The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Okay. Okay, whenever you're ready, do the blurb.

Steve Turney
Hi, this is Steve tourney with the mental health marketing conference, I'm really excited to be on the practice of therapy. And we're going to be talking about this conference that I run and host every year, and a little bit about mental health awareness and sort of the state of the industry today.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcasts. And I'm so glad to have with me today, Steve Turner, he has Steve

Steve Turney
Gordon, it's really nice to be here. How are you?

Gordon Brewer
Good, good. And I've been looking forward to this conversation just because Steve and I had had the opportunity to connect and talk about what he's doing and kind of how he's involved with just our whole field and profession, and in particular, the mental health marketing conference that's coming up in September of 2023. So, but Steve, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?

Steve Turney
Yeah, so I live about an hour north of Nashville, where my wife and I and our daughter live, we play and work a lot in Nashville. And then we, we live just a little bit north. It's famous for Corvettes, and maybe Fruit of the Loom and giant caves is what we're known for. So maybe not all at the same time. But those those are fun. And then how I got to this conference, I'm the owner and executive director of an annual event called the mental health marketing conference. And it gathers providers and therapists and clinicians together with executive directors and CEOs, and then a lot of dedicated marketers, either from a creative agency, or maybe in house at a behavioral health organization or addiction treatment center. And I'm excited to connect with you, Lisa mustard, one of one of the folks within Site craft and that network connected with me a few weeks ago. And as it always goes, one thing leads right to another in these relationships. So I'm really excited to be talking with you.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes. And I'm thankful to Lisa for, for introducing us and, and Steve and I got really kind of built a connection. Just talking. We have in some ways kind of similar, growing up pas and that sort of thing. And so that was that was fun to talk about. So but yeah, so I guess the we can just start with tell folks about the conference that's upcoming. And just, I guess, to just how you kind of came up with the idea and got got involved in this.

Steve Turney
Yeah, so yeah, I was a pastor's kid. And I think there's some connection there perhaps. And, and I tell people, my dad was a pastor. So naturally, I went into sales, which is kind of a funny way to say that I was in the I was in the front row for a lot of my youth for a really great teacher, somebody who could spin an analogy or metaphor, any which way and just had a connection with getting up on stage and connecting with people. And I think that that still is something that echoes in me and, and a strength or a, you know, a gift that I've got that I try to use. And it's it's part of this conference, but I did not start it. A good friend of mine named Austin Harrison started it eight years ago. And I'd probably defer to his story. But needless to say, there were some mental health issues that came up with some significant others in his life at the time. And it just brought to light his sort of need to know more about mental health. And so he pursued starting this conference as a way to maybe combine one strength of his which is marketing and community building and creativity with maybe a weakness of his which is, hey, I need to know more about this space. And so, you know, eight years ago, he was two weeks out from the first conference and 20 people were signed up maybe and they were mostly friends and family. And so humble beginnings. He tapped into what is a wonderful Nashville community of people and health care and entrepreneurialism and beyond and he had more than 100 people show up for the first event. And he did that on his own. He pushed that boulder on his own for three or four years. When I turned 40. I went to a monastery for a few days and sort of used that big round number as an intentional check in point and I didn't grow up in the high church and so I was a little bit out of sorts and out of my element. But it was a neat experience. It's called the abbey of Gethsemane in Kentucky. And I came away with this idea this message of help people in need those four words so Have, I started to, you know, fill up people's cars with gas and things that were kind of clumsy but different than my normal behaviors as a way to stumble down this road. And then I realized, I know who I can really help. It's me I'm a, I'm a big problem in my own life. So part of that solution finding was to engage with a licensed professional counselor in the Nashville Brentwood area. And we worked through those heavy topics, shame and masks and family and all that, all that good stuff. And so came out of that with some real clarity. I mean, some scales really fell off my eyes and made progress not to say talk therapy is the silver bullet or for everyone, but it certainly can be an answer. In your experience in your life, and I, I felt like at the time there was there was this person who was truly seeing me and actively engaged with me. And I think that's part of the magic of talk therapy. So fast forward, Austin and I were having coffee one day, chit chatting about different things. He's at a world class animation studio. And he said, the conference came up and I said, Yeah, how's that going? It had been on my radar being an always in the Nashville market. And he said, Oh, you know, I could really use a little bit of help, probably booking speakers and sponsors this year, just life gets in the way sometimes. And those four words fell out, I was just how can I help. And so, you know, different associations and career development. In my life, I had come across experiences where I'd booked speakers and sponsors. So I said, Hey, that's kind of natural for me, let me jump in. And that was late 2018. So we shipped a really neat conference in 2019 grew the organization a bit. And then we were raring to go for 2020. And, while COVID was also raring to go, and COVID COVID tried to win, but I don't think it did. So we, we pivoted, we just had to change, as we all did, we have to adapt and change. And the fastest to change is sometimes the people who are the organizations that continue to go. So we went all virtual, and we gave away tickets, we just wanted to provide the content, we had really generous sponsors cover some of the costs of live streaming and such. And so 700 plus people showed up, and that was a win. And, and then 2021 was another challenging year trying to figure out what what COVID was doing and all and we decided to postpone, which was a really tough decision. And so leading us to 2022, we had just a really exciting event, we had embarked Behavioral Health Foundation as as our big sponsor, and then a host of other sponsors, some that have been with us for years and years. And we're always so thankful for them, because they make this experience. They just turned it into something magical when it's mixed with the speakers that we bring, and the attendees who show up so 2022 was was our Phoenix Rising moment is what I call it. And we are really excited about this year, too.

Gordon Brewer
Oh, wow. Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I think, you know, one of the things that you said that I was thinking about was, you know, I think for most of us that are in this profession, as far as mental health providers, we all come to it out of a passion. I think for one, just being aware of our own kind of issues and things that we're working through and then seeing, seeing the value of helping others in that way. And, you know, I think that's, to me, when you think when I think about marketing, your practice is, is that you're able to get that message to people in a way that resonates with what they're struggling with and able to see how you can help with all that,

Steve Turney
huh? Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting insight. And you're right, I think, part of the passion is that we do have these experts and they have, you know, clinically tested rigorous expertise and we, we want that voice to get everywhere it needs to be and even if their celebrity is confined to their block that they're on or their community or town or maybe it's a national influencer, wherever that is how can they start local within their influence and a picture I sometimes paint is that the you know, there's the therapists on the stage at Madison Square Garden, and they have great things to say and and at the same time, how are they going to get their voice to the rafters up to the nosebleeds and I think about that in terms of social determinants of health and health equity and marginalized communities and you need a microphone as as great as you can be, just can't yell that long that loud. And so marketing is a is a megaphone or a microphone for the clinician. And then another point you made when which is just as interesting to me is, is the power of advocacy. You know, we don't necessarily have to defer and default to expertise as the only way up the mountain, there's also powerful lived experience and advocacy that can, you know, I see a lot of people enter the industry because of a change personal life experience. And we all know if we've had some of those moments in our life, how transformative they can be to set us on some different powerful path.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. You know, I know, the thing that's interesting, and this has been an observation of mine, just over the last couple of years is, you know, I've made connections with a lot of people that kind of specialize in marketing, mental health services, and that sort of thing. And, you know, the common thread that runs through with all of those people was people's stories is that they had their own kind of mental health or emotional, not necessarily crisis, but issue that they were dealing with. And they remember how difficult it was to find the right therapist for themselves. And so they go into kind of this whole mental health marketing field, out of a sense of I want to help others find the right person for them, when they when they go to seek services.

Steve Turney
Yeah, that's a really evolving field to just from the individual standpoint. And then there is a groundswell of organizations and also private equity money, sometimes fueling these initiatives and these innovations to help us connect better. For one, you know, with the state of things right now, and I don't, I don't believe we'll always have sort of the access challenges that we're experiencing right now. I believe that we've, we've through sort of moving past ignorance to awareness and beyond stigma, in many cases, I think we've, I think we've reached a point where we've kind of unearthed this demand that was always there. And so now the market has an opportunity to react to it. And then also, because there's so much demand, I think a provider can and should, responsibly position their brand in a way that lets them do the kind of work they want to do, most often, most efficiently without having to be so just have to work so hard at that all the time. You know, that's the beauty of marketing is the efficiencies that come with saying what you do and what you don't do, and, and keeping up with the tools and technology. And that's, that's tough in itself. So we see, more and more creative agencies actually flocked to this conference as a way to either learn about this industry that keeps running into them. And they may not know the language of mental health and behavioral health, or they have a roster of clients to the point that they've dedicated their entire service portfolio to mental health organizations.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. And I think, yeah, you know, as we, you know, this might be a good time to kind of pivot to talking about some of the trends just in mental health in general. And I know, for listeners of this podcast, they've I'm sure they've heard me say this before, you know, one of the silver linings to the whole COVID pandemic is, is that it? It made it okay for people to talk about mental health issues, and talk about the internal struggles that we all go through at different levels, around our emotions and feelings and all of that sort of thing.

Steve Turney
Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's interesting how COVID has that forced function of causing us to change and part of that is simply maybe not having another way forward, except to go right through the obstacle forward and talk about our problems and challenges and be creative and new ways to connect. So you know, I don't know, I don't know, if I, you and I would have connected exactly like this three or four years ago, you know, I didn't have this camera, or this lighting or this approach that I could easily spin up and connect with you face to face eye to eye right here. So that's just one example. And, and then I do think the, the ways that maybe, in the broadest sense, different generations react to, you know, talking about mental health. That's exciting to see I was having, I was having a pizza last night with a with a, a new friend of mine who was introduced to me by somebody else, and, you know, he's maybe in his 60s or 70s, I don't know and he served and London and Germany and he had a specific frame of reference for how to talk Talk about mental health or not. And it was so neat to be able to sit with him, he would look at me as a younger person. But I would look, I would look also upstream to, you know, the Gen Z and, and folks who are way more advanced than I ever was at their age about just being real about what we're going through. And that it's, it's so interwoven with the body and the mind, I think that's what we're realizing is healthcare has left this last bastion, this last silo of mental health. And it's, it's sort of, it's sort of this untapped area that we're still just now exploring, and I I'm so excited about I call this trend, the greatest space race since we've, we've since we decided to try to put a person on the moon, which is not the outer space, but it's just right between our ears, and there's just as big of a universe. And we may never, we may never get to the point where we fully tap into the depths of that universe, we're always going to need a safety net for things that we don't understand. Just like we can get too far out in space, and just what I don't think we can ever get there, just our own human limitations. But that's not to say we don't do this exciting work, and we don't make progress. And, you know, one of the biggest things that mental health coaching and therapy did for me was to take more agency in my own life. And ultimately, that's where you start is at home change begins at home, even if you're thinking about changing the world or, or landing on Mars, you know, it's it's something just as exciting, I think to plumb the depths of, of what my mind is. So, yeah, that's that's kind of what I'm seeing.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Yeah, you know, it's interesting, I was doing, doing some supervision with one of my, my employees yesterday, yes, she's a pre licensed clinician, and we were just talking about, you know, working with clients, I think a lot of times for those, those of us in the field, this field of mental health, we kind of take for granted the knowledge that we have about how to deal with emotions, how to cope with emotions, and, and being able to teach that to other people. You know, there's, there's a whole, there's a whole realm of knowledge that people have don't have that they don't, that they don't know, they don't have. And so, yeah, and so and I'm the same way, there's a lot of stuff. I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, I think, I think one of the things is, is that, and this, this hits to the the kind of the marketing side of things, I think the more we can share our knowledge with people, just even on the front end, I mean, just, you know, one example that comes to mind is, I know, this is something that's just really popular in, in social media these days within our, within our industry or our profession. And that's just doing a lot of memes about mental health and self care. And, you know, I think as those of us that are in this, you know, we read those memes as well, that's simple. But the truth of the matter is, is that that's not something that we can take for granted that everybody knows,

Steve Turney
yeah, memes, they're up there a viral archetype from who knows how long, you know, yeah. And the current iteration of, you know, snagging a picture and putting block letters on it is our is our interpretation of the meme. But that's a, that's a big, huge trend. And you had a lot of interesting things to say there. You know, another, the opposite side of that same coin is that, and I'm not a clinician, I don't pretend to be one. And I have as an example, as a story, I have a person in my life, I want to identify a very special person to me. And they are a tremendous play therapist, and they had to go to Wyoming to do some real deep sand tray work. And part of that training and certification was for them to do the sand tray work themselves. And I just sat back and watched how nervous they were to experience that even though, you know, if you turn to the tables, they would say, well, the sand just shows you, you know, I hardly even have to do analysis, the sand just speaks. And so for them to be put in that position. Sometimes, you know, whether it's called we called it in the technology world when I worked at an email marketing platform, eating your own dog food, you know, it's like, Well, are we doing our own email marketing? Are we are we doing these blocking and tackling things? You see it in the marketing world all the time with agencies Who are falling down on their own website and their own social media and email, I have that challenge because of resources and, and then on the clinician side, we do this thing called try on therapy, which lets any attendee of the conference, do an actual real onboarding session, because I'm not going to assume that simply because you're providing this mental health care that, that you're also providing that for yourself. Sometimes it is the cobblers kids that don't have shoes. And sometimes it's the cobbler that doesn't have shoes. So that's, that's kind of that hiding in plain sight opportunity. And we're taking that another step. Last year, we did group therapy on stage, which was a really neat experience. And we mainly use clinicians, because they had just sort of a great approach to that and talking about career burnout. And this year, we're going to do virtual reality. Try on therapy, and that is not that hasn't been solved for, you know, simply wearing the goggles for a long period of time can be, can be, can make you dizzy and different things and how are we going to provide this care, but those are curious questions that we can prod into. So we're going to be talking VR we're going to be we're going to have some goggles on sight, we're going to be talking AI, we're going to be talking psychedelics, we're going to be talking about hard conversations, because in my experience, this is talk therapies a lot about hard conversations that we push into that we get into instead of avoiding eye contact with them. And, and, and there's a there's an author, I really like named Nassim Nicholas Taleb and one cent one thing he says is, it's not the crime, it's the cover up. So you know, that's where I found myself, once I once I uncovered my own lies and my own strategies and tactics to cover things up, instead of just facing it head on. That's when that's when I was freed and open to to go forward. And that's what, if possible, I want for everybody who can possibly experience that. So yeah, it is a conference about mental health and marketing. But really, it's about it's about a lot more than that. And I think that's kind of speaks to the heart of it.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah, I think one of the things, again, that you just kind of sparked in my thinking is we, we, as therapists in general, and I'm painting with a broad brush, here, we can, we are real attentive to other people's needs, and knowing what's going on with others, but where we maybe missed the mark is being aware ourselves of what our own needs are. And one, one big mistake that a lot of us make is we will forsake our own needs, for the sake of clients, and impatience and that kind of thing, which is on the surfaces of noble thing. But in the long run, I think we do ourselves a disservice by not allowing ourselves to experience therapy. You know, I think every one of us in this profession needs our own therapist. And I think if we did our poll, I think we would all be shocked at the number of people that don't. And not I don't say that in a shaming way. But I mean, it's just something, I think we have to be aware of it. I love that idea of doing doing, like group therapy on stage, because that's, I think that that can impact people in many other ways. Because people that might not be on stage will, something will happen that will resonate with them, and create change for themselves.

Steve Turney
Yeah, it was moving, you could hear a pin drop and there, and they got pretty real, which I didn't know what would happen. I had a lot of apprehension myself. And, and you're right there is I think there's the individual and the community at all times acting and as much as we want to. And I have a lot of empathy toward that caregiver that wants to do as much as they possibly can and extend themselves and stretch themselves. And at the same time. One analogy that my brother gives me, he's about eight or nine years ahead of me, so he's always on the horizon, I can barely see where he's going and I ride his coattails. And he gives me these little bits of wisdom. I've started calling the Dave my Dave of the day. They happen so often. And he says, and he's a big formula. One guy, he says race cars have brakes, so that they can go faster. And, you know, I think Andretti said that and so it is when you are when you're maxing out and you're redlining all the time. That's when we start to lose races. And in the long game, maybe in the short game, you know, quarter mile, you can do that. But if we're simply if we're simply revving all the time, and there's no space and there's no quiet that's that gets to be unsustainable and and another come opponent that we're seeing more this year or the tech company. So we're gonna have a panel of technology companies. And there is some skepticism, I think from some providers about what is technology really doing? And and are they doing more harm than good in some cases, and and there's also some incentive talk and built into that, that we need to be aware of, maybe the structure of the incentives is changing. And we're uncomfortable with that. And I want to welcome that voice. And so sola May, from going digital, a wonderful conference about behavioral health technology is going to moderate a panel. And she's already introduced me to three or four national companies with a great presence that are trying to solve for this same challenge from a different a different direction, because back to your point that I saw a meme the other day, that was something to the effect of, I wish I could just text my therapist and say, Hey, what's up fam? Like, this is what's happening. And, and I don't know, I'm not good with slang. But that was the, the gist of it. And I picked up on that that was like, Okay, maybe that is already happening. Maybe you as the consumer don't know that there's an app or an experience that would let you have this Fractional Therapy. And, and to the point that the gentleman I was sitting with, with last night, and his own frame of reference in mind coming together and creating something new. You know, I think he said, what the words matter that we use, and and is therapy, the word getting in the way? And how do we understand fully the word trauma? And so I said, Yeah, I, I think of it as an analogy of professional athletes, like, if we go from the hypothesis that are the statement that the mind and the body are so intertwined, and we've separated them. And if we can put those back together, and say, How would a football player or soccer player whoever, optimize their performance on a day to day basis with those metrics, and it would be oftentimes engaging a strength coach or engaging a fitness coach, and we let's do the same thing, you know, and, and some people might need more coaching. So there's, there's a big wheel that we all spin of our bio luck, and some people have it very different than others. And that's where we're always going to have to have a compassionate safety net. And at the same time, the more that we can, it's education, it's a big part of education. And we see this around the world education is one of the things that unlocks unlocks our own power in our own our own agency. And I've even thought about taking this to other countries, you know, not just maybe over to the UK, but India and, and China or, you know, South Africa, different places that I think this conversation needs to actually unlock entirely the same way that we're seeing this battle over cryptocurrency and blockchain being sort of an unleashing of currency as both electricity and money. And if we can get that electricity, D siloed. From these market makers and get that flowing freely around the world. I mean, if I think about my body, I mean, breathing, blood flow, water, all of those things, my own energy, it's all it's all waves and, and flow. And I can tell when I'm clogged up, I can tell I've got something going on in my lungs. It's not as good as when I'm, when I can get out on the road and pound the pavement and get some miles in and come back refreshed. So if we think of ourselves as one and the world at the same time, then it's it's simply a body that we're we're trying to get healthy.

Gordon Brewer
All right, right. Yeah. Oh, boy. There's so much we can talk about Steve. Oh, yeah. No, yeah, I'm enjoying it. Oh, yeah. This is you. This is great stuff. This is exactly the kind of conversations I have. But I want to be aware of your time and be respectful of that. But as Wait, maybe kind of close to wrap things up. What what do you see as maybe some of them? Well, let's see how to ask this question. What what are you seeing as the some of the most important trends that we need to pay attention to in mental health marketing?

Steve Turney
Yeah. That's a great question and a big one. And I do I think we could talk for hours. It's been a lot of fun. I appreciate you bringing me on, I think. I think there are still big conversations to be had around access and payment for sure. And I think I think raising the tide on our, our little boat of awareness, mental health awareness through b2b means is one way that we can raise the tide on all of those boats, even to the point of maybe effecting policy or policy makers and making waves? I think the trends are, you know, we have to, we have to take very different approaches if we are taking insurance or Medicaid versus if we're a private pay organization. So those are, those are strategy decisions to be made. I think there are, again, because, you know, I think the mom and pop that hangs their shingle out right now fills up their books. And I think someone is coming to eat your lunch is what I think. And yes, there's a big sunsetting of, of clinicians at that age and have built the time that it takes to have that expertise. And I know that the trend of Gen z's, who are lightyears again lightyears ahead of the passion and the interest in this space, are going to create a new tidal wave of people passionate about solving for this themselves. And it may not, it may or may not be an hour long session, once a week, with a with somebody listening to you on the other side, it may look very different, just like this conversation 10 years ago, or 20 years ago was impossible, you know, we couldn't even hardly imagine that you and I could have this high def conversation and connect this human. So I would say let's stay open to the impossible. And there are going to be innovations probably being worked on or dreamed on right now that in 10 or 1520 years, at scale, potentially. And that's the other thing is that private equity and others are, are chipping away and working away at this very diligently with an expectation of a return. And a return is not just money, but long term success with solutions that work for the market. They're incentivized that way. So we always need to blend the heart and the mind. And, you know, for love or money, those kinds of things. I think that's I think we swing that pendulum too far, one way or the other. And it's certainly coming back, I don't think it's wrong or right. But you can certainly anticipate that there's going to be a shift back the other way. And hopefully we can find a center and sort of a peace with with that oscillation. But usually with like with all things, the market never moves in a straight line. It's always a wave, but it's forward. It's a it's a Fibonacci growth sequence forward. So that's, that's my optimism. Those are some of my trends that are interesting to me. And, yeah, I'd love to continue the conversation and hear what you have to think because you get to talk to all sorts of fascinating Oh, yeah,

Gordon Brewer
well, you know, I, I know, we said, we will wrap up, uh, here's one thought that I, that came to me and I, this is, again, an observation, you know, one of the, one of the, I guess, kind of the cornerstones of, of mental health therapy and mental health counseling, and that sort of thing is the is this whole idea of confidentiality, in that. And the reason it's there, I think, if you really think about it, is because for somebody to have a mental health issue, there's a stigma around it, or there's some sort of shame associated with that, which I think is maybe, you know, and, you know, certainly protecting people's privacy is, is, you know, a huge value, which I think always needs to be and be in place. But I think as we were as as we're increasing the conversation around mental health, and yeah, I think about celebrities and athletes and people that are coming out more and more about their struggles with mental health, and all the day all that goes with that. Confidentiality takes on a new takes on a new form, in a way. And so I think, yeah, and so I think with, with the advent of, you know, tech, and just instant access to everything. I think our paradigm for providing therapy and providing services, as you've alluded to, is gonna be it's gonna look totally different 510 years from now than it does now.

Steve Turney
Yeah, yeah. And maybe this is just my worldview. But I, I I react to that with that concept of, yes. And what is that? What is that balance? Because that's been a that was a big topic in 2022. Not just on stage with our conference, but in the coffee hours and the kind of informal chats that happen were, how much can I share what what can and can't I share and how am I going to leverage story without, you know, without disclosing something that I shouldn't And, and ultimately I think the the patient is walking that line between the Yin and Yang and saying, without being coerced or manipulated, I choose, I choose to make my story something that I can talk about and, and that's my decision. And, and then you can you can go down the road of how the clinician or provider or group can can use that to really connect with somebody much more than saying, oh, you know, one out of four, one out of five people are struggling and 50% of those people don't get care. Some of those things roll off our back compared to oh, I, I know, the principal at my high school and, and, and she's doing something with mental health and and we're more and more comfortable talking about that. And, and there again, I maybe this is just my personal preference. And I would agree with you on that point of, you know, whether it's, well, let's just talk mental health, if there is an aspect of my own health generally that I think I certainly hope we don't swing that pendulum to the point where I don't have a choice or free agency to say that I'd like to keep it private. If I if I choose. I think we can't, we can't say privacy is all bad or all good or either, you know, we can't we don't even need to label it. And but you're right, I think not. But and it is exciting to see how the information gets shared. I think that's what it is. We had, we had two directors of education from the Kevin Love fund. And he's just one example of a basketball player who was very open, and you never know what it means. And in my own little way, in my own little bubble, you know, to see that now, just a few years later, I'm running this conference. That's so exciting. And people love coming and the community is wonderful. And I you know, that all was from this little acorn that grew out of that experience for me. So we don't know how exponentially we can improve or fall off. You know, there's logarithmic movements here that are well beyond linear progress. So yeah, that's, that's my silver lining.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Well, Steve, again, I want to thank you for being on the podcast. And, again, we'll continue this conversation, I'm sure. Because there's there's lots of rich stuff here that we can, you know, I think we we all are passionate about and that sort of thing in our field. So tell folks a little bit more how they can find out about the conference and connect with you.

Steve Turney
Oh, thank you. Yeah. And it's so fun to talk to somebody so well versed and passionate about it. And thank you for having me on the conference is easy to get some more information to we just rolled out a new website, and the URL is M as in mental H as in health marketing.org. So mh marketing.org. We are, we have a call for speakers out right now we do provide CPUs, as well as a range of other content from 101 to very advanced marketing and advertising and PR topics. And then we always do some things for the humans, regardless of who you are, and your job title. You can also find us online on LinkedIn. So mental health marketing conferences where we're busiest will probably be quite a bit more active on Facebook and Instagram this year trying to do more of the things that we preach. And we do our best with that and, and then send me an email. If you need anything. I can make the experience different. It's all on the website there.

Gordon Brewer
Okay, awesome. And we'll have links in the show summary in show notes for people to access that easily. Well, Steve, again, thanks. Thanks for being on the podcast and I'm sure we'll be talking again here soon.

Steve Turney
My pleasure. Thanks, Gordon.