The Practice of Therapy

gordon brewer: Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to the podcast.
And I'm really thrilled to have back with me on my, on this podcast James Marland, who is a dear friend and has been on this podcast several times, and we've done a lot of collaborating over the years on different things. But James, welcome. Glad you're back.
james marland: Thanks, Gordon. It's great to be here. Last time I saw you I, uh, I had some brisket at your house I think.
gordon brewer: Yeah, yeah. That's right. Was it? You came... Yeah, I think it was. It was.
james marland: Yep.
gordon brewer: Yeah, I, I smoked a brisket, so it was- Yeah ... uh, yeah.
james marland: It was wonderful. Yeah.
gordon brewer: Yeah.
james marland: You're not only a good podcast host, you're a good host.
gordon brewer: Well, thanks. Thanks. That's... you're very kind. For the folks that aren't familiar with you, James, which I- would be hard to believe if they've been listening to this podcast for a while tell folks a little bit more about yourself and what you do and how you landed where you've landed.
james marland: I host Scaling Therapist podcast, and that is all about helping therapists create income outside of burning out on one-on-one hours. And so to do that, I help people create, uh, income sources, but I also introduce them to services that take the burden of running a therapy office off their plate, like HIPAA compliance SEO, web pages, things like that.
gordon brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And, and James does such a great job, and he's, uh, I've learned so much from him over the years as far as just, um, you know, doing kind of the back room kind of stuff and doing, creating things that, that you can use to diversify your income, and that's a, a really, really important thing to learn, you know?
We can, we can get, i- as therapists, we can get to the place where we fill up our schedules and we're s- working with lots of people, maybe have a group practice and all different kinds of things, but there's just so much that you can really do as far as scaling if you just continue to do nothing but butt in chair kind of uh, kind of work.
And so James has really become an expert in helping us figure out other ways to do that. And I know one of the things, uh, that... And this is a passion of yours, James, and I'll let you take it away here as far as talking about the different ways in which we can think about diversifying our income in private practice.
james marland: Yeah. There, there was a big problem with the way the system of earning income for therapists it just struck me as, as odd or counterproductive. One of those things is how we define success. Because I would, I would see success is, you know, a f- a maxed out schedule, a full schedule no open spots and then there's this, this rush to if somebody's not in a spot or you have openings, then you have to fill them, and that goes all the way back to when I worked at a day hospital and, uh, and a therapy office where you had to fill up every minute of every day, and if you didn't do that you know, it was frowned upon.
You weren't successful. And so you, you move that forward and you think, "If success is defined as maxing out, then that's also the same road as burnout."
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: The... If success is also the same path as burnout, that's a problem. And I've been working for the last several years to try to combat that.
Not stop therapy, not stop therapists, not stop people doing what they're doing, the- their best at, but maybe think about a different way, a different system that would help people use what they know, already know, use what you're already doing and just like, deliver it in a different way that doesn't burn you out and doesn't take the joy from your life or practice.
gordon brewer: And I know, uh, I know in my own experience, you know, I've been doing this a long time now. I... When I go back and realize, you know, I was... I g- I finished my graduate degree in 2001, and I've been doing therapy in some form or fashion all those years working for an agency and then starting my private practice in around 2005, 2006, and then starting a group practice.
And, um, it's meaningful work and I enjoy helping people, but if that's all I did, I would really, like you said, it would lead to a lot of burnout. So having other ways to create content, to do creative things, has really been part of why I've stayed in it as long as I have.
james marland: Yeah. And, and there are people, and you probably know them, that all they wanna do is that one-on-one therapy, the group therapy.
That that's their calling, and that's all they wanna do. And then there's other people that they're in a very intense therapeutic relationships, and you can only have so many of those emotional draining relationships. There's also, uh, we'll cover this in a little bit, there's also so many...
There's only so many hours in the day. There's only so many days in the month. There's only so many places you can be at once. And so you could be a successful therapist doing what you love, but still feel trapped, trapped by your schedule trapped- Mm-hmm ... by y- your location or, or trapped by the hours that it takes to be there.
It the, the work really matters, but the value that you give does not have to be trapped in your next hour, your next opening, or your physical presence. And that led me to- ... three traps for service delivery, uh, servi- people who deliver services. And I call it the clock trap or your hours, the calendar trap or your future, and then the couch trap, your location.
Where do you wanna start with that?
gordon brewer: Yeah, just what, uh, where- wherever you feel like that, um, that's what-
james marland: We'll, we'll start with the clock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's start with the clock, 'cause that could be the, the thing that, that most people think about when they think about service delivery. It's the hours- Mm-hmm
you put in. The, um- The, the clock trap happens when your income and your impact and the, the value that you get is only tied to the hours you spend in it. Because more clients can grow your income, but there's a ceiling, right? Mm-hmm. There's only so many hours you can work. And I can remember a time when I was, I was working in a therapy office.
I did, uh, intake interviews with people, then they went in on to see the, the psychologist and the psychiatrist. But anyways, I was, uh... We, we were down staff. I was coming in two or three hours early and staying two or three hours late, so I was working 10 to 12-hour days, and the... There were some staff that w- that were still putting pressure on me that I was not doing enough.
Have you ever felt that way, where you're coming in- Uh, sure ... day after day, hour after hour, doing as much as you can, and you s- it still doesn't feel like you're doing enough?
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
james marland: And I don't know if you've ever hit a breaking point, but that really was... I can remember back to that point, that was my breaking point, where- Right
I was doing all I can. It still wasn't enough. I was getting, the voices in my head plus the voices- Yeah ... on the outside complaining. Uh, and, and I just sat in a, an an empty office, turned off the lights, sat on the floor, and cried.
gordon brewer: Yeah. '
james marland: Cause I just... I was trapped, you know? I was trapped by the clock.
Yeah. I was... My value was only by how many hours I could put in, and it just wasn't healthy. Can you relate to that?
gordon brewer: Right. Oh, sure. Sure, yeah. I think we, I think we all g- can in different situations, just it's feel likes you're just, um, on this hamster wheel almost and it's just kinda like the getting, doing more and bigger and better and all of that sorta thing.
Which I think that's just a, uh, that's a whole mindset trap for us in general as far as around thinking about our worth as a person and, um, y- you know, just that whole uh, hustle culture kinda thing.
james marland: Mm-hmm.
gordon brewer: And I think it really, you know- ... and I've really changed my mind a lot about all of that over the years.
james marland: Yeah. Yeah. I also live in an area in southern Pennsylvania where you don't complain, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You just grin and bear it, rub some dirt on it, and move on.
And, uh, fully... Uh, the point here with, uh, the clock is the fully booked does not mean you're free. Fully booked does not mean you're successful.
Fully booked might be you're chasing after somebody else's dream. Like, you hear all these voices, "Be full. You maximize all your time." And I, I'm not saying don't fill up your schedule but if that's the only way that you are defining success, then that's also the same road to burnout. I'm just pointing that out.
There's a tension there- ... that you gotta be aware of. And the clock, um- You know, if you define value by the clock, that takes today's hours away. The, the second one, the second trap is the calendar, because that goes a step further. It, that starts, uh, taking over tomorrow. The, the calendar trap takes your future, and this happens when the commitments you make today they claim the days you haven't lived yet.
So-
gordon brewer: mm-hmm ...
james marland: uh, we've just entered, uh, or we're starting to leave vacation season. It's the end of summer, getting there to the end of summer, and I wonder how many people can identify or relate to how difficult it is to have a, a peaceful anx- non-anxiety vacation when you're a, a service, uh, you deliver services like a therapist, and you have to work- Mm-hmm
so hard to get things prepared for the vacation. You go on a week vacation, it takes you two days to, to relax. Then you have, you feel like, "Oh, I relaxed for one day." Then you start worrying about the vacation two days before you leave, and then you come- Mm-hmm ... back, 'cause you're worrying, like, "What am I coming back to?"
And you come- Mm-hmm ... back to a pile of work or some sort of crisis, or peop- you, worst case scenario, you check your phone or your calendar and you get, you start reading the crises that you have- Mm-hmm ... and that, that calendar trap where if you're not figuring out how to create more time and reduce that anxiety, you're giv- you're giving away- Mm-hmm
you're giving away your tomorrow's joy for, or today's joy for tomorrow that you haven't even spent. Right.
gordon brewer: I know for me, and this just happened, like, yesterday, is um, I was trying to schedule some time with a friend, and looking at my calendar- Mm ... and it's got, you know, okay, I can do this, or they can't do it then, and then all of that kind of thing.
And the back and forth around doing all of that is just exhausting, and it was, you know, just trying to figure out how to, to schedule some fun, you know? And, and I think, uh, I think a lot of times we don't protect our calendars enough, and I think- Yeah ... that's, you know, you mentioned burnout. One of, one of the things that I think, and I, I work with a lot of new therapists around this, is just the importance of protecting your, your schedule, protecting your, your calendar, and sticking to it, and not-
james marland: Yeah, nobody else will
giving
gordon brewer: in. Yeah.
james marland: Yeah. N- if you're not protecting your calendar, if you're not protecting your future, it's just gonna get gobbled up. Nobody- Right ... nobody else will care or consider, not that they're not caring people, it's just the system that you're working in will absorb-
gordon brewer: Mm ...
james marland: all the time you give it.
And if you're running a business, that's everything. That is- Yeah ... everything.
Um.
gordon brewer: Right.
james marland: I wanna... I have a story, I think it relates.
It's a compare and contrast. Um. Uh-huh. My parents took care of my, my grandmother, uh, who had a stroke for, like, eight years. Okay?
They, uh, they moved in with her.
Like, they moved into her house a- and took care of her, and they, they did not have any freedom. Very little freedom. Okay? But they were giving it up for something that was worthwhile.
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: They were giving it up for her lo- they loved her, she loved them, they felt called to do it. They willingly sacrificed...
They sacrificed so much. They sacrificed vacations, going away to visit grandkids. You know, we had to come to them. They just gave up they willingly gave up for something that was worthwhile. Now, contrast that with your agency or your business. That, that... Your business doesn't care about you.
Okay? Mm-hmm. Your business doesn't love you. Your business is not gonna ask if you're okay. At the end of your life, you're not gonna be like, "Oh, did I give enough time to the business?"
You're just not gonna do that.
You... So- The, the thing to consider with this trap is what am I giving away my future for?
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: Are you giving away your future? Are you giving away your today's joy, a- and then tomorrow you hope you get joy, or tomorrow everybody gets a spot but you. Like, are you... Today, and you're- Uh-huh ... just hoping that someday it's gonna work out. That's just... I don't have all the answers, but that's just something to consider, because there's such a, a deep trap for, for the service industry to just give it all away for something that doesn't, that isn't gonna give you- Right
joy long term.
gordon brewer: Yes. I agree. And it's just, um... Yeah, again, it's, it's important to... You know, it, it also goes into, um, being able to, you know, really make self-care a priority. I mean, that's- Mm-hmm ... uh, one of the things I constantly run into.
james marland: Yeah. Somebody, a wiser coach once asked me "How big is big enough?"
gordon brewer: Right,
james marland: right. And I'm like, I'm like I want huge," you know? Yeah. "I want as big as possible. I want as-"
gordon brewer: Right ...
james marland: you know, "as much money as I can make." But that yes is also saying no to something else and it- Right ... shouldn't be your health. That no, you shouldn't- Right ... be saying no to your family. You shouldn't be saying no to your, your joy or- Right
your creative side. Uh-huh. Like, you, you should not be getting the leftovers. And so just consider that, that trap could be I'm giving away all my todays for- Yeah ... all my joy today for something that doesn't really matter in the end.
gordon brewer: Right. Yeah.
james marland: It,
gordon brewer: it- It's, um- Yeah, it- Yeah.
Yeah. It's, uh... Y- yeah, and I think that's where we have to really look at our priorities and really kinda go... And people hear this from all, me all the time, what is our why behind what we do, and it's gotta line, all of these things have to line up- Mm-hmm
james marland: Yeah. Um, the, so just the question here is, is my, is my schedule getting my leftovers or am I getting the leftovers?
Yeah. And the final trap, uh, so we've done the clock and the calendar, so the final trap is the couch or the chair. I just thought- Yeah ... couch was a, a, uh, you know, the therapist couch. That's- Right ... that's what all the cartoons use anyways. Yeah, yeah. Right. It's much easier to- Right,
...
james marland: To see it. Yeah.
But that, that traps your location. The couch trap happens when, when you believe your value or your wisdom or your impact only happens when you're physically present in the room. And-
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm ...
james marland: and I don't know if you've felt this, where y- you feel like you have to be in a room with a person or on the screen with a person to get value.
You know? Mm-hmm. And that's asking your physical location to carry the whole mission or value. Like if you- Mm-hmm ... if you take, if you walk out of the office your value disappears, and I don't, I don't... That's just a narrow way for me to... That's a, that traps your wisdom in a location, and I just think with, with all the advancements we've had and all the ways for people to get information and all the ways to deliver content- whether virtually or in person, like y- conferences and stuff or public speaking or developing worksheets and workbooks, th- there's just... W- we have to think broader than m- my wisdom is trapped in a, in one location. I can only give value where the couch is.
Right. 'Cause y- you are- Mm-hmm ... the main value.
It's not your couch. It's not your location. It's the person. Mm-hmm. It's the therapist. It's the person helping the other person. That is where the value comes from. But we-
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm ...
james marland: we've kind of limited it to like, "I gotta be in front of them in Zoom," or, "I gotta sit on a couch."
gordon brewer: Right. It's got, it's the whole going from one-to-one deli- delivery of service to the one-to-many is a way I like to think about it.
james marland: Or even, um, yeah, definitely. Let me tell you a stor- oh, here we go.
gordon brewer: Okay.
james marland: Let me tell you a story about how this hit home for me, and it's another personal story. I have a, a sister who has had some difficulties growing up. And actually, um, my parents adopted her in their 60s, and she was, like, three.
And so the- just s- imagine the issues that you could have. And so one of my, one of my big struggles with this, working in the therapy world and helping therapists, is I knew there was a perfect therapist out there for her. Like, I knew there, there was somebody who knew, who could identify with her exact issues, my parents' exact situation, and give them expert support.
But they weren't, they weren't they weren't near them. The- they couldn't- Mm-hmm ... find them, and the, the resources they reached out to matched them with a, a lovely, a therapist who worked with them for s- two years, I think it was two years, and at the end of two years she's like, "I've done all I can.
I-" Mm-hmm "... I am stuck." And, uh, they referred her to other services. That was, that part of the, the couch trap mentality. Like- Mm-hmm ... and we're out, you, you're, you can only get help by people who are local to you, or you can only deliver services th- in your state. It just seemed maddening to me. It was very frustrating that their wisdom, the wi- there, there's somebody out there that we couldn't find, and people suffered.
And this is, this cannot be a unique story.
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm,
james marland: mm-hmm. Th- this is something that is, that happens out in it every day in every town all across the country, where you can't find the right therapist, even though they're out there, because you're not in the right location.
gordon brewer: Oh, right. Yeah. And so we, yeah, and I, I think what we learned during COVID, which it's amazing how much we mark with COVID now, um- True
yeah, um, that, you know, switching to telehealth and making ourselves available in other ways you know, I t- I remember during COVID I started seeing someone who lived in Memphis, which, uh, if we're Ten- the people that aren't familiar with Tennessee, I'm, I'm located, uh, up in the northeast corner of Tennessee, and Memphis is eight hours th- west of here on the complete opposite corner of Tennessee.
And so it's pretty amazing in that that person found me, and I was a good fit for them, and it worked out well. And so, yeah.
james marland: Yeah, just open your yes, we can, just open your mind. And I think COVID did start opening the mind to that.
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: But and then there's the multi-state contracts or compacts, I forget what they're called-
gordon brewer: Yeah, you're
james marland: right, right
that is- Uh-huh ... st- starting to open that. But it's just open yourself up to the idea that you do not have to be locked down to a- Mm-hmm ... location. Your value goes with you. You bring it- Mm-hmm ... with you. It's not the couch. It's not the building. Um, this also, I guess, future-proofs you a little bit because what if you move, right?
Mm-hmm. Or what if, what if the office you work at closes and now you don't have that couch anymore? What are you gonna do?
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: There, just this- Open yourself up to the n- the idea that you don't have to be locked down by your location. Right. Um, and you can make an impact with people, just like you did, from somebody eight hours away or even further.
Mm-hmm. And you can do this you can do this in a lot of different ways, as we've, we've talked about briefly. You could do workshops for people. You could do trainings at churches, trainings at schools, trainings at businesses. I mean- Mm-hmm ... how many businesses need a little more emotional intelligence injected- Mm-hmm
into their teams? And, like, conflict- Right ... resolution and teamwork. All the things that I'm sure you have dealt with on a weekly and sometimes daily basis, package it up and mo- and take it, take it with you. A guide, a training, a video, a course.
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: PDF. Just your impact can travel outside your office.
gordon brewer: Yeah, absolutely. So I know with all of these things, I know there's w- some ways in which you have really thought this through, and thinking about other ways to get around these, these traps, as you call them. What, where do you see is the starting place for a person to begin to think about it differently and, and really just being able to kind of free themselves up from these traps?
james marland: Yeah. I've seen this, uh, happen in different ways as I followed some therapists across the way. It starts with an idea you're passionate about that solves a problem for somebody else, and just take notes on what you feel passionate and energizes you in your therapy day and the, the clients that energize you, and that's, that's a good starting point.
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: And then you do not have to invest tons of money or time to test this idea. One of the things I saw another therapist do is they just wrote a post on Facebook about it and s- saw... They took a stand, they had an opinion, and then if people responded, that was a sign to take the next step. So you can take some small steps along the way before you invest any large amounts of money, buy any software or do anything.
So a, a simple step would be write a Facebook post, write a blog post, write a Reddit post, see what happens. Then write a blog, like something longer, longer than a paragraph. Then you could do a workshop. Now, uh, I ha- what a workshop is is just, it's a simple one to three-hour block of time where you solve one problem for one specific audience.
And, uh, I'm running a, I'm running a workshop, um, with a friend of mine, Natasha Guest. Guess. G-U- G-U-E-S-S, Guess. And she's, she's doing something on HIPAA compliance toolbox. It's one for therapists. One problem: I- I'm worried that I might not be in client compliance. One solution: here's the toolbox, here's the toolkit.
One one outcome: I'm gonna be confident that my HI- I've addressed my HIPAA compliance issues. So the thing about workshops, yeah, it's, it's really cool. And w- when I ran the virtual assistant company, one of the things I worried about a lot was, hey, we're a provider down the line, a downstream provider of therapists.
We gotta have... You know, if people wanna use our services, we gotta have this nailed down and be professional and have all d- all our ducks in a row. So I had to, I bought a program and did the, uh, did the workshops there. But I was, until I did that, I was like, "Okay, I think we got it. I have a policy-" Mm
"in a drawer somewhere, but I'm not 100% sure," so I had to buy something like this. So that, that is something that is a workshop. It's just a simple test to see how things go. Mm-hmm. And the benefits of workshops is it's, it's no long-term commitment or investment from you or your students. It's one day.
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm.
james marland: They get the benefit, you're done. It's a trial. It's like, it's low risk. A lot of times, when I first started doing this, there was a lot of like, "Do a lot of market research." And I'm not saying don't do market research, but the workshop then is the market research. Like you- Mm-hmm ... you write your blog post, you write it, you wrote your Facebook post, you talk to a few people, then you launch a workshop that's like an one to three hours, and if people, if that gets traction, then you know that it's, it's solving a problem and you can build on from that.
Don't necessarily build everything from the b- from the, the get-go. Mm-hmm. It's just a micro pilot to test your proof of concept. Um- Right ... it there's some other benefits to it. You get you're actually solving problems for people. So normally the way I run workshops is- you're doing the work as you go through it, so when they're done, they have, they have an output that solves their problem.
Mm-hmm. It d- gives the promise of the workshop. It's high value, low cost, and, uh, you can deliver it in person or virtually, so it's, it's not- Yeah ... it's not anything that you have to buy a lot of infrastructure with. Um- Yeah ... and probably the, the people who want to take your workshop, at least the first time, you already know.
They're, they probably are- Mm-hmm ... in your n- they're already in your contacts. They're probably already somebody who follows you or knows you. And it's just a, a real easy way to, to test an idea- Mm-hmm ... to see if that's something that can, that can grow, and just take the first steps. Right.
gordon brewer: Well, I know one of the things too that your your expertise is in James, is just being able for people to think about creating courses particularly therapists because-
james marland: Mm-hmm ...
gordon brewer: one of the, one of the things that we all run into is that we get, we find our ideal client. We have the people that is our niche or niche or however you wanna say that, and um, what we find is that we're repeating some of the same ideas, the same concepts in helping people solve the problems that they're having, and that gets on repeat.
And that, in and of itself, could be a course that you could create that's marketable.
james marland: Yeah, 100, 100%. And you can, you can do it as pre, like pre-therapy, like this is what you need to know before having services with me. It could also be post-therapy, like, okay- Mm-hmm ... you've had services with me.
This is gonna bolster you, and we'll ta- you know, as we slowly disconnect, we'll keep talking about this, and this'll be there. Mm-hmm. Or it can be during, like, hey, these are the things we're gonna talk about. Take here's, you know, all my information. That elevates your one-on-one time. Right? If you can have it in a medium where they can consume it without you present- And then you, then you coach them or, or do therapy with them afterwards or during, then that elevates the time you spent with them.
You don't have to cover the found- the basics. They can get that in a different way. Um-
gordon brewer: Right ...
james marland: and I'm not telling people to stop doing therapy. I'm not telling people- Mm-hmm ... that to do something different. I'm telling them to, to choose what they love and see if there's a different way to deliver it to impact- Mm-hmm
people and also protect your, protect yourself from, uh, burnout, you know?
gordon brewer: Right.
james marland: Going down that, that suc- success trail of- Mm-hmm ... that leads, there's also burnout.
gordon brewer: Right. Well, I know, uh, we've gotta be k- be aware of our time here, James, but I know you've got some things coming up that you wanted people to know about where they can learn some new stuff from you.
james marland: Yeah. Uh, the, the main thing is the, uh, launch a workshop in 30 days. So I have a- Mm-hmm ... I have a reoccurring workshop where I'll lead a live implementation of some of the, like, how do you run a workshop? Like, what is the date? What is the topic? How do you market it? What do you price it? How do you- Mm-hmm
make, how do you send out e- mails for your prospects? Things like that. Just the nuts and bolts of it. It'll take, it takes a couple hours, but when you're done, you'll have, you'll leave with all that information and a way to-
gordon brewer: Mm-hmm ...
james marland: scaffold or to build your outline and present it. So that's- Mm-hmm
really exciting for me, 'cause I love helping people discover new ways and build things. Just I love building, of creating. Uh, and then if, um, if there's people who already have that developed and they want to, they want somebody to take care of the backend, uh, I can, I have been doing that as well. So I, I have a couple people I'm working with already that we're I'm just doing, I'm creating the landing page, the registration, the signups- Mm-hmm
the students, all the, all that tech headache that actually I love. Mm-hmm. Like, I can lose myself building our assets and emails and webpages. Anyways.
gordon brewer: Yeah.
james marland: Uh, if you already have a topic or idea and you wanna partner with me just james@coursecreationstudio.com, and- Mm-hmm ... we will take a look at that, 'cause I, I would love to...
That goes back to, uh, the location trap. I would love to get this information, your information, what you care about, into the hands of more people so that you can impact their lives, and you also get the joy of doing your best work. So those are the two things. Coursecreationstudio.com. And also, and then you can, um, d- or just email me, james@coursecreationstudio.com.
gordon brewer: Right. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary for people to connect with this, um, easily. But yeah, James is your go-to guy. If you've got an idea of something that you want to either do a workshop on or teach a course on or, um, somehow or another go from the one-to-one way of delivering knowledge and services to the one-to-many, James can really help you with that.
He's helped me immensely with a lot of different things over the years, so yeah, check it out. Yeah. Well, James, good to have you again, and be sure and check out his podcast. And yeah.
james marland: Yeah, Scaling Therapist. It's just Scaling Therapist on iTunes. It's also on the, the webpage. Uh, I bring tools and ideas like this to hopefully inspire people to scale beyond one-on-one hours or to scale beyond the traps so that they can enjoy their life today.
gordon brewer: So check it out. So thanks again, James.
james marland: Thanks, Gordon