The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer 0:00
This episode of the practice of therapy podcast is brought to you by blueprint health. Find out more by going to practice a therapy.com/blueprint health. And also it is brought to you by therapy notes, and you can find out more about them by going to practice of therapy.com/therapy notes

Hello, I'm Gordon Brewer, and welcome to the practice of therapy podcast, where we explore the business and clinical sides of running a private practice.

Hello, this is Gordon Brewer, and welcome to the practice of therapy podcast. And this is episode number 216 of the podcast. Welcome, everyone. Glad you're here, glad you're listening in and hope you're doing well. And if this is the first time that you've listened to the podcast, welcome, hope you'll come back and listen to more episodes. It's hard to believe we're up to 216 now been doing this for a while now. I realized the other day that I've started the podcast actually back in 2017. So there's a lot of water under the bridge since then. But one of the things about this particular episode, if you'll go all the way back to episode number four of the podcast when I started it, you'll get to hear my guests that guest on this one as well. And that dogma got my good friend Dr. David Hall, he was he was actually the first person I interviewed on the podcast. And David and I have just a wonderful friendship. And he's one of my, my best cohorts and colleagues in this. In this whole space. David is the person behind psych Maven. And you can find out more about them at site maven.org. But the one of the things about people like David, and when I say people like David, I'm really holding him up as an example of the kind of person that all of us needs to have. If we're in private pact practice. And that is a trusted colleague and friend that we can bounce things off of. And David and I get together probably we chat at least once a week or at least every other week. Just checking in with each other and seeing how things are going within our practices. If we need to vent about something that's going on in our practice, whether it's with our employees or just whatever might be going on. David is my go to with that. And David and I have collaborated on a lot of stuff over this last few years, with his collaborating with his organization, Psych Maven, Psych maven.org. And David really has spent a lot of time and teaching count other counselors and therapists, about setting up continuing education courses and also creating other streams of income within their practice. So anyway, looking forward to hearing my conversation with David, where we just talk about some of the growing pains of running a practice. So I'm going to get to David here in a minute. But before we do, a couple of things I want to let you know about one is and then we mentioned this in the in this particular episode is that David and I put together another webinar just on scaling your practice. And you can find out more about that by going to practice of therapy.com/group you can check that out is a free webinar that we've put together. It's an automated webinar. So you get to pick the time that you want to watch it, where David and I just talked about some of the common Growing Pains around running a group practice or some of the misconceptions that people have around starting a group and so it's a free webinar, love for you to check it out. And the other webinar that I've got out that is another automated webinar that you get to pick your time and decide when you want to watch it is the webinar that I did on using Google workspace in private practice. And if you go over to practice of therapy.com/webinars That's where you can locate the link to that particular webinar on using Google workspace in private practice. And actually the other webinars that I mentioned that David and I will be at that same location, so you can get to it either way. But the best way to find out about all the current webinars, and my webinars are always nearly always free. So it's just a free resource for you. And you, as I said, we're get moving to having more automated webinars. So you get to pick the time because I know it's, sometimes it's hard for people to find the right times. So anyway, looking forward to you hearing my conversation with David. But before we do that, I'd love for you to hear from our sponsors of the podcast, and that is blueprint health, and also therapy notes.

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Welcome again to the practice of therapy podcast. Hello, David Hall. Glad you're back.

David Hall 8:28
Good. I am anyone been on the podcast more than me, Gordon?

Gordon Brewer 8:32
Um, I don't know. Probably not. I think you're you're pushing up. You're pushing the envelope here. So that's a that's a good thing. So but for those of you that don't know, Dr. David Hall, David Hall is one of my, one of my primary colleagues and just this whole space and David and I've known each other Oh, going on probably five, six, maybe 10 years, 10 years. 10 years, Gordon, that's hard to believe, hard to believe. And so what one of the topics that's kind of risen to the top for us here lately is just growing pains and that we both are experiencing it in different ways. But before we get into that, David, for those folks out there that might not know anything about you tell them a little bit about you and your journey and where you are and how you landed where you've landed.

David Hall 9:23
It is it is a journey. It's a weird journey. Yes, as Gordon said, my name is Dr. David Hall in the creative lead of psych Maven Psych maven.org. We provide continuing education courses and other curated business resources and practice growing things for behavioral health professionals and you can find us at Psych maven.org. I also am a group practice owner in Knoxville, Tennessee, which is about an hour and a half from work ordinance. And I among other things, I've got my own podcasts launching in the Planning first quarter of 2020. To the fresh therapist. It is a lifestyle and humor podcast for therapists. And Gordon, a very prompt scored in our first interview spot because I was Gordon's first interview spot. And so it feels need to be reciprocal. But you can find that at fresh therapist calm. And so yeah, so that's those are the different things that that I do. And you Gordon, I met I love telling the story. When I started doing continuing education workshops. The first independent workshop I did was in 2012. And the first person that ever paid me for workshops independently was Gordon. And that's how we met. Yeah, we had not like I didn't know, I cold emailed, Gordon, I found his contact information on I think on a therapy directory. It wasn't Psychology Today is it's something that's defunct now, I think, yeah. And I thought, Oh, this is a therapist that isn't too far. Maybe he wants to come to this training. And he did it. And he bought, and that's how we met. And so Gordon was the first person that ever, ever paid me to do a training. So I, I, and I've been relationship I've cherished in the sense.

Gordon Brewer 11:08
Yes, yes, I and did I do all of that, for me, one of the things that David and I have been collaborating on. And I know there's probably some listeners out there that have happened upon this or heard about it for me, but we've put together a webinar just on going from solo practice to group group practice, but we've kind of tweaked it a little bit, here recently to really thinking about what are the kind of the growing pains that you go through in your, in your practices, and how we, how we handle those things. But that's what David and I wanted to talk about today is just, you know, those things that come up in our practices were really can be just kind of a pain in the butt to to handle in your practice, but it's part of growth, and being able to accept some of that, some of those difficulties. So, David, what, what is it that comes to mind for you, when you think of growing pains, and just really, some of the things that you've experienced?

David Hall 12:21
Or the first thing that comes to mind is money. But but but, yeah, I mean, it, you know, it's, it's, it's stretching, and it can be like, growth in our physical bodies, it can be good in the end. But pain is I think, the key word for growing pains. You know, Gordon, I, we again, he has gotten shared, we talk probably at least once a week about things related to our businesses. And what we do. And both Gordon and I have multiple things we do in our professional space. And you one of the things that we've been talking through with each other in the last several months is how to have more defined silos in organization and finances that, you know, we think of our different businesses differently, but oftentimes, the it can muddy the waters, because both of us at different ways at different times have had the money going in the same pot. And, you know, we both made efforts in the last several months to kind of separate things out. And so we can see how each thing we're doing is working by itself, and you know, what needs to be tweaked? And, yeah, it's I think it's just hard when you grow. I mean, right now, Gordon, you've got a team of seven. Have you ever had more people than that?

Gordon Brewer 13:38
Now? This is really the Yeah, I mean, in that, that doesn't include the virtual assistant that have working for me as well. And so yeah, so managing that number of people is a new, new thing for me.

David Hall 13:54
I'm at 14 in my team, which is, I think, the largest I've ever gotten. Maybe I ran a psychiatry practice before, and I'm trying to think of different admin. So it may have been close, then but and it's just I went my initial group practice was to have the therapist of me. So we were practice of three. And doing a practice of three is very different than doing a practice of 14. Right. And I'm not really organized. That's not one of the things I'm known for. I can get things done, but usually requires a lot of anxiety on my end, and guilt to pursue things and so it is, yeah, I think, you know, as we talk about Gordon, I'm curious what it is for you. A word that's coming to mind as we're talking through it. It's there's, there's kind of a disorientation, I feel in growth, not that I can't reorientate or kind of get my bearings, but it's sort of like Okay, where am I? Where's everything. It's hard to have a feeling of high touch with everything you're doing when you're growing,

Gordon Brewer 14:58
right? Yeah, as I think about that, And I know this is something that I've struggled with as well, is being grounded in my why, as I like to call it, you know, what is? What ultimately, what is the purpose of my growth? You know, why? Why do I want to grow? Why do I want to add more clinicians and all of that sort of thing. And I think for me is, you know, something that's on my radar is just thinking about retirement and eventually getting out of Quanah, kind of the clinical side of things and moving more fully into kind of the consulting side of things where the, where I've kind of built the practice of therapy and that platform and what that looks like in that sort of thing. And wearing those two hats is finding a balance with that. But also, just, with when anytime we're scaling, anything, it does require being able to outsource things more. And I think giving up that control, to some degree has been, you know, to some degree three, a struggle point for me, but it's, um, yeah, and I know, one of the things you and I had talked about, have talked about several times is just finding that balance at but both David and I are Enneagram tubes. So we we are naturally, kind of generous people in wanting to be, you know, pay our people well, we want to be, you know, want them to have a great place to work and that sort of thing. But we also can do that to a fault to some degree. And so I have

David Hall 16:49
both faulted in at different times in the, you know, as I've only recently got into Enneagram. And for those who haven't yet, check out Psych maven.the.org, we've got some resources on that great course that we host, Whitney, and James Owens, the teach, and that's what really kind of got me deeper in it. But one of the things I learned about the Enneagram twos is that under stress, we move to eight, and eight is the challenger. And it's like, and for me, where I have to balance is I I like being generous. I like kind of, but when I feel people are not as grateful as I want them to be or kind of, then I have, there's a part of myself. And it's and I will clarify too. Oftentimes, I have very grateful people, I work with staff and other people, I don't really deal with people that are pretty ungrateful, but I can, in my in myself get really in that mindset. And then, and it's a stressor. And I've in you know, but going back to Golden State of knowing your why is I think a good touch point to kind of go back to and the other thing is really systems. And I think one of the hard things about embracing systems sometimes is to do that, well, we have to be willing to give up a certain amount of control. Mm hmm. And for me, that's hard. I won't speak for boring for me, that's hard. But like one of the things that Gordon, I've been talking about collaboratively, is investing more in some collaborative VA resources this year. That's one of our things we're talking about in 2022. Because we both use vas. But there's certain things that we do that we think we could actually share resources. And I recently shared a podcast episode with Gordon phizzer. Interested it's the online course show was shock Hopkins, and it's Episode 98, and talking about outsourcing with virtual assistants. And I was really, like, inspired by the episode and feeling like possibilities. And so what I do is I send it to Gordon Gordon, I send podcast episodes to each other constantly. And, and I'm like, do you want to, and but for me, as I look at it, you know, I realized that for me to grow in a healthy way. I've got to be willing to offload some things. But the pain point is giving up the control that that will require.

Gordon Brewer 19:15
Oh, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, I think in those last episode I did. I told the story just about how I'm kind of a consummate tinkerer. And I enjoy. You know, I kind of enjoy learning the process of bootstrapping. But it's not always a great use of my time. I can I can get lost in the bootstrapping part of it, which ends up bogging me down. And then all the other stuff that gets handed to me just becomes overwhelming at that point. And so being able to, to know how to kind of divvy it out and being able to do And going back to what you said, David, that systems and processes of handing that off to people of being able to, you know, no, they're not going to do it the way I would do it exactly. But in the end, they'll get it to the, to the finish line, so to speak.

David Hall 20:17
Yeah. Well, and related to that as an Enneagram. Two, this is something I struggle with, it's holding people accountable. Because oftentimes I'll, I'll make a request. And someone's not just that they're not performing in the way that I expect. But it's just it's not happening. And I'm quick for me, I'm quick to say, Oh, it's fine. I'll do it. And it's enabling an unhealthy system. And I've had to really challenge myself in in this phase of career in life to not do that. Yeah. Because the bootstrapping thing that Gordon talks about, like when you're really starting out, and depending on where you are in your work and practice journey, that could be absolutely what you need to be doing. Because you may have time and not a lot of other resources to spend. And so bootstrapping, but there comes a point in any professional journey, if you're growing, that you can't keep doing that, that you're doing a disservice, not just to yourself, but to other people, by continuing to bootstrap, because you're eating up your time and emotional resources, doing things that you don't have to do, that somebody else could do in a more efficient way, in a less expensive way. And if you're particularly if you're leading a team of any size, it becomes your responsibility. If your time isn't just for you, it becomes a responsibility that you owe to other people as well. And that's what I've had to really reframe for myself, too. to force myself in that, okay, I've got to let this go. For this to be healthy.

Gordon Brewer 21:57
Right, right. Yeah. It's stuff that we a lot of times. It's stuff that we say to our clients as mental health providers, but we don't, you know, it becomes difficult to apply to ourselves, you know, do as I say, not as I do.

David Hall 22:14
Well, that's the thing. And Gordon, I both say this as teachers and consultants, and I do hope you check out it's up now, as this podcast episode is coming out. It's our scaling without failing automated webinar. We've We've done it live. And then we ended up redoing it, we tweaked it some again, we tinkered made it streamlined a bit more, and now it's available in an automated schedule format. And you can find that at practice. therapy.com/group.

Gordon Brewer 22:44
Yeah. And you can also go to what the practice of therapy.com/webinars and there'll be a link for it there as well.

David Hall 22:52
Yeah, you know, one of the things we talk about as it's, it's a lot of dues we say not as we do, but part of it. I don't take that as a PA Chrissie, I take that as we are very serious in this lesson. We just haven't learned it completely yet ourselves. But it doesn't mean it's not a true lesson. And we share in this webinar, we share a lot of our experiences of why the things we share about scaling are important. Because there isn't a single thing that we I don't I do not think there's a single thing we share in the webinar session, that isn't something that was a acute pain point for us sometimes multiple times, right. And it's why we want to share it with you. So you don't have to go through in the same way.

Gordon Brewer 23:35
That's right. That's right. I've always said that I've learned a lot of stuff the hard way. And I don't think everybody else does certainly have to do it that way.

David Hall 23:45
You know. And so that's what really inspires Gordon and I as consultants and teachers is that we don't want it to be as hard for everybody else. A lot of what drives us, that we've talked about with each other is we want to be the people that we wish we had in different phases of our career. Mm hmm. I would have loved to I mean, I love knowing Gordon now, but it would have made a huge difference in my journey as a clinician, if I'd met him 15 years ago, if I met the version of Gordon now 15 years ago, with his experience and kind of what he has, because there are a lot of shortcuts he could have given me. Right. And I think that for myself, if I had met my younger self, there are a lot of shortcuts I could give me. And so if I think of that, I think about how can I do that for other people that work as mental health providers. Right,

Gordon Brewer 24:32
right. Right. So David, as you as you think about growing pains, is there a particular anecdote or story you can share that?

David Hall 24:44
No, you're no top of your

Gordon Brewer 24:45
mind. Yeah,

David Hall 24:45
no, your numbers. Um, I think it's something Gordon says all the time. It's something I now say all the time. I'm, I'm a fieldly sort of person. And the problem is, is I will make financial decisions a lot More about how I feel about money in that moment than what I actually need or don't need or what the actual numbers say. I do I feel it's not always in the generosity direction, sometimes it's in the tight direction. Sometimes I'll be too restrictive financially, because I feel that or I will be too loose, because it feels like oh, yeah, the money's coming in. It's great. And I've really, you know, I'm not. I did a liberal arts degree, I'm not a trained business person or math person, but I've really had to learn Excel, or whatever system you use spreadsheets Well, and, you know, I've really and I need, I learned to be diligent in looking at inputting data, looking at it, checking it, it can't be how I feel, because emotions are fickle. And to really scale well, I need to have it sort of like my father is learning how to fly right now. And so we talk about it a lot. And he's, but you know, in airplanes, there are things like artificial horizons in the plane, where you, you fly by instrument, because sometimes you don't have the visuals. And I think to grow well, you need to have good instruments of whatever that is. So you know, in my own course, it can't just be like, you know, because if you're flying a piney, you're not checking your panels, you can be oriented wrong. And for deadly results, and I think the same thing can happen and you're growing, right? So that's, you know, anecdote, I think I've, I've lost touch of my numbers at different times. And, and part of it is, as numbers grow, it's easier to lose touch, like is, you know, when you have a smaller gross revenue in your practice, and fewer clinicians, it's easier to keep track of pieces. And as your gross revenue goes up, and your expenses go up, and your clinicians go up, or, you know, in my teaching business, I've got about 12 courses, large courses planned out for 2022. And 2020. I think I did five. So they're just more pieces to play, you know, to, to keep track of and all that. So I think that's it realizing that, you know, to scale, well, you can't touch everything. And that's the metaphor, I think of like I can't. And so I need the systems in place to really let me know my own track. But yeah, it's yeah, I've. And the other thing about that comes to mind is as administrative, you have something small happens, or something that would be small if you're a solo practitioner, but when when that same thing changes, the price goes up on a product, but you times that by 14 is. So that's, I mean, that's not a specific anecdote, just a principle. But yeah, what about you, Gordon? Yeah,

Gordon Brewer 27:51
that's, uh, you know, I think, kind of some along the same lines, I think one, one growing point that I think back on for me, and again, it's tied to knowing your numbers, is when I end it was the point at which I switched from having contractors to employees. And so when I, you know, I felt good that I was, oh, I'm paying them this high percentage. And, you know, I'm being very generous and all of that. But when I sat down and looked at my numbers, I was not making any money. Because I was taking not only what I produced, in other words, from the clients that I saw, to pay them, the the additional, because I didn't look at my numbers. And so, you know, I ended up you know, I had some people that stayed with me, and, you know, when I made that transition, but for the most part, I lost most of the people that were with me at that time, because, you know, I was, I was being overly generous with them, and they weren't willing to take the pay cut it, but actually, it ended up with the people that stayed with me and ended up that they ended up doing much better moving to being an employee, because they were no longer having to pay that self employment tax

David Hall 29:12
sometimes to grow, you have to prune. And I think maybe that's an example as well, like, Mm hmm. Because, you know, Gordon, he's a large practice he's ever had now, but he had a larger group before and then it shrunk when you did the transition. And so it was you have people that worked with you that they moved on, you know, to do different things anyway, but I think sometimes we think healthy growth is a unidirectional thing, but it's always you know, I if it's growing a group practice, it's like you have two people that I have four people that I have, and the truth is, you can run the best group ever. It will fluctuate, people if you if you attend the webinar, you know, Gordon, I talked about what the size of our practices when we record it, and it goes like I've I haven't had a lot of turnover in my group practice. But I've had, I have had turnover. You know, people leave for any number of reasons, or people are encouraged to leave for any number of reasons. Yeah. And I think sometimes that can feel really discouraging, because it feels like I'm going in the wrong direction. But you know, for Gordon as what he just shared like That was you, you have to change that direction, because basically, Gordon was paying people to work for him. Like, but, of course, you're paying people were, but like, you were supplementing people's pay out of your client fees. And so it was kind of, yeah, the whole point of having other therapists

Gordon Brewer 30:37
in your practice. They weren't, it wasn't sustainable. In that scenario, and it was just simply the mistake I made is that I did not look at my numbers close enough. I don't like you were saying earlier, I've made it made a decision based on Oh, this feels good, you know? Yeah. And so yeah, it felt felt right, and an actual actuality it wasn't. So

David Hall 31:00
if you have a group practice, like part of you, the sustainable is an important phrase that Gordon brought up, and it's really important to have it sustainable. Because if it's not the nobody, you know, you're not serving the clients, you're serving as a group. People don't have jobs. You know, oftentimes, you know, whether they're independent contractors or employees, there can be a short sightedness, you know, not necessarily to fall, but it's just they're in a different role of like, well, I'm making less money, I don't want to do this. It's like, well, but unless we make this adjustment, there's no plan, there's no practice. Those are hard decisions. And it's particularly hard. I think one of the biggest things as a leader, whatever role you have, is to be able to admit mistakes to yourself and others. Mm hmm. And if you have this idea that being a good practice leader involves, you know, always saving face and it always, you know, you can try that I don't, I wouldn't recommend it. Right? Yeah, I've had some very honest conversations with my staff at times about times that I've even made a mistake. But just this idea of, you know, COVID has been a great example, for that we've had a lot of protocols in place, in how we run the physical space of our office in COVID, and fluctuated. And I have people that have been more on board than others about the things I've done. And I've said this multiple times, to my staff, as we were going through the pandemic was, look, I accept the decisions I'm making may not be the right decision. But somebody has to make a decision, and I'm the person in that seat. So I'm not, I'm not going to stand behind that this is this is completely right. And then nothing will change. But someone's got to decide something. And that's right.

Gordon Brewer 32:46
Right. Well, no, another thing that you and I have talked about David is a PART part of the growing pains thing is to be able to accept and know that you're going to have some painful moments along the way. In that it's, um, you know, I think that we we aspire to have like a well oiled machine, but there's always going to be things that crop up. You know, I think one of the hard ones is, you know, some of your you and I both experienced this where we've had some of the clinicians that we were so proud of to have that up and decide to leave. And so that that's always a tough blow, but then you you recover from that. And then the other extreme is that having having clinicians or people that are just not a good fit, and they're not, they're not, you know, pulling their weight and, you know, performing well and having to let them go and those are those are both when those things happen. It is a great, great growth experience. To see it

David Hall 33:56
is a great is a painful one. When people quit, particularly people who quit, you don't want to quit. I know for me it can it can touch on a lot of you can call it ego but it's also the sense of like, Am I good enough? Am I like in this fear? Oftentimes, that will create fear in me, it's like, is everyone gonna go when anyone has chosen to go? It's like I say it, you know, it might go to be and that often will lead me to make poor boundary decisions because I'm trying to keep people settled, or the idea of someone needs to go you know, it is it's funny. I'm not super conflict avoidant as a therapist, but as a boss I can be. I've had a really challenged that myself. Right. And I've had in you, Gordon, I have talked about it quite a bit. And we've shared different versions of this anecdote, but but Gordon was going through a situation and one of the things he said to me was You're not very like he needed to fire somebody. And he goes, I'm not really good at this. And I said, Well, Gordon, of course, you're not good at this. You're a therapist, like, you're the instinct to fire people instinct to be a mental health provider are not the same instinct right out of our encounter tonight, where empathy and compassion and kindness and all these things are so important in our therapy work in our lot of relationships, like is important component of being a boss. Right. But it has to be tempered by boundaries, right?

Gordon Brewer 35:34
Really does really does. Well, David, I want to be respectful of your time. And I'm sure, well, I know that David will be back on the podcast at some point. Here in the future, I did want to mention that we do have this new webinar that we've kind of talked about, and I did double check it, it's practice of therapy.com/group, without an S. And you can, you can find that, and we'll have that in the show notes here. But really, would invite everybody to go over and check that out. Whether you're thinking about going in group practice or not. I think it's good information that we put together just about, you know, growing pains, and just really things that we've learned along the way about scaling your practice and being able to kind of take it to the next level.

David Hall 36:28
Yeah, one of the things we say in the webinar, that we designed it for people who are in solo practice, or thinking about going into group, but it's also, we probably speak just as much, if maybe not a little more to people who already already are in group practice, and are thinking about what is growth look like? Or people that are not even in practice at all, you may be an employee somewhere, and you're just trying to look out future why's of and it goes to a Gordon was talking about having a clearer idea of why. Because I think a lot of people assume that their y always will lead them to being in solo practice, or being on their own. And I had a conversation with a staff member of mine, very recently. And they were saying, basically, they were looking at their numbers and what they were able to make as a context in the context, the group, they're like, I don't really think I could do better on my own. And I don't really want to be on my own. So, you know, I but I think when for those of us who go through this journey, I think we all kind of assume that's the end point. Maybe not everybody, but I think a lot of us assume like it's gonna look like this. And a lot of what we get into the webinar is, is it maybe it looks like that? And if it does, let us help you see some things. You know, some we call them transformational tips, because they were very transformational for us when we finally learned them your experience, right? They help you see like, is this good? For me? Would it not be? And what's the timing and all those questions? So yeah, I really hope you all check that out. It's it's an automated format. So you can watch it a lot of different times. And we really hope you get value. Yeah,

Gordon Brewer 38:02
yeah. And, again, there'll be links in the show summaries and show notes. And just another thing too, just to give folks just a little bit of leeway. I know another project that David and I are working on is in particularly around David's expertise, and having continuing education courses and teaching people how to do those those types of things. We're going to be doing some more information on that. And yeah, just go

David Hall 38:32
back, you have to look up and Gordon plug this in the show notes. I came we did an episode I think was either 2019 or 2020. About where I came on talking about doing C courses. And so it since then, I've I've grown my offerings quite a bit to help because as Gordon was alluding to, I've been a continuing education provider for over 10 years at this point. I can tell you it's one of the biggest things in recent since the pandemic a lot more people have been interested on diversifying their income and right yeah, we'll have some more resources through. Yeah, therapy on that.

Gordon Brewer 39:07
Yeah, sir. Thanks. So Well, David, thanks again for being on the podcast and be sure and check David out at Psych maven.org.

Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed listening in on my conversation with my good friend, Dr. David Hall and just give you some things to think about just around the growing pains of running a practice. And I'm sure there are a lot of you out there that can maybe commiserate to some degree, but I think the main point is is that all of this stuff of running a practice is very doable, and there are so many resources out there that you have available to you that weren't necessarily When I first went into private practice, so we're fortunate in that sense, but do check out the upcoming webinar that David and I are doing together. And it is, again on scaling your practice. And you can find out more about that by going to practice of therapy.com/webinars. And you can also find my other webinar that I've recently released. Both of these are our automated webinars. In other words, you get to pick the time at which you want to watch it. And you can find out more about it, it's using Google workspace, in private practice is the name of that web webinar. And it is located to at practice of therapy.com/webinars. And that will get you to the page where you can see all of the current webinars listed. And just recently put that page up as a resource for folks. If you're wanting to do just some more in depth stuff with, with your practice and learning some different skills, I've got one, that's going to be coming out soon another free webinar on being on insurance panels and starting to learn about insurance. And if you want to be be able to accept third party payers in your practice, know, there's a lot of debate around that particular topic. But anyway, be sure to check it out practice of therapy.com/webinars. And one of the things I want to mention here at the end, kind of upcoming conference that I'm going to be involved in, called the faith and practice conference. And it's being sponsored and put on by the practice of the practice. Whitney Owens and Joe Sanok. Over there are putting this together. And I'm going to be one of the speakers at that conference. And it's going to be held down in Jekyll Island on the coast of Georgia. It's a beautiful location right on the beach. And it's going to be at the Marriott down there. And so looking forward to that. And you can find out more about that, but going to practice of therapy.com/f phi p. And that's just faith and practice. And that'll get you to the right place for that, for that upcoming conference. It's going to be in April. And so I would love for you to find out more about that. I think there are a few tickets left for that conference, it's going to be a smaller conference. And that is going to be limited to 100 people. So anyway, check it out. And as always, big thanks to our sponsors of the podcast, blueprint health, you can find out more about them by going to practice of therapy.com/blueprint health. And they are a platform that will help you measure what you're doing better. And so the Be sure to check them out. And as always to be sure to check out therapy notes. And you can find out more about therapy notes by going to practice of therapy.com/therapy notes. And when you go to that page, and you want to check them out, try them out for two months for free. You can do that by using the promo code. Gordon just Gao R doe and, and also, when you go to that link that I mentioned earlier, for blueprint health practice of therapy.com/blueprint health, you can try them out for one month, but just by simply using that link, link. So take care folks, I'm looking forward to some future episodes here. Got a lot of great guests lined up and be sure to follow the podcast wherever you might be listening to it, whether it be on Apple podcasts or Spotify or Stitcher or Google podcasts, hamazon audible, all of those are places were located but be sure to check us out there and and be sure to follow us wherever you might listen to that. So take care folks, hope you have a good rest of your week.

You have been listening to the practice of therapy podcast with Gordon Brewer, part of the psych craft network of podcasts. Please visit us at practice of therapy.com For more information, resources and tools to help you in starting building and growing your private practice. And if you haven't done so already, please sign up to receive the free private practice startup guide at practice of therapy.com. The information in this podcast is intended to be accurate and authoritative concerning the subject matter covered is given what the understanding that neither the host guests or producers are rendering legal accounting or clinical advice. If you need a professional you should find The right person for them