The Practice of Therapy

Gordon (00:05):
All right. So I'm Dr. Amy Forney Parks, and I am happy to be back on the Practice of Therapy Podcast. Thank you so much for having me today, Gordon.
Amy (00:17):
Well, hello folks, and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm so glad to have back with me, Dr. Amy Parks, walk of Amy.
Gordon (00:24):
Thank you so much, Gordon. I'm really excited to be at the Practice of Therapy podcast today. It's great to see
Amy (00:30):
You. Yes, yes. And it was really, it's really good to, uh, reconnect with Amy. Uh, we kinda go back ways, I'm not sure exactly. I know we, uh, we connected through different, um, you know, consulting kinda channels with different people that we all kind of crosspollinate with, but, um,
Gordon (00:49):
Yeah, we got some OG history, Gordon. Yes,
Amy (00:52):
We do. We do, we do. So well, uh, Amy, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've landed, where you've landed, and, uh, then we're gonna just kinda launch into this exciting thing you're working on.
Gordon (01:07):
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I am live in Virginia, so I'm on the East Coast like you are. Mm-hmm. and, um, or on the eastern side of the country. And, um, I am a group practice owner in Virginia, and we are practices called the Wise Family. We work with children, teens and families here in, in the Virginia area. And, um, so that's really what I do a lot of the time. And, um, and part of that work is, um, in addition to that is working with new residents. Mm-hmm. and I also teach at a university. I do the internship in, uh, practicum and internship courses there. And so the reason why, um, I, you know, reached out to you and sort of wanted to talk to your audience and, and, uh, jump in with you today was to talk about the new thing that I'm sort of, um, uh, you know, or got it really passionate about during the pandemic.
(02:00):
And, um, I sort of make a joke about this, but I, I guess I was maybe either bored or, I don't know, like a lot of people, maybe I drank too much or did something really wacky during the pandemic, but, you know, started to really realize that, um, you know, uh, we were really struggling. All of us were struggling with boots on the ground, you know, getting clinicians trained quickly and efficiently and well mm-hmm. , um, to do the work. And, um, I started to look around and, and, and to see that, you know, a lot of people, I don't know if you had this issue, but I know that I did struggle with finding supervision and, um, struggle with, you know, getting connected with their supervisors. And I started to look around during the pandemic to try to see, you know, how, how easy is it for people at the state level to find their supervisors?
(02:47):
Because my students were complaining about how tough it was. I knew a lot of people were struggling. I knew that I had had trouble finding a supervisor. And a lot of people get, you know, some people get lucky with finding a supervisor at their place of business, um, or where they get hired for for work, but that doesn't always happen. And, um, what I was discovering was many, many people were telling me the story that they found their supervisor, you know, through a friend of a friend of a friend or a colleague or asking somebody. And that's really how you find a good restaurant. That's not how you find the person who's gonna guide your professional career development mm-hmm. . And so I started, you know, really looking around and some states, some individual states do a pretty decent job of, um, of having some directories of, of supervision, uh, or supervisors.
(03:34):
But states throughout the country are not mandated to provide a list of the supervision supervisors, they credential mm-hmm. , they're just mandated to credential them. And so, like in Virginia, for example, um, up until recently we only just provided a list of the name and email address and the zip code of our supervisors. So that's all you got. And, and in fact, that list wasn't even kept up to date. So if the supervisor had died, you wouldn't mm-hmm. have even known and they just would never respond to you. And so, um, I just started to really look around and trust me, Gordon and I looked really darn hard because I didn't wanna have to solve this problem. I thought, surely our associations have figured this out. Mm-hmm. , surely someone has solved this problem, but no one had on a national level. And so I thought, well, you know, what happens to these universities graduates who leave, you know, their university in Virginia and go back to, you know, Tennessee to live, or they go to Maine to live, or they go back to Montana to live.
(04:33):
How do they find supervision there? You know, how complicated is that? And every state has different requirements as we well know mm-hmm. In counseling and social work. Right. And other disciplines l MFTs. And so I decided to mortgage my house and I, um, had a directory built that's called the Clinical Supervision Directory. And it is a connection superhigh, a national connection for supervision seekers and supervisors that is essentially, um, jokingly we say the Tinder of supervision without the dating, cuz you know, of course mm-hmm. , there is no dating in supervision, . Um, but it's, it's really a connection way for supervision seekers to find supervisors anywhere in the us and you can jump on for free as a supervision seeker mm-hmm. and put in your any kind of, any kind of parameter. So you, you can put in things like, for example, you were looking, you can look for a supervisor in your state that speaks Spanish or that is in a specific zip code or has business experience business, private practice building experience mm-hmm.
(05:43):
Or works in, uh, particularly say they're a Christian based supervisor mm-hmm. , they have experience in faith-based counseling or maternal health or something, you know, more specific niche, niche focused mm-hmm. , supervisors, you know, we've never had that before. Right. Ever, ever mm-hmm. . And, um, this is an opportunity for supervision seekers to really find supervisors that can match with what they are looking for in terms of training and support and quickly. So they're not laying on their parents' couches or waiting for months and months and months to get started with their supervision, but they can hit the ground running the minute that they graduate and go into, into supervision with somebody that is skilled and ready to roll.
Amy (06:33):
Right. Right. Yeah. It's, uh, as I was, uh, Amy and I were talking about before we started recording, I've had the same conversation with, uh, one of our, um, the, I guess she do does something similar that you do at your, at the university level from East Tennessee State University, Dr. Cassandra Pary. Um, and just the struggle they find have in helping students find supervisors after they graduate. And then Yeah. And too, the other thing too is just with the different niches and the, uh, different, you know, tracks that people can take, um, it could, some sometimes be difficult. I know for me, I'm an A A M F T approved supervisor, uh, and unfortunately in my state in Tennessee, there's very few of us that, with that, with that credential and so Right. They have to go to the A A M F T website and like, you know, the information there may or may not be correct. Right. All of that sort of thing.
Gordon (07:41):
And they have to know to do that. So. Absolutely. So we need you in the directory, Gordon, and, and here's the key. You don't even have to be looking for supervision seekers. You don't even have to be looking for supervisees mm-hmm. , um, to be in the directory. So it, it, there is a cost, there's a fee to be in the directory. And that the purpose of that is to really, to pay our staff, this isn't a money making endeavor for me mm-hmm. , I need to pay back my mortgage. But, you know, and my fees, um, for my staff and for the, for the marketing that we do. The goal, however, though, is you don't have to be looking for supervisees to, to have a listing mm-hmm. . Um, although one supervisee that you have on your team, um, certainly it grows your, it can grow your business mm-hmm. ,
(08:28):
Um, and one supervisee that pays you for supervision or works in on your team, even if you don't, they don't pay. You can pay back your listing. But the goal is even if you're not looking for someone, you have expertise in getting licensed and credentialing that the average person or even a clinician that you know, isn't up to date on the regulations, doesn't necessarily have, because you are keeping up with that information mm-hmm. . And that is so critical for someone to be able to even take 15 minutes of your time to ask you a couple questions and say, you know, what is the regulation on this? Who can I speak to? Because you know who's out there. You probably know five people who are taking supervisees. I certainly know I do. I can name five people right now who I know are actively taking supervisees, and I know five people right now who are looking to hire mm-hmm. . So if someone called me, I don't want any supervisees right now mm-hmm. , if someone called me right now and said, Dr. Parks, do you know anyone who's taking supervisees and or who is hiring? I'd be like, absolutely. Yeah.
(09:36):
Yeah. And so what a, what an amazing opportunity for us to help people get connected. I need that East state, Tennessee state University person's name because I could get every single one of those people a job uhhuh. And every one of those employers, uh, need to be connected with us as well.
Amy (09:54):
Right, right. Yeah. And I think that's a, you know, one of the things that, um, you know, I think there's, there's a lot of things, and we can go a lot of directions with this one. Something you, um, you mentioned is just the fact that our licensure portability problem is, is just a terrible problem. Yes. Course within the United States. I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous that we have so many different rules and, and all of that sort of thing. And, um, you know, and then the other problem not to get on my soapbox is just, uh, state boards that are just broken. I mean, just Yeah. I mean's,
Gordon (10:35):
Well, and that's a big challenge. I mean, in counseling a, you know, mft, you know, A A M F T is a bit less complex. Um, N A S W is a bit less complex, but ACA and the board of counseling is extraordinarily complex. Mm-hmm. , there are 22, 22 out of the 50 plus DC 51 technically states, there are 22 different initials acronyms for counselors in the us 22. Wow. Out of the 51 states mm-hmm. . Now, how is the, how is the community supposed to understand that? Not, not to mention the po, the people that are coming into the field that is so complicated mm-hmm. . Um, and so, I mean, license reportability is just, is, is, is a really massive problem. Mm-hmm. and, and then not to mention how frequently, I can't tell you, probably on a daily basis, someone will, will reach out to us and say, how do I become a supervisor in this state?
(11:35):
How do I become a supervisor in this state? And our, on our site, we try to connect you with the information on how to do that, but it's, it varies per state. Some states in the country just require you to show up and say, I wanna be a supervisor. Some states, like Illinois for example, everyone can be a supervisor after the first year of licensure as a clinician. Everyone is credentialed as a supervisor, everyone. Wow. Um, and then in, in Virginia, for example, you have to take 20 CE hours to become a supervisor. But not everyone has to do that, or not everyone does that. So it's extraordinarily variable. Yeah. Yeah. So why is that? Yeah. Why is that? Like, that doesn't make sense either, so.
Amy (12:20):
Right, right. Yeah. And it's, it's, yeah. It's, uh, and then, then too, I think with, uh, different, um, depending on the area of the country you're in, you've got different concentrations of the different licensure and so then you've gotta match somebody with
Gordon (12:38):
Absolutely. Especially with the lmf. Yes. Mm-hmm. . Yes. Yes. Definitely. Cause there's so many L MFTs in, in California in New York mm-hmm. huge po, huge pockets of those. And then not in other parts of the country.
Amy (12:50):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that's, that's cool. So tell tell folks, you know, um, how they can maybe get in your directory and Yeah. All of that sort of thing.
Gordon (13:01):
Yeah. So it's super easy. What we've done is, and we have some exciting, some really exciting partnerships that we're, my team the other day said, um, it is exciting for me to say I have a team. But anyway, the team the other day said, is this the calm before the storm? And I said, yeah, totally . So we have some massive partnerships that are gonna launch in January, which are gonna just, um, make it the, the place, um, to be. But, um, it's really easy. It's, it's, it's clinical supervision directory.com. Um, and basically when you go on, it just kind of divides you into two segments. Either you're seeking supervision, so you're a supervision seeker, so you're free and you're looking for supervision and it takes you into that path. Mm-hmm. , or you are a supervisor and it takes you down that path. And, um, and it just kind of divides you out into those two segments.
(13:51):
The other area that we have, um, sort of started to develop as well though, is an interesting one for people like us, Gordon mm-hmm. , kind of the OGs in the world who are, maybe not, now you and I are both supervisors, but we know a lot of people that are colleagues of ours, Gordon, that are not supervisors, but are really skilled in our field. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , they're experts in our field. Yes, yes. But they're not credentialed as supervisors, so they couldn't sign off on someone's licensure, but they are, they are absolutely top in their field. So we have also started to sort of look to having an area of our, of our, um, of our site called experts. So experts in the field because we found that a lot of people were reaching out to us and saying, I don't actually need supervision in this, but I do need supervision clinically mm-hmm.
(14:50):
In this mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , I need clinical supervision in this particular area. Substance use or LGBTQ issues or maternal health, that comes out up a lot. Or, um, gender identity. So what we are, are also looking for are people that want to position themselves as experts in certain areas mm-hmm. , um, because there are people that are licensed mm-hmm. that are looking for case consultation and or clinical supervision in that area. And what we'll be developing in 2023 are a number of different case consultation group models where those people will hold sort of like a monthly case consultation. If you're a member of our, if you're a member of our, of our site, you'll be offered the opportunity for free to be a part of their case consultation groups where you can come and bring a case, because there isn't anything like that. Right. We don't have clinical supervision mm-hmm. for in these areas of expertise, unless you happen to be in a practice where you were lucky enough mm-hmm. to have that expert that happens to work there. Right. So, you know, this is another opportunity. I mean, we will vet those people of course, and make sure that they are who they say they are and their licenses are accurate mm-hmm. and stuff like that. We will do that due diligence. But, um,
Amy (16:11):
Yeah. Yeah. I know. You know, another thing I was thinking about too, just to, in the, in the same vein as this, is that, um, if somebody were getting some sort of specific certification like EMDR or Right. Uh, certified, um, sex addiction therapist, that kind of thing, that there's a need there for finding supervisors to supervise you for your solidification.
Gordon (16:35):
Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. , so emdr, you can have any, so we do, we do have supervisors that provide EMDR and R P T, so those are, can be anywhere in the country, those people mm-hmm. . So when, when you are a supervisor in those areas. So how it works is, um, when you put in, for example, say you put in, um, that you want a supervisor, um, for L M F T, so say you want L mft, um, you will get all the people in L MFT throughout the whole country. Um, and so the states will come up, so say you put in just Tennessee l mft, you'll just get Gordon Brewer and you know, a hundred other people. Um, but if you put in R P T, or if you put in registered play therapist, um, say you put in, um, uh, if you put in, you'll, you'll get everybody because mm-hmm. , everyone throughout the whole country mm-hmm. , um, can do anyone else throughout the whole country. They, they're, they're EMDR and R P T have covered the whole country. They're the only ones that have figured out how to credential everyone across the country the same way. Right.
Amy (17:39):
Right.
Gordon (17:39):
So we need to use them as the mom.
Amy (17:41):
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree.
Gordon (17:45):
But you know, it's partly because no one, everyone just likes their fiefdoms, uhhuh. I mean, it just doesn't make sense why, why that has become necessary. I don't know mm-hmm. . Yeah. But there's no one that's going to be able to agree on a model.
Amy (17:57):
Right,
Gordon (17:58):
Right. Everyone just wants their fiefdoms and, you know, it's unfortunately the consumer, and of course us, you know, as the practitioners, but the consumer is the one that ultimately suffers because, you know, it makes it that much more complicated for, for the practitioner to be able to function.
Amy (18:15):
Right. Right, right. Yeah. And the the other thing too is just with the, with the shortage, with the shortage we have of mental health providers, anything we can do to kinda make the path easier. Absolutely. I mean, you know, you finding that balance between clinical integrity and being able to do sound efficacious work, we've gotta maintain that, but we don't have to make it overly complicated to, for people to learn stuff.
Gordon (18:44):
Well, and what we, what, here's the interesting thing. So I had a conversation with aca, um, the American Counselors Association, um, in people about, I don't know, maybe eight months ago. And they had said to me, you know, why is supervision, I mean, they didn't really say it like this, but they kind of implied like, why is supervision, you know, so important? And, um, and, and they weren't saying it wasn't, they were just asking for my response. And I said, mm-hmm. , I said, the thing that keep, that should be keeping ACA up at night, the thing that should be keeping NA s w up at night, the thing that should be keeping omca up at night is how to get clinicians on the ground that are expertly trained quickly. Mm-hmm. , period. That's the only thing you should be thinking about. The only thing mm-hmm. , because you're a not for profit organization. Your only goal is to get people expertly trained on the ground quickly, period. That's it. That's the only thing you should be doing. Right. And I said, and at the end of the day, the only way to do that is through university instruction and supervision. Mm-hmm. period. So that should be the only things you should be focusing on. Yes. And yet those are the two things you spend the least amount of time on. Yeah.
(20:05):
and I, it's just so fascinating to me to watch that happen as a, you know, as an og mm-hmm. member of the profession.
Amy (20:14):
Yes.
Gordon (20:14):
Yes. So, I don't know. Yeah, I don't, that's just my, obviously my personal opinion. I don't think you like that answer, but
Amy (20:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I, I think in general, and this is just, again, I'm gonna, not to get on a soapbox, but I think one of the things that, um, a lot of our professional organizations have done is, is they have kind of, I, I don't wanna go out on a limb and say they're irrelevant, but they've made, what they did in the past is maybe not as relevant as it is today. I mean, it's, um, and what I mean by that is, is that there was a bit of, you know, joining an association, there was something about a little bit of a prestige, that kind of thing. And I don't know that that pit that is so much important to people as much as it is just knowing that they're gonna help them in their career. And so mm-hmm. , yeah. Mm-hmm. . So anyway, um, not to get too far off on a tangent, I know having served on the, previously in the past in the Tennessee Marriage and Family Therapy Association, um, they really had their tan hands tied by the, by the national organization and the way it was structured. And so the structure of things, you know, is something we've gotta look at and really kinda rework.
Gordon (21:38):
Yeah. And I, it's hard to say, you know, what's gonna happen going forward and how, you know, I mean, I do feel like there are lots of opportunities for support through those organizations. Mm-hmm. , you know, I, I a hundred percent support people being members. I am a member of all of them. Um, and mm-hmm. , you know, we as, as a, as a clinical supervision directory, support them a thousand percent and want to see them do better Yes. Um, to raise the bar on supervision. And so, um, you know, that's, that's a major thing. And, and it's, it's so funny though. I'll have to tell you, Gordon, you're gonna laugh when you hear this. I, I, when I started this supervision directory, I said to my accountant, I said two things to people, to my, my close confidants. I said one thing. I said, I does this have to be a real business?
(22:24):
Like, is this a real thing? Like does it need to have like it's own, own, you know, like LLC and everything? And she said, um, yes it does. It needs to have mm-hmm. now we have a trademark and we have like , it's like a real thing. And then I also said to another friend of mine, I said, I really just don't wanna be like supervision girl. Like, I don't want that to be my identity. I have absolutely surpassed both things. It is truly a full-fledged business of its very own. And I am officially like supervision girl. Okay. So, you know, I don't know how that, it all happens, that's
Amy (23:00):
An accidental niche,
Gordon (23:02):
. It's, it's become a thing. And, um, but I really, I really do think that, um, you know, we, I I want to lead more conversations around this, this area, and it, and it's, and again, it's not even just as you mentioned before, not just people going into licensure, but interns mm-hmm. , um, and, and raising people up through the university, uh, system of, of internship and moving into residency and really helping people, you know, get through that process. Um, yeah. And, and on the, on the ground.
Amy (23:32):
Well, I, you know, one of the things that I've learned, um, you know, again, but talking about the, the kind of, the shortage of, of licensed clinicians is what seems to be be a better option for me as a group practice owner is that when I need more staff, I've maxed out right now, but when I need more staff, it is much more appealing to me to raise somebody up. Absolutely. I do the, do the supervision and, and kind of, you know, bring, bring them on board that way, rather than trying to scour and find license people with experience, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a much, much more win-win kind of thing.
Gordon (24:17):
Absolutely. And yet, at the same time, part of what we need to be working on, being able to do too, is helping us as supervisors know how to, um, help those residents learn to stay, you know, stay too mm-hmm. , I mean, I want my residents to stay also. Yes.
Amy (24:35):
Yes. Making it, yeah. Making it a, yeah. Making it a, a true career out of it and being able to Yeah. And stay
Gordon (24:42):
In the field. Yeah.
Amy (24:44):
Yes. Absolutely. Well, Amy, I know we've gotta, I, I've gotta be respectful of your time, and I'm, uh, so glad we reconnected.
Gordon (24:52):
Absolutely.
Amy (24:52):
Uh, yes. So any parting thoughts? And also tell folks how they can get in touch with you and, and get started.
Gordon (24:59):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, they can find us at the, at the, it's called clinical supervision directory.com. It's www clinical supervision directory.com. They can find us on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn. Um, they can find us at hello@thehyphencsd.com. And, um, I'm all over, you know, kind of all over the place. Mm-hmm. certainly can reach out to us in any of those locations. And I guess, you know, my, my parting words are we need to get you in the directory, Gordon. Okay. And, and your practice as well. And, you know, I, I guess really, you know, my key message is that, um, you know, my goal is for this to be the one stop shop. This is really, uh, my legacy to the profession. Mm-hmm. , and, um, you know, that's, that's, that's really it. This is, this is my legacy to the profession, so I'm hoping that it, it becomes that.
Amy (25:52):
Oh, awesome. Awesome. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show ceremonies and all that kinda stuff. Thanks Gordon. Well, Amy, it's great to re reconnect and I'm, I'm sure we'll have you back here soon.
Gordon (26:03):
Absolutely. Thank you. And hugs to your wife as well. Okay. Thanks. All right. Thanks Gordon.