The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really looking forward to getting to hear from Deborah Brown.
Deborah, welcome. Glad you're here.
Deborah Brown: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you asking me on and, um- Yeah ... planning in advance with me because I know it's been, you asked me about a month and a half, and like being able- Yeah ... to work in a schedule and work that in was... I appreciate that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.
I just had a conversation about, uh, about schedules and calendars and stuff with my friend, uh, James Marland that I recorded previously today, and that was a topic is about how our calendars can tend to rule our lives. But, uh, anyway- Yeah ... Deborah, as, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Deborah Brown: I actually went back to school later in life. I used to work in business and, you know, I had my son young, and so I went into business and I, so I sort of paused my, my direction of, um, going into therapy. That was kind of something naturally I always wanted to do. I, I, um, I enjoy people, I enjoy talking to people.
I love being in a, in an arena in my life where I really get to talk to people that really want progress and growth in their lives, you know? And as I get older, I choose those people in my inner circle for friends. But I didn't do that when I was younger necessarily, right? And so really being in a, in an arena where people can, you really get to help people move forward.
I've worked in treatment centers with teenagers with mental health struggles for a couple of, for two years. Mm-hmm. I worked with addicts in treatment centers for two years. It's really my heart because, um, I just really think it's so beautiful to, that, that struggle and then wanting to do better and, and make significant changes in your life.
And it's scary, too. And so now I decided, you know, it's kind of around the pandemic, like a lot of people I decided to do- Right ... it was around right before that time I decided to, um, open my own private practice rather than kind of go into I thought maybe I wanted to work in treatment centers for a career, and then I thought, well-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm
Deborah Brown: this kind of opened up the door to work from home. And so yeah, now I, I have my own private practice, Debbie Trent Brown Therapy, and I also work for a company that takes insurance 'cause I only take private for it. So I kind of do both. And, uh, working from home has been a benefit because I do get to practice all those skills and have, have a lot of control over my schedule, which we don't always have.
But yeah. No.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Deborah Brown: Kind of where I landed where I'm at.
Gordon Brewer: I listen. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That's great. And I know something that you're, uh, you're passionate about is just, um, how we can be more mindful, and that's something, mindfulness is something that all of us probably talk with our clients about at some point or another.
But like most of us that are therapists, a lot of times we just can't practice what we preach very well. But I think you- Mm-hmm ... have, um, as we were discussing before we started recording, just kind of- Have some observations about that and just, you know- Yeah ... what is it that can help us be more mindful with ourselves?
Deborah Brown: What I notice a lot of times is people think of mindfulness and they think, "Oh, so I need to meditate." And, and they think of this like, "I gotta sit quiet and control my thoughts." And I thought, well, that's really great if you're a monk and you live in that environment where you can do that, but that's not really what mindfulness is.
Mindfulness starts from the moment that we wake up in the morning and how we move throughout our day to be very intentional, right? So even when you first get out of bed in the morning, how do you... So mindfulness is really grounding yourself. And a lot of times, I, I, uh, will say to clients a lot of times, "How do you ground yourself in the beginning of the day?"
How are you grounding yourself to acknowledging that you're even existing in this world? Mm-hmm. Like, you run to the bathroom, get ready. You don't look in the mirror and sort of say, "Good morning." Like, greeting yourself in the morning. Mm-hmm. Like, I exist. I'm here. I'm present. And when we acknowledge ourselves, we're more apt to be kind and supportive- Mm-hmm
and engage in our self-care and treat oth- others well because we're, like, being present with ourselves. Like, that's such- Mm-hmm ... a good beginning of the day. Like, if you have a spouse- Mm-hmm ... and you're, you run to the bathroom and they're standing there and you pass by them and you don't acknowledge them, are you gonna have a good day with them?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-mm.
Deborah Brown: Probably not. So it's the same thing when we, we walk past the mirror, but just kind of look and go, "Hey, there you are." Like, really an intentional moment where you're recognizing your existence. 'Cause how we start our day makes the difference.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. I thought... That's something that has been a big help for me over the last several years is just having that morning routine that's really devoted to self-care. For me it's just getting out and walking and getting out in nature and spending that time. Yes. You know, just either listening to a book I'm interested in or any of that sort of thing, and I think that's a great way to start the day, and, and I think you're right. It keeps you grounded.
Deborah Brown: Yeah. I love that you do that and you mention nature. That you actually- Mm-hmm ... feel a difference. When you're reading a book, it's like you're having a movie in your mind. You're not worrying about everything else. You're really You know, reading is such a, a really sacred space for me. I love reading because we're just- Mm-hmm
we're taking care of ourselves. We're educating ourselves. Even if it's a fun book, you're learning something about a person or a style of writing or- Mm-hmm ... some aspect of someone else's thought process. And then also nature. I love that you said that, getting out in nature. 'Cause that is just such a- Mm-hmm
a space where we can create so much peace. Um-
Gordon Brewer: Right ...
Deborah Brown: and so, and like you said, easing yourself and starting your morning right. 'Cause most people- Mm-hmm ... what they do is they will Set the alarm, jump out of bed, jump in the shower, get ready, drive off to work. And I thought, what about you and your day? Like, well, I don't want to have to get up earlier, but if you did, you don't have to get up earlier and start something, but easing yourself into the morning is a big, is a major thing as well.
Like, because otherwise you're just instantly in that rushed mentality. Mm-hmm. And something about going out in nature, just the peacefulness of nature and really engaging with it and looking at something makes a huge difference. Right. And I'm very blessed that I have my, my dog, and we go on walks every morning.
That's the first, that's how I start my day.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: I mean, it's the buddy system too. Like, of course I'm going to get out. He's staring at me and he's expecting it. Mm-hmm. So it's very useful. But it makes a difference in my day if I can't get out in the morning. Sometimes, you know- Mm-hmm ... we have to have some, some, every day is not going to be the same. We have to have some- Mm-hmm ... you know, some understanding about that. But I notice a difference in my day if I don't ease myself into my morning, if I don't get outside, if I'm not doing something fun first to start my day- Mm-hmm ... or something enjoyable. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: The other part of my morning routine is journaling as well. That's something that's just real. Mm-hmm. And so hopefully I'm doing a good job of practicing what I preach with my clients and that sort of thing. So what are some other areas, Deborah, that you see that we can tend to get stuck in just being able to be more mindful and, and keep ourselves grounded in, in the things that we need to?
Deborah Brown: Yeah, I think really what we focus on is what we become of how we live out our day, right? So if we're focused on something that we're afraid about and we really focus on that aspect of our day from the start and throughout our day, then we're gonna go out into the day and be anxious, right? Now, I'm not saying that, that, that we're not gonna have those things, but we can balance.
We can have more than one feeling and more than one thought going on at once. Mm-hmm. And so the more we're able to be... So when they say, gratitude it, it is important. What am I grateful for today or what have I done well today or what am I looking forward today? And if there's nothing, then why don't we create that?
Well, then I better make a pause and bring in some joy. Like, really- Mm-hmm ... there, this, this feeling of being childlike, having fun, pulling in joy in our lives in the small, tiny moments. Because life is, number one, life is either stressful or very mundane and boring. Mm-hmm. So we have an opportunity to find that fun in things, right?
You know- Mm-hmm ... if we wanna turn in- on a favorite song in the morning and just kind of dance around, and, like, that's just gonna make it fun. Or, or laugh at ourselves or read a book that's humorous, watch a show that's humorous, something that we're really enjoying, bringing that joy and then focusing on that and making that a main focus of our day.
At, at, at all times there's something joyful if we're looking for it. What we look for is how we feel throughout our day. Right. So making these very intentional, intentional acts of I'm really stressed out, what is something else I can think of? Because we can have all these emotions at once, but if we're focused on stress, we're gonna feel stress.
But if we focus on joy, the focus is taken away from here and we get a reprieve.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: And so it's not that we're taking away the fearful things or the anxiety, but we're giving ourselves a reprieve from it so we feel a lit- a little bit more balanced. Right. And that balance is really what brings, makes us grounded, pulling in the balance, engaging in life, engaging in nature, engaging in the fun.
So that's, that's super important to bring in the joy in the smallest of things. Mm-hmm. Because we're not gonna win the lottery every day. That's not the kind of joy. Like, if that's the joy that you think is gonna make you happy, we're gonna be really- Mm-hmm ... miserable because happiness is not a constant, so we have to look for those small moments.
Gordon Brewer: I know it's, before we were, we were started to record too, one of the things that we talked about is really tuning into your authentic self. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Deborah Brown: Yeah. We live in such a world where we're, we're almost told not to be ourselves. You know, you have to dress this way.
You ha- I mean, start with this. Like, oh, you can't wear that, it doesn't match. Says who? Mm-hmm. That's not a real rule. There's no rule that, like, that's not real. Have you ever been- Mm-hmm ... to, like, a, a modeling- Mm-hmm ... show or something? Mm-hmm. Like, the industry, none of that matches or looks like- Mm-hmm ... anything you would wear.
Yeah. But so it starts with being in, in, again, I keep using the word intentional, but how you dress for your day. How do you feel? How are you showing up for your day? The way that, how do you think I look? Everyone thinks I look good, but you're uncomfortable in what you're wearing, then you can't even present as your authentic self, right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: How you talk, how you answer questions, how you share, how you, who you bring into your world. I'm gonna be friends with these people that are more more around the, the things that I like to do. I'm not bringing these people 'cause they're popular into my life, and then I'm forced to do the things they wanna do.
Like, really pulling in the right community because we know who we are, and we're not afraid to speak that. Right. And so the more we're doing that, and the more we're, we're ensuring, like, what do you like to do for fun? Don't list the things that you wanna do for fun, list the things that you actually feel are fun.
There's an exercise that I like to do with clients, and I, I won't remember where this came from and where I found it, but it's the I am, the list of the I am statements. 'Cause a lot of times what happens when you introduce yourself to someone? You say all the things that you used to do, where you came from, and you tell them your whole history.
Great. I know nothing about who you are today. 'Cause it's almost like- Mm-hmm ... let me give you a list of all the things I've done well. Mm-hmm. But we don't know how to tell people who we are today.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Deborah Brown: Yeah. And so there's this I am, this list of I am statements, and it's writing 100 of them. Like, not in all one- Mm-hmm
sitting necessarily, but, like, the first 30 you're gonna say I am pretty easy. But then you really have to start really thinking about who you are. Mm-hmm. And I like that because I am someone who gets irritated. And not just I am good, I am bad. I am someone who really likes certain types of music. I am someone that loves to go to concerts.
I am someone that gets irritated easily when people are doing... these types of things where you're digging in, because we don't take a lot of time to figure out who am I?
We think- Yeah ... who do these people think I am, and how do I want to present? But who am I really? Um-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Deborah Brown: and that has a lot to do with who we surround ourselves with as well, because people are the mirror of who we are, and if we surround ourselves with people that don't align with us or we don't feel comfortable with, then we're never going to be authentic.
So number one, figuring out who we are, really engaging in that. That's why I think self-care is so important. Not- Mm-hmm ... because people use self-care like, "Oh, self-care." Self-care is giving us an opportunity so that when we're alone, we like ourselves, we understand ourselves, we accept ourselves, and it doesn't make us feel so lonely or stressed.
Right. Uh- We don't need so much from the outside world.
Gordon Brewer: I love that definition because it's, um, you know, I think we depend on- Too often, and this is something I talk with my clients about a lot, is, um, having too much of an external locus of control. In other words, we're just- Yeah ... responding or reacting to what's going on outside ourselves versus really responding to what we need internally and, and tapping into that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Deborah Brown: Yeah. It's-
Gordon Brewer: It's, uh-
Deborah Brown: It's interesting 'cause we live in such a ... I, I love that you work with that with clients because-
...
Deborah Brown: We live in a really fast-paced world that wants us to do the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing. And we ... The, the idea of being bored, "Oh, we can't be bored." Be-
Bored. Have that time- Mm-hmm ... where you have that downtime. Create that time. Like, I'm gonna do this from 1:00 to 2:00, and then I'm gonna be here at 2:30 to 4:00. But like no time in between to breathe and, like, adjust. We're rushing into these things, and we need that space. Mm-hmm. So it's imagine you're like, you're sitting in your office staring at the wall, and someone comes in and says, "Oh, you're not doing anything?"
Yeah, I'm thinking. I'm trying to- Mm-hmm ... figure out my next move. I'm trying to find those downtime spaces so that I can kind of- Mm-hmm ... know what to do next and really check in with myself. We just- Yeah ... this fast-paced world really throws us into a tailspin where we need peaceful spaces. I mean, it's really- Yeah
needed.
Gordon Brewer: I c- couldn't agree more. And I ... And you know, there was something else you alluded to earlier that was, um, just talking about the, you know, how we're so multifaceted with our, within ourselves. You mentioned, gave the example I think before we started recording of if somebody asks you, "Well, what's your favorite food?"
And it's kind of like that's, um, that's just a s- y- they're kind of like expecting a solo answer, but the truth is, is we all have different foods that we like, and there's no one favorite or one thing.
Deborah Brown: Yeah, we, we respond instead of really thinking. So the power of the pause is a huge thing. Mm-hmm. Just because we're asked a question, number one, doesn't mean we have to answer.
Number two, doesn't mean we have an answer or even know. We may have to think about it for a while. 'Cause we, we hear a do you da, da, da, da, and we go, "Oh, gotta answer." Mm-hmm. And then if you don't answer right away, people will be manipulative to ensure you answer. Mm-hmm. "Oh, you don't love me. You didn't say you love me, that means you don't love me."
Like, don't you think if I think about it and answer you, it has more meaning? Mm-hmm. And so pausing. What's your favorite color?
Gordon Brewer: Huh.
Deborah Brown: I don't really have a favorite color. I mean, it depends on my mood, depends on the season. Because I could say I like green, but I never wear the color green. I don't decorate with the color green.
I like nature, so I like green in nature, but it's not my favorite color. Mm-hmm. Or if I say it's my favorite color, someone's gonna buy me all this thing in yellow. I don't want a bunch of yellow. I... The color's appealing, but it's not my favorite color. There's no real answer to most of the questions, right?
Mm-hmm. That's why even in therapy we talk about open-ended questions. 'Cause yes or no gives you no information.
Um, it's like being in a court of law. The answer's yes or no. I will, that I can't answer you. Yeah. 'Cause I can't, there is no yes or no to that.
Gordon Brewer: There was, uh, another podcast I'd, you know, mentioned to people called The Hidden Brain podcast, and there was, uh, an episode called Who Are You Really?
And it was just talking about essentially how we're so multifaceted with different d- d- depending on the context. And so we, there's no... We, we tend to think about if we peel back all the layers of who we are, we get to this one single person who we are. And the, the person they were interviewing, his name was Eric Oliver was j- basically said, no, the truth of the matter is we're, we're lots of different personas depending on the context we're in.
You know, I'm a different person to my daughter than I am to my friends. I'm dif- different person to, work colleagues and all of that sort of thing. And so it just depends on those. And the truth of the matter is we're all those things, where it's not an either/or, it's both/and. And so being able to embrace that and just understand that- Mm
about ourselves, yeah
Deborah Brown: I love that because- Uh-huh ... you're so right. Like, it's not like- Mm-hmm ... we aren't, like when you said you're one way with your daughter and a different way with, you know, a friend, a different way with the boss. Because-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Deborah Brown: it's not, being authentic doesn't mean we show up exactly the same.
'Cause if we do, then we can't have any relationships with people. If I'm- Mm-hmm ... someone that's really, I talk a lot and I have a lot of energy and I walk into a funeral, or there's a piece I'm missing if I walk- Mm. You're walking into a funeral. Yeah. You, if you care about these people, you're gonna be respectful- Mm
because there's this- Mm-hmm ... this relationship piece to people. Like, you're someone that, like, loud sounds are really hard for you, so you, you don't- Mm-hmm ... you're, you tone down, not because you're being different, but because you care about people.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: And part of your authenticity is, "I care about you, so I can adjust," right?
And so I love that- Yeah ... piece of what you said, because it really matters that we show up for the relationship. Because I'm this and you're this, but our relationship- Mm ... is a combination of how we interact together and, and- Yes ... and how it works and how it ticks- ... and how we're... It's like being an active listener.
When someone says- Mm-hmm ... something and you show up a certain way, you weren't even listening to me.
Like-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah ...
Deborah Brown: don't hear well and you keep speaking quietly, you're, do you understand that you're not listening to me, right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Deborah Brown: and we're human, and we make those mistakes, and we do our automatic things, but, but it matters.
Like, how we- Right ... show up authentically is, again, depending on our moods. Yeah. And also regulating our moods, and, and I can feel this way, but it doesn't mean I need to be yelling just because I'm mad, right? Mm-hmm. But I can be authentically me, saying, I don't have to be like, "Hi, everything's okay," but I can kind of lower my, "Is everything all right?
I'm just a little bit frustrated today, but everything's all right," you know? But- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we're going to be different. Right. And if I'm authentic and you're authentic, we kind of have a sense of who each other are. Mm-hmm. And we can communicate better. 'Cause we can see when you're off, but we trust your consistency of being authentic- It, it's I worked with clients, um, one time who worked, lived in treatment and they worked with horses.
And I would- Yeah ... take them to the ranch to work with horses. So I wasn't at the therapist's work, but I watched them interact. And horses don't trust you if you come in really happy but they know you're not happy. They don't... You're not being congruent. You're not acting the way- Mm-hmm ... that I feel, and they sense that and they're very uncomfortable with that.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: I thought, what a beautiful way, horse, equine therapy, right? And-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Deborah Brown: we're the same way as people. Like if you tell me- Yeah ... "Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine," you're like, I don't, I don't trust you. Like, how can I- Mm-hmm ... develop trust with someone if I'm not being authentic?
Like, if you and I are talking at coffee and I'm sharing all of my problems with you, and you tell me you never have problems, I don't trust you, 'cause you're human, you have- Yeah
to have problems. Right, right. The second you're authentic and real, and we share our pain, we can now trust because now we're- Mm-hmm ... being real. That's how we develop- ... relationsh- real relationships with people, right? And so- Right ... yeah, we, we have to show up authentically in, in recognizing the other person in the relationship.
Gordon Brewer: One of the other things that I was, uh, reminded of with that podcast I mentioned was, uh, the fact that they said, uh, I'm gonna maybe misquote this a little bit, but I'll try to paraphrase this, is that to think about ourselves not as a noun, but as a verb in that it's fluid-
...
Gordon Brewer: Across- Yeah
across different situations. And yeah, and I think that was helpful for me to think about. And you're, you're exactly right, though. It depends who we are, how we show up has a lot to do with the relationships we're in, and how we- Yeah ... relate to those different people.
Deborah Brown: Yeah. Another reason, yeah, now that you say that- Mm-hmm
why it's so important for us to have certain type of community around us. Mm-hmm. Because it, it affects us. It affects how we communicate, and if we're, we have all these people that, that are always, like, mad at us, and that's who we're choosing to be around, we're gonna start presenting that way. Because it's really hard- Mm-hmm
not to see ourselves through other people. And those relationships, you're trying to create a relationship with people that don't really want you to be you.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: They are trying to- Yeah ... change you to be something else, so you're just showing up to engage with that person changes who we are and how we are.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: That's why people lose their authenticity, lose their voice. Yeah. Because we're so... A- and I just, just to add in, it's not easy for everybody depending on the culture you're in, the race you're in, the religion. You have all these different things, where you live, the world we live in, the political climate, whatever.
To show up, it's not safe to show up auth- authentically- Mm ... for a lot of people. Yeah. So it's not that it's an easy thing. It's... And how do you find your voice and show up authentically when you're not allowed? Because you could get, you could be, you know, there could be death at the highest point, or pain or something.
Mm-hmm. Right? So I don't wanna- Right ... say it like, "It's just, let's just be authentic." It's not that simple. I recognize there's a lot, and that's why therapy's very useful. Because you have to really look at each individual person of how can we start slow with that? And- Yeah ... in a therapeutic space is safe, and we can practice it there.
Um-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah ...
Deborah Brown: but also you had said, you know, we talked about, like, the favorite color. What's your favorite color? When I was young, if someone were to ask me what my political party was, what my religion was, and all of these things, I'm gonna just repeat what my parents are. Yeah. Because I don't know yet. So at a certain point, if I stayed that forever, then I never have my own voice.
You know how in politics and on the news they said, "Oh, this politician's lying. They used to say they believe that. Now they believe this." And I'm thinking, "Well, I hope they've grown and learned and-"
Gordon Brewer: Uh-huh ...
Deborah Brown: gathered some more information to be allowed to change their perspective and where, what their... And shouldn't we all be able to?
But we act- Mm-hmm ... like, "Oh, you changed your mind. How dare you?" And it's like- Yeah ... "No, I changed my mind because I read this book, or I talked to this person." The more engaged you are with different people- Mm-hmm ... and different music and movies and reading, you are gonna change your point of view because we are constantly learning and growing.
Mm-hmm. It would kind of make me worry if someone says, "No, my favorite color is green." You've been saying that since you were five. I hope you've changed your perspective at this point, right? Like-
Gordon Brewer: Right. ...
Deborah Brown: And so I think being allowed to change our minds is something that's super important. It's not allowed in this, in our world at all.
You can't change your mind. Yeah. You said you love me. You have to al- When we got married, you said you love me. Now I'm not for divorce or I'm not saying any of that, but you said you love me, you have to always love me. Well- Mm-hmm ... you, this is a, a ridiculous... Well, you tried to murder me. Yeah.
I don't love you anymore. Yeah. Like, I, that promise is broken. I've changed my mind and I'm allowed, right? That's the extreme example I love to give-
Gordon Brewer: Right ...
Deborah Brown: examples. But I hope we're changing and learning and growing along the way.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: And it's hard when people don't allow us to. So it, it's hard, it's hard to show up as our authentic self.
We haven't been taught to do that. I mean, just even as a woman, you have to- Mm-hmm ... look a certain way, act a certain way. And, and times- Mm-hmm ... no, that's, that's but is that you? And, and just as a man- Yeah ... you have to be this way, and you have to be tough, and you're the head of the household. And well, who says I have to do that?
Like- Yeah ... you know, I, I don't have to do any of that. I don't, I can show up who am I? How do I wanna show up? Right. And it's, there's a lot of rules in society that aren't real rules. Well, they said. There's no they. Uh-huh. So there's a lot of factors that really cause us to not show up as our authentic self.
Right. So then going back to mindfulness, those small moments of practice before the world enters the beginning of the day, grounding ourselves, bookending our day, grounding ourselves in beginning of the day. 'Cause once you get outta the house and you engage in your day, out of our control. I mean, even a morning can be out of our control.
You never know what's gonna come up.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: And but if you're bookending your day, at least trying to get those small pockets throughout too, but just at least if you're bookending your day, what can I control? You know, that's so helpful because if... And doing it consistently because- Yeah ... those are the areas, how do we learn to trust ourselves?
Consistency. Why do we choose to marry someone? Because they consistently show up as this person that I can say I can spend my life with because they consistently- Mm-hmm ... are someone I can count on. Right. But if we're not that, how do we trust ourselves to make decisions? I don't even know who you are.
I can't trust you. You tell- Right ... you're telling all these people you're this way, and you don't act like that when you're at home.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: And so we feel uncomfortable and have a lot of shame and guilt when we say we're one thing but aren't doing it, right? Right. Right. So as therapists, like you said, I'd like to- Yeah
to say that I'm doing these things pretty consistently, not perfectly. Not perfectly. Am I getting movement in this week? Am I getting, you know, am I doing some journaling? Am I doing it more often than not? Am I consistently making this a practice in my life? Not perfectly. Mm-hmm. Because then I can say, "Well, I did this well and I did that well.
Good job me." That, that boost that we get motivates us to do the next thing. So consistency and trusting ourselves starts with us being able to recognize now I can be authentic because I believe in me, and I don't have- Mm-hmm ... to live in shame and guilt because I am doing these things. So-
Gordon Brewer: Right ...
Deborah Brown: that's that safe space we have that-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah
Deborah Brown: where are we being mindful, and where are we practicing these things so that we can go engage in the world that's a really, really hard place, and it's getting
Gordon Brewer: harder. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many... It seems like we have so many, um- Well, maybe it's a little bit strong to say imposed rules because I think we impose on ourself by taking those things on.
I was reminded of uh, when, when you were talking this, I had this flashback to when I was a kid of one of the things that I... A- and this was a, a sel- uh, you know, I thought it was a rule that was created, but it really wasn't, it was just my imagination. But my... I remember my sister always liked hamburgers, so I assumed that I had to like hot dogs.
Oh. And so, well, because we couldn't- That's such a good example. We couldn't ha- we couldn't like the same thing. Yeah. And so I mean, it's just, you know, that's a silly example, but I think we do a lot of that with ourselves. No, it's such a good... I think
Deborah Brown: that's- Uh, uh-huh ...
Gordon Brewer: that's
Deborah Brown: the best example you could give.
Uh, uh, yeah. Because that is like, I, and I love you said imposed rule, 'cause you really wholeheartedl- believed when you say, "What's your favorite?" Okay, well then I have to pick a different favorite. Uh-huh. Like, we can't have the same- Uh-huh ... because there's only one answer to this. And when you really believe that, then what happens?
Yeah. When someone asks you later, "Do you like hamburgers over hot?" "Well, I like hot dogs." You don't even like hot dogs, but you've convinced- Yeah ... yourself. Yeah. Yes. And you eat them and you're like, "Why is my stomach upset? I don't really even like this." Uh-huh. "I still feel hungry, not because I'm hungry, because I ate something I don't even like."
Uh-huh. And, and those, that's a, seems like a silly example, but multiply that in all your decisions. Yeah,
Gordon Brewer: yeah.
Deborah Brown: You think there's this real rule, number one, as kids, because someone tells us, we believe it 'cause we don't know any better- Yeah, yeah ... at a certain
Gordon Brewer: point. Yeah.
Deborah Brown: And then society at large, even though it's not a real rule- Mm-hmm
everyone around us believes that's a real rule too, so we have to conform to it or we're ousted.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Deborah Brown: You know, you don't wear white after Labor Day or whatever that rule. Like, okay. Yeah. So then I do and then everyone makes fun of you and it's... So also, like, making fun of ourselves is actually a really good skill because then when- Yeah
someone else does it, we don't like, "Okay, like, I can laugh at me. You can laugh at me." Mm-hmm. "You can't hurt my feelings that way." Um- Mm-hmm ... but yeah, when we buy into these rules... Yeah, I mean, I think you need to get a hamburger today. Like, it's been long enough, George.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I'd eat more hamburgers-
Deborah Brown: But, but I love that example
Gordon Brewer: yeah, I definitely eat more hamburgers than hot dogs these days. So but well, well, Deborah, this, I've gotta b- we've gotta be mindful of our time and mindful of your time and, and this has been a great conversation and just such a delight. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and find out more about what you do.
Deborah Brown: Yeah, definitely. Um, the best way to find all of access to me is my website. It's debiettrentbrowntherapy,
um, @.com, and my, my... All my social media, my phone numbers, everything is there. It's Debi, D-E-B-I Trent Brown. Or also another way is all of my information is @ presença grounded. That's on Instagram. Mm-hmm. You know, my license number is there. I, I, I, I do a lot of information there. My phone number, my email, everything is there, and I'm very present- Mm-hmm
and so you can see the different things that I talk about there. I do reels and things,
Gordon Brewer: Sure ...
Deborah Brown: um, and I don't do therapy, but you can access me there and get my information there. I think that's the easiest- Right ... way rather than give phone numbers, 'cause with phone numbers, people aren't gonna reach out and call.
They need to kinda look and do something from their phone. Yes. So I think having a website- Mm-hmm ... and Instagram was an easier way. Um, and I, and I am open, and I do have, um, therapy. I only do things online currently.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Deborah Brown: Um, I do have some spots. I'm only licensed in California, and so- Mm-hmm ... I do take clients in California.
Gordon Brewer: Okay, awesome, and we'll have those links in the show notes and the show summary for people to get to easily. Well, Deborah, thanks for being on the podcast, and hopefully we'll have another conversation here soon.
Deborah Brown: Yeah, definitely, and thank you so much for asking me, Gordon, and you have this, you have this very, um, like, calming and wonderful presence even though it's on, on- online in your voice and your, um, calmness.
I really appreciate that, and I appreciate- Well- ... being part of this ...
Gordon Brewer: you're very kind to say that. Thank you. Take care, folks, and we'll be back again for another episode.