The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer:
Well, hello everyone. And welcome again to the practice of therapy podcasts. And I'm so happy for you to get to know today Faith Dulin. Welcome to the podcast.
Faith Dulin:
Thank you, Gordon. I appreciate you having me today.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes, I'm so it's so great to get to know you and you know, talk about what we're going to be delving in today, because I think it's an important topic. And I think one that most people would be interested in and, and that is number one, working with difficult clients, which, Oh, I've never had any, but I'm just kidding. So yeah, that and boundaries. So, yeah, so as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about your private practice journey and where you're from and how you've kind of landed where you landed?
Faith Dulin:
All right. Well, it's kind of a long story, so I will try to give you the highlight real version without taking up too much time. I grew up a military kid, so moved around everywhere and not really from anywhere specific. I took my first course in psychology at the beginning of college and loved it so much which is a common story that I've since learned. But I changed my major and I was like, this is what I want to do. And so I worked full time in corporate America while taking classes at night. So my college career took 15 years, but I finally graduated. And I'm truly living my dream now doing this work being a therapist and my private practice is in Charlotte, North Carolina, where I live. And so I'm really happy that I finally made my, my goal.
Gordon Brewer:
Yes, that is great. That's great. So, yeah, so I want to, one of the things maybe maybe a place to start is, is that you're really Raleigh passionate about boundaries and then also working with difficult clients. So tell folks more, a little bit about kinda your passion and, and kind of some ideas that you have around those things.
Faith Dulin:
Okay. Yeah. So I'm working on a book right now, writing a book called boundaries and balance. And when I was in my early twenties, I stumbled upon the boundaries book by cloud and Townsend. Have you heard of it, Gordon? Yeah. and it really revolutionized some beliefs that I had around in our personal engagement and how I could have boundaries for myself, but not be a mean person. You know, I've been a recovering people pleaser for a long time.
Faith Dulin:
Exactly. Yeah. So that gave me a whole new perspective and I really liked the concept and have tried to integrate the ideas into my life since then. I've noticed that comes up a lot with the clients that I work with. And I have referred several clients to that book to check it out and sort of learn more about the concept. It does come from a pretty heavy faith-based perspective. And so that's not consistently been a good fit for all of the clients that I've worked with and as far as reading it. So what I'm sort of working on is putting together a book around the concept of boundaries that doesn't have a religious foundation with its perspective and just give some practical and applicable tools on how to set boundaries. And I feel like a jerk, so,
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. Yeah. So what, what are you in thinking about just us as therapists, where do you see that we struggle the most with boundaries
Faith Dulin:
As therapists? Well, let's see, I've heard other clinicians struggle with the relationships they have with their clients. They're heavily invested in their client's lives and their success, obviously. And so there are your typical things that come up like social media interaction, or if clients should contact you over the weekends there are some deeper issues like handling money, things that come up, you know my client owes you money. And if you're a solopreneur as I am, you handle the client relationship and the money and business relationship as well. So having boundaries around that for me, I will totally admit and, and throw it out there that I continue to work really hard on my own boundaries. My personal therapist actually called me out recently, and I was whining about working too much. You know, I'm not sure about you Gordon, but COVID has done a doozy on folks. So I've got a huge influx of clients, just gray. You know, I'm not complaining about that at all, but just, I tend to try to be very accommodating. So I'm going in early and working late and being back to our clients, not really taking a break. So I was complaining about that and my therapy session. And she made a comment about, sounds like you could use better boundaries. I was like, yeah,
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, I think that's it. You know, and I think part of the, part of the thing you talk about being people pleasers, but I think just for most of us as therapists, we're just kind of, as I like to say, just have a real caring heart and we like to be accommodating and, and that sort of thing, but it's, it can take its toll on it on us. And I know that's one thing that I have I can maybe say I'm a little bit proud of is I've got my schedule in a stick to it. And you know, these are the, these are appointments slots that I have available and that, you know, if it's, if I have a request for seeing somebody outside of those, I just very politely and kindly say, no, I can't do that because of my own family obligations and that sort of thing.
Gordon Brewer:
And we can look at finding you another slot or something like that. So you know, of course emergencies are going to come up and you gotta be flexible around those things. But I think that's, I think when it comes to scheduling clients, you, you create, create that boundary from your, for yourself on the front end. And, and then have those conversations with, with clients, you know, when you do an intake and say, you know, these are, you know, I know you you're like all of us, but these are the, these are the slots I have available when you know, which one would you like?
Faith Dulin:
Absolutely. Gordon. You're absolutely right. And that's something that I, I was doing a better job of. Right. So I think for my personal journey with growth and boundaries is that I thought, okay, I'm doing great on this, you know, check the box, I have good boundaries. And I gradually tend to fall away from that. And so you're absolutely right. You know, having your schedule, sticking to it. And I liked what you said too, because I'm trying to look at boundaries and balance, you know, I think there are emergencies, like you said, there are times when we'll need to bend or be flexible a little bit to accommodate a situation that calls for it. But when you turn that into a habit, as I tend to do and neglect my personal responsibilities and, and things like that, but it's an issue, you know, and you're absolutely right. So I'm still working on it,
Gordon Brewer:
Which is really just kind of a good segue. You know, just thinking about with difficult clients, because we had a situation this past week here in my office where I had a client that had called and wanted to schedule with me and was really kind of kind of gave my admin person a hard time because of my schedule and that, you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, just thinking about working with difficult clients and so no surprise, this particular particular client was coming for anger management kinds of issues, but yeah, just thinking about thinking about that, what what I know you've got a lot of thought and things to say about working with difficult clients.
Faith Dulin:
Well, thank you. Yeah, for that question. This is an area that I'm still learning and growing in as well. But I think I sort of picked up a message in college and graduate school about therapy that we are supposed to be always sort of passive and gentle. And non-confrontational and I know that everyone has different styles and approaches that are the best fit for them and their clients. And as far as my development, as a clinician, I have found that being direct and being confrontational addressing and labeling poor behaviors, abusive behaviors has been effective. It's not always warmly received. But then those are not the people for me to work with.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Yeah. And I think it's on, you know, I think one of the things too is being able to therapeutically call people out on things is is something that's, that's an important thing. Yeah. And I think too, as, and I tell clients this all the time, as well as that you've got to find a therapist that's a good fit for you. And if I'm not that person, I'm not going to take it personally, but let's have that conversation just around what is a good fit for you and what, what sort of therapists do you think would what you would both benefit from?
Faith Dulin:
Absolutely, absolutely good boundaries there. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. Yeah. So what are, can you maybe give us some examples of some difficult clients that you've worked with that you feel like you've had good success with in terms of setting boundaries and, and being able to help them through their issues?
Faith Dulin:
Yeah. I have really enjoyed particularly working with I've heard other clinicians describe them as difficult men, and I don't mean to pick on men at all because there are certainly difficult women. But I tend to get a lot of the guys I'm not sure if it's military background or my personal style and approach, but I tend to get a lot of men that come in to see me that sort of hate therapy. You know, they think it's a bunch of BS. The couples that come in their wife or their partner has made them and they really like it when I tell it to them straight. They may not like to hear what I'm saying. But I think building the rapport upfront and building trust can be helpful. I've worked with the County where I live and have been working with police and first responders. And I feel like a lot of times they will come in and sort of test you, you know, to see if you are going to rattled by what they talk about their trauma, their, the things they've seen their experiences. And so when you can hold a safe space for them and build that rapport and trust, I think it's instrumental. And the rapport that you have is a lot more able to withstand confrontation and challenging.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. Yeah. I thought I could couldn't agree more. And I think one of the things that can happen and I talk with people that are supervise about this as well, is that one of the things that can quickly happen in therapy is we can quickly kind of create what I refer to as a false mutual pretense. You know, it's kind of this polite back and forth, and it's kinda like there's the tension that's in the room and never really addressed that. I mean, it's a, you know, I think for most of us, we pick up on the fact that somebody is being, as we like to call it resistant. In other words, they're, they're being kind of standoffish about giving information or you're having to pull it out of them. And I think a big part of it is they're really, like you said, just testing you out, just trying to see where the waters are.
Gordon Brewer:
And, and I couldn't agree with you more as I think being able to label that, that dynamic from the get go. And one of the things that I do nearly always with clients is when I do an intake is one of the first questions I ask them is what sort of experience have you had in therapy? You know, what is this you know, and I, and I also say, you know, just kind of as a standard line is, as I realized that coming and talking to a perfect stranger about personal stuff, isn't on anyone's top 10 list of things to do. So I, I admire you for being here. And yeah. And so just being able to kind of label that on the front end, as I call it, let's talk about the elephant in the room. I think goes a long way and just being able to help people let their guard down and that sort of thing. And, you know, I probably learned some of that back when I was working with, with more teams who can be really resistant and although I'm not great at working with teams, but I, you know, I have done it and just tell them how crazy it would be for them just to come in and just spill their spill, their guts to a total stranger. It just wouldn't make much sense at all. So, you know,
Faith Dulin:
Absolutely. I do the same thing. That's my first question is sort of what past experiences do you have with therapy and I love how you described normalizing kind of how bizarre it can feel and general social terms to say, hi, my name is here's my deepest, darkest thoughts and fears. Right,
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Yeah. And so I think that just goes a long way with, with, you know, helping kind of build that rapport from the very beginning and you know I think yeah, the thing too, and tell me maybe a little bit about this, you know, because we were talking about boundaries, but I think a bit of self-disclosure is helpful as well. And I'd be curious to know your thoughts about that.
Faith Dulin:
I do. I do think so. I think that can be a very touchy topic that intersects with boundaries. I think there are strong feelings from clinicians and certain fields with good reason about self-disclosure. I try to generally think if I feel it will be helpful to their process then I will share, I probably share more than most not to make the conversation about me at all, but I've noticed that it can be disarming when someone feels defensive or misunderstood. And I've also appreciated from my perspective that I think it helps build that rapport. I don't come from a perspective of I'm the expert and I'm teaching you and you need to listen to me. I try to think of the client and I is more of equals and are on this journey together. And I'm trying to figure it out just like they are in some of my experiences in some of my training, my really helped them. So I tend to lean a little bit more into vulnerability than I've heard some other folks. What are your thoughts on that?
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, same say for me. And I think you know, I think it, it goes a long way with it really just kind of building credibility with clients, to be able to talk about some of my own struggles that I've gone through and to be able to share those things. I know my friend Jeff got there who is you know, at therapy, Dan he's been on several episodes in the past. That's one of the things that he's he hears from from clients. He has a podcast. And hopefully Jeff, I'm giving the name of your podcast correctly here. I think it's called tell me more. And it's just interviews that he has with clients about coming to therapy. Nice podcast. So it's a really cool thing. And I think one of the things that he hears as a theme is that people feel better about a therapist that does a bit of self-disclosure about their own struggles and just being about, you know, talking about how they've handled it in their own life. And so I think that's, I think that is, and I think that's, again, what helps with, you know, dealing with difficult clients you know, I think if he can, you know, the ones that you have to spend, there are some clients, I think you just have to spend more, more time on that. And as I like to refer to it as the, that engagement and alignment with therapy and so that they're bought into the therapeutic process.
Faith Dulin:
Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. And you mentioned, you mentioned working with law enforcement and, and also it sounded like you work a good bit with some veterans and that sort of thing as well. And I think that's a real important piece because those are particularly the kind of trauma that a lot of those folks go through. My brother, my brother-in-law, it was in law enforcement and he and I have had that conversation is there's a kind of like there's a comradery there that really people in the military people or laws forcement really kind of it's it's kind of a sacred space for a lot of them being able to have that. So, yeah,
Faith Dulin:
Absolutely. And it can feel inclusive sometimes and maybe exclusive to sort of outsiders that civilians. Right. And a lot of them are afraid to seek help. I talked to one gentleman and he said, you know, the police force, the local police force is trying to do more with supporting mental health. So they gave us a, a person on staff that we can go and talk to if we need to. And he said, you walk into the head quarters and there's all these glass offices and his office is right there. No one is going to go into that guy's office. You know, they don't want to be seen by their, you know, fellow comrades going in there. And someone's going to say, what's going on? You cracking out, man, you know, for it to be looked at as a falling down on the job, you know, not being competent. So it makes a lot of sense what you said. Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Yeah. So, so I know you shared with me that you're working on a book. And so tell me a little bit, tell folks a little bit more about that and just the stuff you're putting together.
Faith Dulin:
Thank you, Gordon. Yeah. boundaries has been discussed a lot before there's the classic cloud and Townsend book about boundaries. Are you familiar with it? Yes. and so I'm trying to write a book that has a applicable practical strategies for implementing boundaries and not feeling guilty about it. And it's a bit different from the cloud and Townsend booked in book in that it doesn't have the faith-based perspective alongside the materials. So I'm kind of excited to be able to have that as a resource to refer to folks that may find that approach to be a little bit better fit, like, like we've talked about, about, you know, different things fit better for different folks. So I want them to have this option as well.
Gordon Brewer:
And is that, is the book you really geared more towards, I guess, just everyday folks rather than therapists. Is that really kind of your attempt with that? Yeah, that's great. Yeah. The one thing about that, I think doing those kinds of things, which I think is really important for, for therapists, particularly like you, that are solo entrepreneurs kind of thing is, is finding ways to create diversify your income, other streams of income besides just doing, doing therapy. So I think that's a brilliant, brilliant idea.
Faith Dulin:
Thank you. Thank you, Gordon. Have you written a book yourself or,
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, just a really you know, the private practice startup guide is one and, you know, I've got a few others and the pike that I've got to I've just got to finish up. Like, I've got one on the money, a book about the financial side of private practice and those kinds of things. So those are things that I'm, you know, it's just a matter of making the time to finish those things up and bring them to completion. Yeah. I've got, I I'm the world's worst at having a lot of UN started projects that are just aren't finished yet. So,
Faith Dulin:
Well, I was just going to say, I really admire you though, because you created this space. It sounds like you're still in the office working with clients and you've created this really cool space.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks. Yes. So, well, faith, I want to be respectful of your time. Tell folks a little more about how they can get in touch with you if they have questions or learn more about you and your practice
Faith Dulin:
Or so they can always visit my website@harmonypsychotherapy.com. I also have a Facebook page where I share resources and whatnot faith, Doolin, harmonies, psychotherapy and then I'm also on Instagram as marriage therapist.
Gordon Brewer:
Okay, awesome. That's a great Instagram handle. You're lucky to get that right.
Faith Dulin:
That's so funny because a colleague of mine had recommended that I also have a presence on Instagram and I was very resistant to it. I'm like I'm old. I don't want to learn another social media platform. So I admire you Gordon because your Instagram looks perfect.
Gordon Brewer:
Well, I T well, I wish I could take credit for that, but actually here's the secret, my virtual assistant, Rachel does all of that for me, right. Yet that the value of outsourcing. So, yeah. So,
Faith Dulin:
So I was trying to figure it out and I said, well, let me, you know, think of like a name or a handle or whatever. I don't even know what it's called. And so I typed that in and it was strangely available and I was like, well, you know, I kind of had second thoughts about it. Like, who am I to say, this is what I am. I mean, I am,
Gordon Brewer:
But like,
Faith Dulin:
Let's try it. And then I went to a networking meeting and told some colleagues and they were like, Oh, you just chose that name. Right.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. Right, right. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, well, faith, thanks again for being on the podcast. And we'll have links in the show notes and show summary to focusing, get in touch with, with her and with you and that, that sort of thing. So thanks again
Faith Dulin:
So much for having me Gordon. Thank you. You're welcome.