed that getting a psychology degree and also, an MBA is just amazing. Yeah. So but, yeah, so already, all those things. You know, I learned stuff due every day. And I know, every time I've been part of a group, it has just helped me exponentially with my, with my practice and moving forward.

Kathryn Esquer 30:59
Absolutely. It levels you up, it levels, the whole group up. It's incredible. I think that you know, yes, like, we all know, private practice can be pretty isolating at times. And I think that's a pretty big, you know, warning when you go into it, but I don't know how much, you know, agencies or organizations who employ clinicians have been thinking about this isolation, as we've been working from home all over this past year and to work continue to work from home. You know, now, I think there might be more isolation, there are new isolation coming in, in those forms where maybe there wasn't like that before.

Gordon Brewer 31:35
Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I think it's kind of coming full circle around, I think one of the things that we did learn from COVID is, is that not to take her contact with others for granted. And it's just, you know, and I think it's, you know, now that we're his home, he has always said, we're coming out of the woods or coming out of the tunnel. It feels fear, there's a sense of being able to relax more, with just with everything, not not only social contact, but just just in our own psyche and our own sense of anxiety and, and all of that, I think is starting to turn so

Kathryn Esquer 32:20
we're feeling a little safe again. Yeah.

Gordon Brewer 32:22
Yeah. Good way to put it. Good way to put it. So. Yeah. So well, Catherine, I got to be mindful of your time and I'm so glad we've reconnected and I'm sure we'll do it again. But tell folks how they can get in touch with you and and tell them a little more about that tele tele therapy networker?

Kathryn Esquer 32:42
Sure, sure. Yeah, so um, you can get in touch with me, I am active on Instagram, you can find me I run the tele therapist network account. That's at Tella therapist dot network. And we're also online at www dot Tella therapist network.com, you can find out more that we do there we do so much. I can't believe how much we've grown. We do at least once a week live consultations for you to drop into we have specialty consultations like EMDR and coaching, we have a new book club, we read a book together every month or it's optional, you certainly don't have to read with us. And then we meet. And we also have business and practice building master classes at least once a month, if not more, and you get access to all that we have over a dozen in our library and one new one every month. So it's a pretty pretty robust platform. So if you join us, I would love to be able to give your listeners a really, really big discount. So if you use the code ti p t, and enter that when you check out at tell therapists network.com you'll get $50 off your first month. So I really hope if you're looking for that peer support and that relief in knowing that you're not missing things. Come join us try us out, send me a message talk to me. I love connecting as I said, and thank you, Gordon. It's always a

Gordon Brewer 34:08
pleasure. Yes. Well, that's so generous. And we'll have, of course links in the show notes in the show summary for people to get easy access to that. And yeah, that's I can just tell you from what I know about Katherine and just know about what she's been doing. It's a great resource. And I'm sure we'll have you'll be hearing more about that for me as well. So thanks, Catherine for being on the podcast.

Well, it was so great having Katherine on the podcast again. And you know, one of the things about doing this podcast every week and getting to do all the great interviews that I do is that I get to have First of all, just get to build some great relationships with people, but also just get to talk about some really interesting and pertinent stuff as relates to a to our field. And I'm so glad Catherine was on here. Again, we really talked about a lot of different things, didn't we? So, but anyway, be sure and check her out. She's at the tele therapist network. And there'll be link links here in the show summary, I in the show notes. And it's such a wonderful thing that she created. And it was really out of the heart of the pandemic, and really looking for ways for us to connect and, and find connection during during a tough time. But it is just so valuable. And, you know, I think we can learn so much from each other and really stand out what I do. And I know, with my, the mastermind group that I'm involved in, and then also the focus groups that I lead have just really been just very rich in, in what we can learn from each other. And so, yeah, be sure and check out Catherine's, the tele therapists network. And so again, there's links here in the show notes. Also before Yeah, before you get too far away, but our I should say, I started to say before you go, but you really can't do this until you guys. So let me backtrack here. Be sure and check out the solo to group practice webinar. And it's about adding more therapists to grow your time and income. And you can get to that by just going to a practice of therapy.com slash group and this is a free resource for you, all you do is you go in there, click on that link, or go to that that page, and pick the time that you want to watch the webinar. And be sure to stay till the end, because there are some great bonuses and discounts you can take advantage of by watching by watching the webinar. So be sure to check that out. And again, I'm grateful to my friend and colleague, Dr. David hall for for partnering for allowing me to partner with him rather on this, this particular project. But again, check that out at practice of therapy.com slash group and, and as always a big thanks to our sponsor for the podcast. And that's therapy, notes, therapy notes calm. They're the leading Electronic Health Record system for mental health providers in private practice. They're who I use in my practice. And I'm just more and more impressed every week with all the things that they're adding to that platform, and how it is growing. And just as so versatile, versatile, rather, and the ways that you can use it. So be sure to check it out therapy notes.com. And if you'll be sure and use the promo code Gordon just Glr do and you can try them out for two months for free. So be sure to check that out. So well. That's another episode under the belt. It's hard to believe we're up to 175 already. But anyway, I'm so excited. For some future episodes. I've got my good friend Uriah Guilford coming up. If you haven't, quick shout out to your eyes podcast, the the productive therapist he's Uriah and I are in a mastermind group together. And I've really enjoyed getting to know him. But just want to say a quick shout out to that to him, we're gonna be we've got an upcoming episode coming here on this podcast. And I think you're really going to enjoy hearing from Uriah. He's just a, just a great guide just got a lot of great ideas around productivity. And he's another full focus planner user. And so we talked about that. And you can check that out. If you want to know about the full focus planner, you can go to practice of therapy.com slash full focus planner and learn more about that. So but I didn't mean to put all that here in at the end, but it did. So there it is. But well, thanks again for joining me and be sure and subscribe to the podcast wherever you might be listening to it and also share with your friends if you find that this podcast is helpful. share it with others but also let me know about it. I love getting emails from people and I'm so grateful to you for being with me on the on this journey. So take care folks, and we'll be talking with you again next week.

You have been listening to the practice of therapy podcast with Gordon Brewer. Please visit us at practice of therapy.com for more information, resources and tools to help you in starting building and growing your private practice. And if you haven't done So already, please sign up to receive the free private practice startup guide and practice of therapy.com. The information in this podcast is intended to be accurate and authoritative concerning the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host guests or producers are rendering legal accounting or clinical advice. If you need a professional, you should find the right person for them.