The Practice of Therapy

Julie Herres:
Hi everyone today. We're talking about why and how great clinicians fail at private practice. My guest is my friend Gordon brewer, Gordon. It's great to have you on the podcast. Welcome.
Gordon Brewer:
Well, thanks Julie. I've been so excited about this and just really excited about the fact that you do in a podcast. That's just cool. You're perfect for it.
Julie Herres:
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and the practice of therapy?
Gordon Brewer:
Sure. Thanks. Well I'm Gordon brewer and I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I've been in private practice. Started out part-time around 2005, 2006. And have since that time grown into a group practice, I have a group practice, Kingsport counseling associates, and we're located in Northeast Tennessee, which is up in the Northeast in, in what is called the Tri-Cities area in Northeast Tennessee, where Virginia and Tennessee kind of come together and touch up there in the quarter. And I started once I went into private practice I went back in, back in, back in the day and I'm kind of dating myself, but there was there weren't a whole lot of private practice resources available. I mean, there was a few things, there were a few books, but really very little online or available to people about how to start a practice.
Gordon Brewer:
So I taught myself a lot of stuff along the way. And so in 2016, I really got started listening to some podcasts and my friend my friend Joe Sanok was one of his podcasts. I listen to very regularly. He's a great, great podcast. I can recommend it practice of the practice. Ubut anyway, I started, I was just intrigued by that and thought, you know, I wouldn't mind doing something like that myself. So I started the practice of therapy,uin 2016, really just as a blog and really what the purpose of it is just providing resources and,uthings for people to start private practice. And so,uuput together a it's a free private practice startup guide that are wrote and,uput that out there and that's available on the website. But,uthen in 2017 I decided to do a podcast. And so I started podcasting and,uit has just, just taken off. And so that's how Julie and I met in terms of,uyeah. See, I, I guess you, you heard the podcast or something and, and connected with me and it just kinda went from there.
Julie Herres:
Yeah. I've listened to your podcast for a long time. Yeah, yeah. And then you also Gordon, through the, of therapy, you also
Gordon Brewer:
Have a few online courses also, right? Correct. Yeah. So one, one of the things that I was really intrigued by is, mnd I think this is really when I was starting to get questions from people it's just really, you know, they want to know, okay, how do you, how do you do this? How do you set things up? And so I really have been, mntrigued by just kind of the systems and processes that you need to put in place to run a practice. So you've got, mou know, how do you do intakes with clients? You know, what paperwork do you need to, meed to have for them? Umou know, what, what sort of, hlatforms do you need in terms of online platforms and, and that sort of thing. And then there's the whole financial side of practice. And so the courses and resources I've put together at the practice of therapy are geared towards helping people really in those starting phases and, and helping, and even for some people, hhat maybe have been in it a while realizing that, okay, I need to tweak my, my systems and processes.
Gordon Brewer:
So I've got G suite for therapist, which is just a course about using the tools of Google G suite, where for those of you that have a Google of count with G suite, you have just a whole suite of of tools available, Google docs, Google sheets Google forms, all those kinds of things, Google drive, but you can set those up so that they can be HIPAA secure and HIPAA compliant. And so the course goes into that, about setting those things up and how to use the tools in the context of a private practice. And then the other course, and Julie partnered with me on, on kind of the more advanced version of that course money matters in private practice, where I really dive deep into the whole financial side of private practice. This is stuff that none of us learned at graduate school, or none of us learned,uparticularly people that don't have any sort of business background.
Gordon Brewer:
It's just stuff we don't know. And so I really put that together to kind of give people a way of, of learning that in a way that's not intimidating and is not not hard to learn. And I always say, if I can learn it, you can learn it. And so that's kind of the thing. And then the other things I've got, I've got different, some other digital products paperwork packet for somebody that doesn't want to put all the work into putting a paperwork packet together. I've got a basic one there available. UI put together a system,uand some templates that you could use with G suite there's one called session note helper, which is just a system of using a Google form along with an add on called form publisher that will produce a narrative format, a progress note just by checking off some boxes on a Google form and through the magic of that, add on it, it produces a narrative that you can then cut and paste and put into either, you know, clinical record or, hlectronic health record system, that kind of thing. So, yeah. Yeah. So thanks for sharing. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah.
Julie Herres:
So today you and I were talking about why great clinicians fail. And I want to start off by saying that I really, really, really want private practice owners to succeed right. Financially the entire goal of my accounting firm is to make sure that practice owners are profitable and they can stay in business. But the reality is that, you know, as good as a practice owner might be on the clinical side, the financial piece of the practices often what can take down a business and force the business to shut down. So let's talk through some of the biggest mistakes that we've seen you for you and your coaching and, and in my practice. So what do you think Gordon?
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, so one of the things I think that people,uyou know, they, they hear from us all the time, Julie just know your numbers and, and what we mean by that is just being able to understand, you know, how the money is coming in. In other words, how people are paying you and then,uyou know, what you do with that money after that, to pay yourself, to pay for your, the expenses of your business and all of those kinds of things. But one mistake is that people don't have a clear picture of what those actual numbers are. They tend to kind of, hh, well, I've got, I've got this much in my bank account and, you know, it looks pretty good, so maybe I can spend something on this or, mou know, those kinds of things. And so there's no real kind of scientific or scientific or data-driven kind of way of doing that.
Gordon Brewer:
And so I think you have to kind of get a, get away from doing that. I think the other thing too, and we were talking a little bit about this ahead of time was just our mindset around money. I think a lot of folks myself included grew up with maybe some money shame or some money feeling like money was bad or that we to make money was bad. I think you know, as therapists, we have a very caring heart and somehow, or another, we feel like if we charge people for what we do, then then there's something wrong with that. And that's a mindset thing. And I think,
Julie Herres:
Do you think that is Gordon? Why do therapists tend to feel so guilty about making money?
Gordon Brewer:
Well, I think, yeah, I think a big part of, yeah, it just kind of goes to I think mindset and where we're focused in our training is focused on helping people. And then I think what for somehow or another we make, make maybe a false connection is is that if somebody is somebody is paying me for something I'm somehow or another putting a burden on that person or you know, making their stress level higher or something. But that, I think that's, that's just a myth really. I think most people that come to see us really expect to pay us and want to pay us. And yeah. And so I think that's one of the, I think that's one of the things, one mistake that a lot of people make is that, and what that leads to is that they don't charge enough for their services. Um,d they, they, they low ball themselves on what they're charging charging clients. Um,
Julie Herres:
I want to circle back for just a second about knowing the numbers, right? Because we talk about that from a theoretical standpoint that you should know your numbers and that doesn't mean you need to study the P and L and be able to rattle off all those numbers by heart, but understanding kind of the basic mechanics of how those things work can help you also diagnose when something isn't working. Right. And I just want to share an example with you that I saw just earlier today in my firm, we were looking at the numbers for a client and everything just looked really low. We were looking at the, the number of sessions in the EHR. We were looking at the revenue and saying something just doesn't add up because this would mean the average fee per session is $50. And that doesn't make sense.
Julie Herres:
I don't know of any insurance that, that or, and she takes private insurance that I don't don't know of any insurance that, that has a reimbursement that low. So just knowing kind of how those numbers flow, you can say, okay, something is wrong. Something is missing there's cash payments missing somewhere, or there's something incorrect in the EHR. And there's more accounts receivable than we thought there was, right? Like we can kind of dig in and figure out what is going on instead of just assuming that it's all correct. Cause sometimes it's not, and we need to find, find where, where the money went. The other thing we can do though, is also look at the top line versus the bottom line and you know, how much money comes in, like how much people pay you that is the gross income. And that's a great number. And people like to throw that number around, right. And say, Oh, I'm a seven or seven figure practice, or what are the six figure, practice, whatever that might be. And that's great, but if there's no money in profit who cares, right. It doesn't really matter how much is coming in, if there's no profit left at the end of the day. Right.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Right. Yeah. And so, yeah, you're exactly right. I think it's so important to understand how all that works and to be able to also, you know, just keep an eye on all of that as you along. I think one, one mistake too, that people do is they tend to procrastinate about keeping books and, hou know, and I kind of, hou know, I enjoy doing mine. I'm kind of, I kind of geek out on that kind of thing of, hf, you know, hutting, putting entries into QuickBooks and that sort of thing. And I'll, I'll keep doing that until it's not fun anymore, but, hmf it's not something that you enjoy doing by all means outsource it, but it's not something you should put off completely because you can be, you can find yourself in a deep, deep hole and not even know it. Um, then, and then, um end up at the end of the year with a huge tax bill, uh t you didn't didn't anticipate and it's, um e seen it happen. And, um s, you know, um it's so important to keep a pulse on those numbers and understand how that's, how that's working
Julie Herres:
And that huge tax bill is one of the things that can really take down a practice owner,ubecause most entities are passed through entities, right. Most legal entities. So that means the, the profit flows through to the personal tax return, whether or not you take it out of the business. Right. So it flows through either through, [inaudible] a schedule C to the personal tax return. So you personally owe that tax liability. And if you weren't ready for it, that can mean a payment plan of several years. Right. It can, it can really,udrain the profit for many years to come when that wasn't planned ahead.
Gordon Brewer:
Right. Yeah. And I think the other, the other thing that I think private practice owners can, one of the reasons they fail is they don't have enough in reserve for themselves. Umaybe for, you know, you mentioned the tax bill. Uunfortunately I had a situation this past year I'll share this,uwhere I had a pretty big tax bill. I had like a $10,000 tax bill, which I was just, it was, but what it was related to is the fact that,uuI had been using the ACA insurance before I switched over to having a group plan for my group practice. And so I was, I was paying through that, well, guess what, I made too much money to qualify for the discounts. And so, so uncle Sam wanted that money back right now. Well, fortunately, fortunately I had the reserve, I had had set aside the reserve for that and it wasn't, it was painful to let it go, but,ustale, it wasn't something that I was just caught. Okay. I don't have the money to pay for this. So, you know, I always recommend, and, and I'm not, yeah, you probably are close to this of having at the very least two months of income and expenses covered and stocked away that you do not touch unless you just absolutely get into a big emergency situation. Umo, meah, three to six months, yes.
Julie Herres:
I would prefer to three to six months, but two months is still better than zero months. So I'd rather have something than nothing. And I personally recommend doing that both on the personal side with your three, three to six months of your personal expenses, but also in the business. I like having a, and if,uif a business uses profit first, that might be in a, you know, an additional that's far away profit account,uthat loves that a different bank. Right. So it could, it could be in a couple of different, different spots, but I'll tell you what, when COVID hit, we were having very different conversations with our clients who had reserves and the ones that only had days worth of cash.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes. Right, right. Yeah. And so that's I would say if somebody's starting a private practice don't quit your day job too quickly. I mean, if you've got a full-time job what I would recommend doing is really focusing on building your reserve as quickly as possible on the front end, before you jump in full-time with it. I know when I made the decision to go really truly full-time with my private practice, I really spent a year preparing for that just financially in terms of getting that reserve. And you're right, Julie, I say at least two months, which is better than nothing, but three to six months is even even better. And so,uyeah. Uso I made it a goal to save at least six months of what I knew I needed to live on or what expenses I needed to cover for my practice before I jumped in to doing it full time. Of course, you know, th th the advantage is, is usually at that time you got the cashflow and the momentum to where you can see that it's doable. And so, you know,
Julie Herres:
Slowly merging onto the highway versus jumping right into the middle of the highway. Right. Right. Yeah. And so, as you were starting your practice on the side, did it help also to be able to you have that full-time job to help cover some of those startup expenses?
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, so, well, the way I, the, you know, the, again, the way I thought about it at that time was I did not want to go into debt at all with my practice. And you know, that, that is one way that somebody could do it as a, get a, you know, a small business loan or something like that. But,uyou know, at the time I just said, okay, what I make from the practice goes to the practice. And so I didn't necessarily use money from my full-time job at the time for my practice. I mean, I did, you know, for little things, you know, like had to get a website, you know, all of those kinds of things. So I spent some of my money on that, but,uother than that, I really purposely just made the practice pay for itself from the beginning.
Julie Herres:
I love it because that's a question that I hear often is how much should, how much do I need to have saved for, to start my private practice? And the reality is it's not particularly expensive to start a private practice. You just want to really have some money saved for yourself personally. Right. And I think that's where there's one advantage,ufor mental health. Whereas if you're opening a dentist office, there's usually a few hundred thousand dollars worth of equipment that needs to be purchased, but for, for mental health, that can really be fairly inexpensive to start with either. Right. I mean, right now in telehealth,ujust a few basic things and you're, you're pretty much ready to go.
Gordon Brewer:
Right. Right. Yeah. And I think you know, that's I guess I'm reminded to Julie and just thinking about mistakes that people can make is that they in thinking about, you know, your right to our starting a private practice is pretty inexpensive. And I think in the beginning stages, it makes sense to do some bootstrapping in terms of doing some stuff yourself and, and really kind of saving some money. But eventually you get to a point where it's not to do at all is not a good return on your investment. And so it, that old cliche, sometimes you have to spend money in order to make money. I think a lot of times people will hold off on spending money because they're trying to save so much money, but in the long run, what they're doing is they're hurting themselves because it's costing them costing a more out, you know, an example of that would be I think one place that people tend to hold off too much is to, is to hire a virtual assistant or somebody to help answer phone calls and stuff.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. And so the way I think about it is if I can hire somebody you know, the, the way that we make our money, as we have to sit in front of clients and do therapy, and if I'm not doing that, I'm not making money. If I'm spending time returning phone calls or doing filing insurance claims or doing paperwork or all of those kinds of things, that time is not really actually bringing me any income. Now it's part of the operations and it's necessary stuff, but it doesn't bring in anything for me. So my time is better spent in the room with clients. And so if I can free up that time and pay somebody 30, even if it's $30 an hour to free up an hour of my time so that I can make $150 in a session, it's pretty easy math, if you think about it. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah,
Julie Herres:
Your clinician who says, but no one can, no one can answer the phones and convert the callers. Like I can.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes. and to some degree I would say you're correct, but that's also that's also a place where we have to learn to let go of some things. Nobody is going to do it like I do it, but I promise you if you hire somebody to do it, they will do it and they will do it. Well, it won't be exactly like you would do it. And I think that's where we have to kind of be willing to kind of give up a little bit of control. I can say when I, when I made that switch and finally hired somebody to answer the phones I actually got, got more clients from that than I was when I was doing it myself, because when somebody would call, if they were available, they'd answer the phone and they could get back to them quicker than I could, because if I'm in session all day and I'm waiting until the end of the day, call people back, well, guess what?
Gordon Brewer:
They've probably called another therapist at that point, because yes. Right. Right. And so, yeah. So in that sense, you got to really think about your ROI, your return on investment w with things like that. And I think don't be afraid to spend some money, particularly if, you know, it's going to be, it is going to create a good return on your investment. It's like a, it's like psycho, you know, it's like putting an ad or putting up a site, doing a psychology today profile. You know, if I get, you know, it's 30 bucks a month for psychology today profile, and if you got one client from that it paid for itself. And so just, you know, one client in the month, it would pay for itself. Umnd so, meah,
Julie Herres:
A lot of times I see also clinicians, very careful about spending money when it comes to software, right. They don't want to add one more fee or one, one more thing, but then they're on the backend. They're spending hours of time trying to cobble together this weird system. That's not scalable. That always feels like an odd one to me. Right. I'd rather spend the money on the system, on the software and then save a lot of time, but also build that system that can grow with me. Cause just like the phone, Hey, you can answer the phone when it's just you, when it's just a solo practice or maybe with one clinician, but what about when you have five or 10? There's hopefully you're getting way too many calls for one single person at that time.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right, right. Yeah. That, and you're exactly right. And again, that's, that's some stuff I learned the hard way about outsourcing and you know, I'm I'm telling my age, I'm one of those boomers. And so I think that, you know, you gotta hang on to, you know, but my parents grew up in the depression era, so I kind of inherited kind of some of that yeah. Kind of that mentality. Yeah. That's right. And, and I've probably spent hours and hours trying to figure out stuff like websites and all of that. What I would have been just much better served,uto, to outsource it. Uyeah.
Julie Herres:
Great. Or have someone young on your team that can do it. That that is much faster than like I have someone on my team who's amazing with Instagram. I barely know how to log into Instagram.
Gordon Brewer:
We all
Julie Herres:
Have to do our, our strengths. Right. So what are some, what are some of the things that we, that you see outsourced first?
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. So I think number one is somebody to answer, answer the phones and,uyeah, just some, yeah. Doing followup with, with clients also,uyou know, sending out, you know, we, in my practice, we prefer for people to fill out their,upaperwork before they come in. UI have that done, so we make sure they get the paperwork or at least, you know, links to our online platform that where they can do all of that. Uthose,uthat's a big one there, I would say that needs to be outsourced. Umou know, depending on, mou know, certainly like your website, mou know, certainly, hou know, I, I was just fascinated by building websites are built by home, but, mf I were to do it over again, I would, I would outsource that and just pay, you know, pay the fee or whatever, because I'm going to get much better results for somebody that knows SEO and all those sorts of sorts of things. Um
Julie Herres:
Like social media marketing is probably right for someone else to do.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes, it is. You know, others are, you know, of course bookkeeping and accounting and those kinds of things. You know, I think, yeah, again looking at what you, you know, I would say, Hey, here's, here's kind of a general rule. I think and I learned this kind of from a guy by the name of Michael Hyatt and he's got a got a course called free to focus that I took one time and it was just about productivity. And I think if you could make a list of those things that you dread doing, and then she just do not like to do,uthat's going to deplete your energy and you're just not going to enjoy doing it. Uthe more you can outsource those things or delegate those things, the more productive you're going to be, because it's just, it's it's drudgery or that are automated in some way. Uis,uis the thing to do with those, those kinds of things. So,u
Julie Herres:
I love Michael Hyatt and that makes, it makes a lot of sense to delegate or outsource something that is not your area of genius. So do what you're very best at and let someone else handle everything else. Right. Right. And since you love doing bookkeeping, you keep it. If you love doing something, you keep it on your plate, right. Just something that doesn't bring you any joy can go. All right. One of the big mistakes, I probably see this one most often, and this can be a very crushing mistake is when you hire a clinician paying them too much, what happens that first hire is so often paid way too much. And I think that goes back to the money mindset when she say
Gordon Brewer:
It does it does. And I know Julie, you and I have talked about this before. That was a mistake I made when I first started getting hiring clinicians. I, I got them as contractors and you know, I felt like, okay, I want to be really generous with all of this, but what I, again, what I really ran the numbers, how was actually paying them out of what I produced. So in other words, they're, they're the percentage I was paying them was just way too high and it was overhead. Right. So it didn't cover here.
Julie Herres:
I paid them and paid overhead, there was negative dollars left.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right, right. And so, yeah, exactly. Right. And I think, yeah, I think it is possible to, to, to pay clinicians a fair wage that is competitive and all of that without having to, to overdo it. And you know, the other thing too is just I've learned that being you know, sometimes we think of, you know, and this is something I know we talk about in our, in our course, Julie is just the difference between contractors and employees and how you have to treat those from an IRS standpoint in that sort of thing. You know, certainly hiring somebody as a contractor on the surface is easier and it's clean cleaner, excuse me. But in the long run, when I switched all my people over to employees, I became much more profitable, which was interesting. And it's because I spent a lot of time running the numbers and knowing, knowing what I had to bring in and what they produced and to being able to pay him, pay him well.
Julie Herres:
Yeah. And what I typically recommend is for a group practice to keep that payroll, the clinical payroll for, for your therapists keep that around 55%. And so for some practices, that's going to be a little bit below some practices, a little bit above that, but if you keep that in that range, then that leaves room for overhead. It leaves room for admin. It leaves room for leadership and for owner's pay and profit. And I know when I say that 55%, there's probably going to be some gasps you know, from, from folks listening, right? Like, Oh, how I could it possibly. But that, that doesn't mean that everyone is at 55. That means that you might have some provisionally licensed center at 40%. You might have some folks with longer longevity that are higher. And that includes the payroll tax, right? So like there's going to be a mix probably.
Julie Herres:
But the reality is if that, if your wages for clinical employees are at 65%, that money has to come from somewhere. So it's either you have lower overhead or lower profit. Right. and it's so important to have PR to build in profit upfront because you're taking on all the risk as the business owner, right. You have a risk of someone slips and falls at your practice. You have the risk of getting sued, you have the risk of HIPAA compliance. And so for all of that risk, there has to be some reward or else there's no point,
Gordon Brewer:
Right. And plus you're paying their half of their FICA and, and all of that as well. So, I mean, it's just, yeah. It's yeah. And I think it's the, the other thing about it is, is that you know, being a private practice owner isn't necessarily for everyone, like I've got my, you know from a number standpoint, my top producing clinician was she's wonderful, has no desire at all, to be interested in the numbers. She says, you know, you pay me every week. I trust you. You know, you know, and she's, you know, she would not be successful as a private practice owner because that's just not her, her forte or under understand, you know, understanding that. And so I think in hiring people, you find people that really, you want people that are motivated and, and all of that, but there are people out there that they're just really don't want to be in private practice.
Gordon Brewer:
And so I think those are, you know, creating a place that is fun for them to work and a good place for, you know, and part of the trade-off for me too, with with my employees is, is that I give, I give them the flexibility of schedules they make, they make their own schedule. They decide when they want to work, don't want to work. I've worked out the numbers so that I know that you know, here's a particular, you know, this is what, this is kind of the level I'd like for you to kind of shoot for, if you want to go above that or just stay below that, that's fine, but I've looked at my numbers and I know that I can, can make it work. And so you can count on that revenue. Right? Right. Absolutely. Yeah.
Julie Herres:
Yeah. Private practices is not for, for everyone. Not everyone wants to do deal with the website and the sales and the marketing. And the truth is when you're a business owner, you're kind of always on, right. And a lot of people want to come in, do their clinical work and then just go home. And there's a place for that. So I think a lot of business owners approach first hire from the standpoint of if I was to work for someone else, what would I want to be making at this point? And so, and that's why they tend to shoot it.
Gordon Brewer:
Bye.
Julie Herres:
And, and set that number high. And we're not saying we don't want to take care of employees. That's not at all the case, but there has to be profit or else there shouldn't be a business. If you're not going to have profit from employees, you should just stay solo practice owner. Right. Yep. All right. So Gordon, what financial advice do you have for clinicians who are either going into private practice or scaling their business?
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. So one, one, one thing I would say, u, read the book profit first by Mike McCalla wins. And I think that, that, u,en I read that book, u,d I've read it several times now, just the light bulb went off in my head and it was just kind of like, okay, this is how you do it. And it's more about allocation and percentages rather than trying to figure out exact numbers. And it's, u,ah.
Julie Herres:
The piece that clicked for you, the percentages versus specific dollar amounts.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Interesting. Yeah. And so I think that's that's the thing. And I think the other thing I would say the financial advice that I would give is you've got to start, and this is just, this is not only financial, but just with practice in general, private practice is know your, why know, why you want to do this thing and have a clear understanding of that. And most of the time that's linked to our lifestyle. And just thinking about what is the lifestyle you want to create for yourself and using your practice as a vehicle because you can get bogged down really. I mean, there are, I know of clinicians that are in private practice and they're going, they're going blazing guns with the number of clients I have and the number of the work they're doing, but they're still burned out.
Gordon Brewer:
And so, and it's because they haven't really looked at their lifestyle, what they really want for themselves. You know, if you need a certain income level in order to maintain your lifestyle, how do you then think about how you structure your practice in order to do that? You know, there's for a solo practitioner, there's eventually a ceiling there because there's only so many, only so much you can charge per session and only so many clients you want to, you can see in a particular week. And if that, you know, if that income level is where you want to be, and that supports your lifestyle and that's, and there are a lot of people like that, they, they want to keep it at that level and no more. And that's great, but you've got to really kind of ask yourself, you know, really what you want and where you, you know, and thinking about where do you want to be a year from now five years from now, 10 years from now and ask those questions and then build it, build it that way.
Julie Herres:
That's great advice. I was going to ask you what your favorite business or money book is. Is it profit first or do you have another one?
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, that would be, that would be one, but another one, hhat I really like is, ht's called company of one. Um,d th it's by a guy by the name of Paul Jarvis. And it also, it talks about what I just talked about, or just about building the right size business that fits you rather than just building something for the sake of it, getting bigger with the Jones, u,ght, right. Are comparing yourself to others and, you know, find what fits for you.
Julie Herres:
Very good. So Gordon, you and I we've teamed up over the years on a lot of different webinars and you graciously invited me to collaborate on money matters in private practice. And we were actually just talking about maybe bringing that course back with a new version of it. So we've got today a coupon code, right. For anyone interested in checking out the course. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes. So why don't we w I've got one,udepending on when this podcast episode comes out, I've got one right now for, mor August of 2020, which is a 20% off, and it's just Aug 2020, but why don't we do, mo another one that's gonna extend to when this episode comes out and we'll talk about that, but why don't we just say, u,st, just Julie, 20, 20, u,
Julie Herres:
20, 20. Okay. That's bond code 2020 for 20%. Okay.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes. The money matters course. Yep. So,
Julie Herres:
Perfect. Well, thanks so much, Gordon. It was such a pleasure having you we're going to link to the practice of therapy and all of your courses in the show notes. And thanks for coming on.
Gordon Brewer:
Thanks, Julie. This was great.