The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, folks, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm really excited for you all to hear from two of my newest friends I and I've gotten familiar with Melissa and Karen through our, our newly formed network, the site craft network. And they have, I will say this, they have truly made our network an international network. So Karen and Melissa, welcome. tell folks a little bit about yourself as a start with everyone. If you don't mind, tell us. I know that with two people here, we'll take a just take our time with this. But tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed about your, your practices.

Karen Dyck
Melissa and I actually met when she was doing her residency in Manitoba with her supervisor. And we kept in touch over the years. And I guess a few years ago, in a discussion she and I were having about psychology and different ways to use our degrees, we realized that we both really had an interest in self care, and both appreciated some of the challenges that exist for mental health clinicians with regards to self care, and also in particular for female clinicians. And based on that conversation, Melissa and I, over a period of time developed intentional therapist, which offers a series of resources aimed at helping female mental health clinicians think about self care a little differently and help them integrate it into their workday. Hmm, yeah.

Gordon Brewer
So yeah, so Melissa, what about for you?

Melissa Teissen
Yeah, I think Karen summarized, kind of where this has come from really well. But I suppose just to add, as, as Karen mentioned, she and I go, surprisingly, way back at this point. And, and really just, again, appreciate how important self care is to the work that we do. Whether a female or male mental health clinicians, right, the work that we do, I think, especially throughout the pandemic has been so clearly highlighted as as valuable. And at the same time, there's been so many struggles that many people have faced in the past couple of years. And so whether we realize it or not, we were really stepping into, I think, an area that is just so important, and I think really the time has come for, for there to be a wider discussion about how we take care of ourselves as mental health clinicians, so that we can continue to be available for all of the people who are seeking our services in particular these days with all of the challenges people have been facing.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. And I know that as we were chatting before we started recording, I know that, you know, we as therapists, we we know, Canada stuff. And I think one of our maybe our flaws a little bit is that a lot of times we have difficulty applying that in our own for ourselves and in our own practices. But I know one of the things that you all had mentioned, is it just kind of a rethinking of how we do self care and what that looks like. So you all want to say more about that.

Karen Dyck
Yeah, so I think for mental health clinicians, you know, whether it you're male or female, I think the initial step that we need to take in order to really appreciate the importance of self care and how to think about it differently, is to really start thinking about really the impact and the influences and why self care is actually more can be more challenging for mental health clinicians. You know, certainly the, the framework we have developed comes from an acknowledgement that there's particular hazards that come with our work. There's a student mindset that perhaps never leaves us, right, and some of the some of the qualities that probably helped us get our training and our degrees. You know, like this, being overly conscientious and driven and making sacrifices in order to succeed academically, some of those things never really leave us unless we're quite intentional. And when we continue to carry those into our work setting, it can create some real challenges for us. And I think going along with that as some of the messages we just get through our training. You know, self care has talked about but often just about avoiding burnout, and we think there's there's much it's much more important to really help clinicians Let's think about what they can do during their workday to actually thrive and not just to avoid burnout. So there's, you know, some unique hazards, there's that student mindset. And we also believe that there's some some gender specific messages that influence female mental health clinicians that are important to really be aware of and address in any kind of self care model.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, so yeah, so I'm curious as to your thoughts on just kind of the gender specific kinds of things that you guys are, are noticing and figuring out as far as your work with other therapists around this whole self care thing.

Melissa Teissen
And Gordon, we'd love to hear your your take on maybe some of the the male specific messages, they probably create challenges as well, because I know we've discussed some of this a little bit with some male colleagues. And but from the female perspective, definitely one of the, the big challenges for many women is just how women are socialized in general. So some, some listeners might be familiar with a book that came out a couple of years ago called burnout, by actually two sisters, Amelia and Emily Nagasaki, and they really talk about this idea of what they call the human giver syndrome. And essentially, this is this is how many women are socialized right to to be people pleasers, to give to others to put others needs first, even just to an expectation to be pretty to be presentable. Right. And, excuse me, what, what happens then is that you just grow up receiving these messages, and maybe not even intentionally, but they're just sort of, in the air in some ways. And, and then we bring these messages of needing to put other people's needs before our own into a profession that essentially is about other people's needs, right? And so then you have women struggling with, right? How do I how do I reconcile my clients of all these needs, but I also have these needs? Well, you know, what many people do is they don't reconcile that they just put the client's needs first. Because even considering putting their own needs, at the same level as the client's needs, brings up all of these feelings of guilt, or shame or just discomfort, because it's really going against what what they've been socialized to believe, is the role of a woman. And, and even even if somebody isn't, you know, fully on board with these more traditional stereotypical notions of what being a woman looks like, there's, there's still going to be people around us who are believing those things. And so that can that can create challenges as well, because then maybe we look at other people. And we think, Well, you know, is there something wrong with me that I'm not, you know, putting my client's needs before my own or other colleagues, we might be concerned that our colleagues are judging us if we're doing things differently. So all kinds of different challenges can arise, whether in fact, whether we believe these notions, or or don't believe these notions, but because others around us have been socialized in this way that that can also create challenges, as well. So, so that's definitely one of the pieces, at least in terms of the how women are socialized, that can really create this extra element of difficulty for female mental health clinicians in particular.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. And I think I know, in just my work with clients, and particularly women, I think that that, that you're right, those internal messages that are probably not really something that they've really thought about, or just it's just there, and being able to, in many ways give themselves permission to kind of challenge some of those thoughts a little bit. You know, it's interesting, your question, and I was thinking about this, as you were, were talking, Melissa was, you know, the, the man's perspective on this, and when I do a lot of work with couples, and one of one of the things that I think we man as I, as I like to say, not to, yeah, we tend to be want to be fixers, and there are a lot of times, maybe that it, it gets projected in our relationships and our partners and all of that sort of thing. That particularly, I think, again, is this, see if I can put this into words so that it's make make sense? I think one of the conflicts that happens in relationships, particularly between men and women, is that and I'm not to sound sexist in any way, but just painting with a broad brush is that men expect women to fix things. And to do it, and so I think there might be some buy in to that because of man's, I think most men tend to think of problems as Okay, here's a problem in front of me, let's fix it, and then move on to the next thing. And and I think what's missing from that is just maybe a bit of the emotional understanding of what that's like, internally, because I think, you know, again, not to paint with too broad of a brush men tended to be less focused on the kind of the emotional impact of things. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that as well. Yeah.

Karen Dyck
Well, well, it's interesting. You know, I actually, if it's okay, Gordon, I'll talk a little bit about it, where I think some, some commonalities exist. And it's actually something we were just talking about before we started recording this right, that, I think, you know, folks who are drawn into this profession, are often drawn into it for a number of reasons, right, they may have had some experiences growing up where mental health became an interest for a variety of reasons. And likely, at some point, they were reinforced for their caregiving role. And right, so people go into this, this career, and I think this that would be probably equally applicable for men. But I'm, you know, just hypothesizing about that. And so I think where that where the commonalities can come in, for men and women in this profession, is that obviously we we value, many of us most of us value, that caregiving role and being helpful to others. And where it can create a lot of challenges that in addition to just the normal work pressures, is when outside in our personal lives, whether this be for a male or female, where our personal circumstances are also pulling for some of those right to fall into that caregiver role. And so I think that's where maybe we've seen some similarities when we spoken to other other men who are in the mental health field and our therapists. So it's, you know, I think there's definitely are some similarities and things that I think men and women in this field can really relate to, and probably are also having some of the same emotional experiences in relation to these pressures.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, I know, a one of the things that I have to check myself on quite a bit is that I'm an Enneagram, to the helper. And so I might, one of the things I have to pull myself back on and remind myself of, and this, if you're familiar with the Enneagram, this is one of the, one of the Deadly Sins of an Enneagram to and that is that we think we know what's best for everybody else. And so we want to go in there and fix that until, you know, and rescue people and all of that sort of thing. And so, yet that that self awareness is, is really important, I think, in all of this.

Karen Dyck
Yeah, it's such an excellent point, Gordon, actually, you know, Melissa and I have developed this, this kind of four pillar approach to self care. And, and the first pillar we talked about is connection. And we see that in a very broad sense, but part of the connection pillar is connecting with ourselves, and really understanding right our, our values or vulnerabilities, our strength, and how that's just such a key component, as we look forward to putting self care practices into place. That makes sense for us personally.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah. Yeah. So let's change gears just a little bit. Why don't you all tell us more about kind of this four pillar system that you've kind of come up with this, this notion and and tell us about that?

Melissa Teissen
Yeah, so as Karen just mentioned, we call it the four C's model. And surprisingly enough, each of the words start with the letter C. Connection, is the first pillar. Compassion is the second. Third is courage. And last is creativity. And what we really love about this model is it really helps us as Karen was saying earlier, think more broadly about how we're attending to our self care, right, you'll notice, there was no mention of a massage, or a bubble bath, or anything like that in, in this model description. And it's really because and again, actually, I should say, not that we can't use bubble baths and massages and whatever else to take care of ourselves. But that of course, these things are insufficient on their own. And, and really one of the big reasons kind of going back to the connection and compassion pieces that we can we can talk more specifically about, but I just wanted to highlight two, I think, right? One of the reasons that our traditional or more commodified ideas of self care are insufficient, especially in our roles as helpers, is, is because I think there's also this, this, this thing that happens, and I think it's probably true for both male and female clinicians, in that we, of course, because we're human, we're going to struggle with self care at times, whether because we're being pulled by other caring responsibilities, or just because of our own personalities, but also, because we probably don't want anybody to know that we're struggling with our self care, right? Least of all our colleagues, right, we don't, we don't want to be seen as the incompetent one, right. So I think we also really tend to, to go through this in silence a lot of the time, not all of the time, thankfully. But a lot of the time, I think people do struggle without even telling close colleagues that there may be struggling with something. And and that's really a big thing that we're hoping to change as well, by really normalizing this and creating a framework that's broader than how we might traditionally think about self care. So and this really comes back to those connection and compassion pieces, right, just knowing that it's okay to struggle, and that probably, your colleagues who you think aren't struggling with their self care, probably are having some struggles with their self care. And so, so important to be having these conversations and and that's part of the the connection pillar, just connecting with other like minded clinicians, right, connecting, as Karen said earlier, with ourselves connecting with, what is it that draws drew us to this work in the first place, right, connecting with our values and connecting with new information? Right, like, how can we think about self care in different ways? How can we understand the impact of our gender socialization, whether as a male or a female identifying, so that we at least have that awareness of kind of where we're starting from, can make such an important difference? In the direction that our self care can take?

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes. Yeah, I'd say that's just bringing up a lot of things and a lot of thoughts for me just thinking about, you know, how do we, you know, one of the things that I think a lot of us in, you know, as therapists, one of the things that we do is we kind of get our clients to be vulnerable with us. And so being able to, then being able to do our own work of vulnerability of being able to share those things. And, you know, that's been, you know, one of the things that people on this podcast have heard a lot from me about is the importance of finding a network or community of people, that allows you to be vulnerable, that also that it's safe to be vulnerable with.

Karen Dyck
Yeah, I think that is such an important point. And, you know, is is certainly one of the things that Melissa and I are trying to create, through intentional therapist is to provide a safe place, whether that's in our online workshops, or in our course that we that we recently launched, is to bring like minded women together, where we can really talk about what makes this difficult and feel validated and supported in going against some of the limiting beliefs that we might have that interfere with us taking care of ourselves.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. So in your in doing this work, what what have you all noticed that are kind of common, I guess, common themes for a lot of women in being able to to do effective self care? I guess that's maybe a way of saying that.

Karen Dyck
Yeah, I guess I can, I guess I can start. One thing that's that's certainly come out in our conversations with the women that we've met. so far is that idea that how the Gender Socialization kind of fits in? And we've heard a number of women say, you know, I don't buy into those beliefs. But if you ask them, do your actions suggest that you buy into those beliefs? And people will often say, I guess it does, right. So intellectually, they don't believe that kind of their sole purpose is to take care of others, and that they should be sacrificing their own needs, or that other's needs always come before their own. But when they start really looking at how their day looks, and how their schedule looks and how they're spending their time, their actions are actually often quite in line with some of those messages that we've received that that aren't particularly helpful. So I know for me, that's, that's something that has certainly resonated for me and stood out.

Melissa Teissen
Yeah, no. Oh, God, no, no, go ahead, Melissa.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah,

Melissa Teissen
just to add, I think, another really key piece for, for many of us, probably really, male or female clinicians, but especially the the women that we've worked with, interestingly, compassion often tends to be a challenging piece, right. And, and like, you were just saying, you know, we ask our clients to be vulnerable with us all the time. But sometimes it is really challenging for us to connect with more vulnerable feelings within ourselves. And, again, because of having quite often right, high standards, need for achievement, maybe some perfectionistic tendencies, right? It's very easy to expect a lot out of ourselves and I and should honor ourselves when things aren't going exactly the way we would like them to right. And so I think many, many female clinicians in particular often do struggle with not not having compassion for their clients, but having compassion for themselves. And that's why compassion is the second pillar of our model, because it's very difficult to make any changes for yourself, without some compassion for just these real difficulties of what what the nature of mental health work is, without compassion for the reality that we're not always going to have successful outcomes with our clients, despite our best efforts, right? That there's a lot of things that are outside of our control. And so really, again, kind of, you'll notice all of the seas kind of interconnected with each other. Because then we really are, I should say, that having that compassion also then allows us to better connect with, why is it that we're doing this work to better be present with our clients? I just connect with with that new information, right, it all just circles back?

Gordon Brewer
Yeah. You know, again, as you were, as you were, both were talking about this, I think one of the struggles, I notice for my myself, and I don't know, again, if this is particularly male or female in the way of thinking about this, but you know, there's kind of this meta message that I think a lot of us deal with, of, we're being too selfish, or we're being too, whatever, by taking care of ourselves. In other words, it's that that meta message of okay, if I'm neglecting someone else, or on our on neglect, you know, if I'm neglecting someone else's needs, then that makes me selfish or a bad person in some way. And I think that's, that's a struggle, I think, for a lot of us is that, recognizing that we've got got to take care of ourselves in order to be able to help others in the way that we would like to help others. Absolutely. And

Karen Dyck
I think, you know, one thing Melissa and I have talked about as well is, you know, we really do need to think of ourselves as the our tools of our trade. And, you know, if you think of a surgeon, using tools that aren't sterilized and aren't, you know, they're they're rested, they're not well taken care of, that would never happen, because that is seen as a priority, right? You need to take care of your tools in order to provide good ethical service. And, you know, really, mental health clinicians. The same is equally true. And we just need to appreciate though that the tools that that we bring to work every day are ourselves and when we are taking care of ourselves both at work and out sight of work in ways that makes sense for us, we're going to be that much better clinicians, and we're really going to be the best version of ourselves no matter what role we're, we're in.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Yeah, it's the, it's, you know, one of the things, again, that I've, and I'm sure all of us that are in this field have experienced is where we are distracted by things outside that therapy room, whether it's stuff going on in our own lives, or, you know, just things that are were trying to attend to Mandalay and then via by be something is as simple as, okay, I didn't sleep well, the night before or something like that. And where self care would take care of that. It does make us much better clinicians, when we can give our full attention within the therapy session, because we have taken care of our own needs first.

Melissa Teissen
Absolutely, yeah. And I think that, that point, Gordon of, you know, just a very common experience, and maybe having a poor night's sleep, right. And that maybe distracts us from fully being present. And we can just give ourselves permission to maybe take a break during the day, or go to bed earlier that night or right, do something to actually respond to that need, instead of kind of pushing through and ignoring that needs. And I think the reality is, depending on how bigger or complicated the responses to our need, that can be really, really challenging, right? Taking a five minute break maybe isn't so difficult, although some days it may be is actually pretty difficult, right? But we can probably agree that taking a five minute break is going to be probably less difficult to do than taking two weeks off of work, right? But and this is why we really view courage as being another integral piece to really effective and sustainable self care. And I think this is also really where our model is maybe a bit different than some of the more traditional things we hear about self care. Because really, we think at least truly sustainable and effective self care is going to be kind of uncomfortable, at least at times, right? Because it's going to mean, doing these things that aren't the easy thing to do, right? Doing these things, like maybe having a conversation with somebody about changing responsibilities in the home, or having a conversation with an employee or having a conversation with a client about constantly canceling sessions, right, any of these things that are really important to do, but don't feel very good in the moment, right? And really do require courage to be willing to look at, why is this important? Why is it worth tolerating that discomfort? What is the potential benefit that can come to me on the other side of that discomfort, right. And I think there's just there's so many ways that courage shows up, even just in our day to day work, that we don't necessarily realize is actually requiring courage of us. And I think that's just incredibly valuable as well, to even just notice that and name it and recognize, okay, you know, what, we are already doing some courageous things. And maybe at the same time, there's some other things that we also really need to intentionally be courageous about, so that we can just have even more of the kind of life that we want to be having, or, as Karen and I were talking about this earlier today, that doing those things that are going to allow us to have even more of the life that our clients already think that we have, right? So we just really, again, kind of owe it owe it to our clients so that we can be more present and thus more effective to them, but also really owe it to ourselves to be able to, to also thrive in our in our lives just as we're trying to help our clients.

Gordon Brewer
Alright, have a care can't remember where I heard it. But I've always reminded of kind of a quote about about growth in that growth does not occur without discomfort. And I think that's, that's one of the things that, you know, I've I've had to remind myself of, a lot of times is that yeah, having getting uncomfortable leads to growth. I mean, it's just, yeah, and yeah, learning to lean into those things.

Karen Dyck
It's so interesting to what we've what we've heard from some of the women we've spoken to and I think Melissa and I personally have noticed for ourselves where we've we've realized we need to make Some changes that work in in order to really support our own wellness. And for some of us, that's meant making a decision to moving moving away from working with certain clients or write certain referral sources, or changing our hours or raising our fees. We see all of those things as actually really important parts of self care, and things that feel really, really uncomfortable. But I think without exception, and correct me if I'm wrong, Melissa, when we the people who've done those things, and leaned into the discomfort, the common experience is, it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought my clients just kind of went, yeah. Oh, well, okay, that makes sense. Right. And they, they could understand it. And yet, you know, in our heads, we were just imagining how horrible this is going to be for our clients. And, you know, in some ways, really not giving, giving them credit for being able to be adaptive, and, you know, accept changes in in the work that we do as well. So I think that's really something that stood out as well. It's often not as bad as we imagined. It's gonna be

Gordon Brewer
right, right. Yeah. Oh, this is such great stuff. And I know, we can talk for hours probably. Well, Karen and Melissa, what sort of maybe closing thoughts might you have, I want to be respectful of your time and that sort of thing.

Karen Dyck
We'd certainly encourage people if they're interested in learning more, to go to our website, intentional therapists.ca. We have a podcast as well through Bible one on ones. So you know, please listen to that as well. If you sign up for our newsletter, our free newsletter, there's an ideal workday exercise that you'll receive that can, I think, really be a good stepping stone for step in, in thinking about self care a little differently. Or, you know, Wes and I were just talking earlier today about another really great first step is actually just having a conversation with a colleague about self care, and whether that's checking in with them to see how they're doing, and finding someone that you feel safe with and being in being vulnerable and having some of those really important conversations.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes, I couldn't agree more. And folks are going to find this really helpful with the resources that you've got there and hope to have you all back here soon.