The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Okay, I'm hoping it's recording on my end.

James Marland
It's the recording button on the top left going Yes. Uh huh. Should be.

Gordon Brewer
Okay. All right. See if you'll do a little blurb here at the beginning and that way Rachel can pull it for social media.

James Marland
Okay, sure. Okay, so my name is James Marlin. And then this week, we are going to pull a little bit of a switcheroo on you where I'm going to interview Gordon on some of the things he's been working on, and some of his plans coming forward. It's going to be very exciting. I hope you stay tuned.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcasts. And I'm so happy to have back with me on this episode. James Marlin. Welcome, James. Hi,

James Marland
Gordon. Glad to be back. Yes.

Gordon Brewer
So one of the things we're going to do here in this particular episode, which is a little different, is it sometimes referred to as a reverse interview or reverse podcast. But I liked James mention of switcheroo here at the when we were discussing this, I had a time. So in this episode, we're going to kind of change seats here. And James is going to interview me about a project that they're working with that we've been working on around podcasting. So and some opportunities around that for people that if you're obviously you're listening to this podcast, so I'm gonna make the assumption that podcasting is something that is of interest to you whether on the receiving end, but we've got some exciting stuff to come up. So James is a start with everyone and Kent, for those folks that don't know you tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've landed on you landed.

James Marland
All right, I am the creator, of course, creation studio.com. I've been doing that for about six months now where I help therapists turn their expert knowledge into online courses. I've been working in mental health and social services for about 20 years doing everything from shelter, work, to de hospital intake to crisis work, to family based work, to assisted psychiatric mental health evaluations. And then for three years, I ran a virtual assistant company for therapy offices. So I've had quite a lot of experience working with mental health, supporting mental health. And it's really been a passion of my life to help people get the services they need.

Gordon Brewer
Yes. And James really does know his stuff. I'll say that. And in the time that I've gotten to know, James, we've known each other QA, oh, gosh, almost five years now. I think and so yeah. And so I'm really excited about this collaboration. So one of the things that we're going to be talking about is podcasting. And we've got an upcoming course that's going to be coming out. And we'll tell you a little bit more about that later, here in the interview. So here we go, James, let's do the switcheroo.

James Marland
All right, so I'll put on my interview hat. And, Gordon, thanks, thanks so much for being willing to answer some questions about podcasting. You are one of the first people I found on the podcast for therapists. And you've sort of been like this, the good neighbor, you know, the person that's a good neighbor for the community, helping people providing support and resources. And one of the big things that you do, you know, week in and week out is to produce a podcast with some interesting content and support for people. So what inspired you to start your own podcast? And what was that process? Like?

Gordon Brewer
Yes. So as I like to say, I kind of started the podcast on a whim. You know, I really never really, as matter of fact, when I first got started the practice of therapy, the website practice of therapy.com, I really just intended to for it to be just a blog and just a place to share content and resources and that kind of thing. And after I started it, you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts. And I kept hearing just kind of a little bit of a buzz and just kind of a little bit of a nudge from some of the other podcasts about starting a podcast and I thought, well, I'll give it a try. And that's really what how I approached it was just thinking that way Oh, you know, I'm just going to try it out. You know, I'm not sure how serious I want to take this stuff. But anyway, I jumped in. Seems like the first thing that I did was just to find out about microphones because I knew that was a that was a piece of this. But then there's a whole other list of things that I had to learn about, of just you know about podcast hosting, and about how do you get your podcasts up on like Apple podcasts and Spotify, and all of that kind of stuff, kind of the tech in which I'm a bit of a tinkerer, and so I love doing that kind of thing. And then also the whole editing kind of thing. And so anyway, and then the other thing that just kind of inspired me was I really knew that through podcasting, I would get to have just some really great conversations with people it's it's a medium where I've gotten to meet some really cool people and meet some at you know, quite frankly, some little bit of celebrity kind of people to some degree. I've interviewed Mike McCalla wits, the author of profit, profit first first

James Marland
picks this next. Yeah.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, those are great process. Yeah. So I'm like, Yeah, awkward. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, yeah. So and then just also connecting with other, other podcasters around around the country, and just different, different genres. And so that that's been kind of my inspiration. And just, you know, the feedback I was getting from people was that they were finding what I was doing helpful. So that kind of kept me going and really inspired me to kind of think, okay, what can I do to continue to build this out and be able to provide this week in and week out, I think originally, I was only trying to shooting for maybe getting it out once a month or every other week or something like that. But I finally got to the point where I thought, Okay, I'm gonna do this every week. And that's what it's been like ever since then.

James Marland
So you you started out doing the editing yourself?

Gordon Brewer
Yes. Yes, I did. Which was like a challenge. Yeah, it was. But as I said, I enjoyed being a tinkerer and enjoying that part of it, at least now I understand how things work. On the back end, I would say if somebody is doing is thinking of starting a podcast, unless they've got an inordinate amount of time on their hands. It's good to kind of outsource the podcast editing and the show notes and all of the things that can happen on the back end, because you know, it was I remember the first episode I did, it took me almost a full day to get that one episode done, because I was the learning curve was there, but I don't, you know, certainly you don't need to do that. That is not sustainable. But eventually, I got it down to where I could, I could get an episode ready in probably about an hour, hour, two hours, was about average for me at the time. You know, of course, we got so many more tools down from window, as started as far as podcast editing and creating shownotes and shows some reason, that kind of thing. So those were some of the big challenges in the beginning. And then just also continuing to, to get my name out there and get the podcast out there. So people were discovering it. Yeah.

James Marland
Did you use Audacity, the free program is that yes.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, that's what I started with. And I still use Audacity. Now to just like, record my intros and outros and that kind of thing. It's a great free resource. Yeah. It's very powerful.

James Marland
And once you understand it, it's it's not too bad. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Great. So. So getting your name out was a challenge. How did you overcome some of these challenges? I know you tinkered with some that you'd have. Like somebody helped you or did you just figure things out? What how did you overcome some of these things? Yeah.

Gordon Brewer
So once I got up, you know, I think once I started realizing, okay, if I'm going to do a weekly podcast, I'm gonna have to have some help with this. So my, my faithful companion and trusty virtual assistant, Rachel, shout out to you, Rachel, because I know you're hearing this because you didn't listen to all of it. So Rachel Oh, and I found each other online. And Rachel has been with me since, oh, gosh, 2017 2018 and doing the backend stuff for me. And so we kind of learn together better ways of doing everything. And she's, she's great. She does a wonderful job with this. So she also does my social media posts and that kind of thing. And so getting my name out there. So I guess some tips on that is, of course, social media is important. You know, I think, in our genre, probably Instagrams a good platform to be on. Also Facebook, those would be the top two, certainly LinkedIn is good. And then, you know, probably, it's kind of faded, but I was on Twitter a lot earlier. But those are the ones that are mainly mainly looked at earlier, but also doing building an email list of sending out a weekly email that had links to the podcast. And so that's grown over the over the years, but and then, then the other thing that I've done is to get on other people's podcasts. So being able to be on some of the other podcasts in this genre, has been a big boost as well, and getting the name out there and growing the podcast.

James Marland
Great. Well, that that kind of is a great segue for the next question, because a couple, maybe even just a year ago, you started talking about creating the site craft network, a network of podcasts, which helps with getting on other people's podcasts and helping each other. So how did you know you have this podcast? So how did you start growing a Podcast Network? What was that like?

Gordon Brewer
Yes, so yeah, so I think it was last year, maybe a year before now as year before last, it was in 2021. I bit the bullet and I went to the Podcast Movement conference. And so we were just coming out of COVID to the COVID lock downs and stuff. And so that was one of the first conferences I went to. And so I got to, you know, get to interact with literally podcasters from all over the world, in every conceivable genre. And the you know, that's what sparked the idea of maybe creating a network. You know, there's a lot of different podcast networks out there on one of the biggest is NPR, there's one that comes to mind. There's some unblu I can't think of some of the others out. HubSpot.

James Marland
There's a HubSpot that work with us. The guy who does story brand. Oh, yeah. Donald Miller. Miller. Yeah. And I think Amy Porterfield is on Yes. Yes. Some other like, out of this world is Neil Neil, the Smart Passive Income guys, he

Gordon Brewer
Pat Flynn. I don't know if he's on that network or not. I don't, I think Pat is still coming in. And yeah,

James Marland
anyways, there's some massive networks out there that are super helpful. Anyways, so right, you were exposed to some of that?

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, I was exposed to some of that. And then just some of our, some of my, our colleagues, the people that are actually in the network, I started having conversations with them about that. And they said, Oh, yeah, this would be something that I really be interested in doing. So I just put it out there. And so when I formed the network, in this past year, I had, I think there's six of us now six of us podcasters, or maybe seven, that are in the network now. That that join, we joined forces. And so we've started cross, cross promoting our podcasts and really acting as a community within the within the network. And so that that was kind of my idea is really to be able to share resources around our podcasts, to be able to cross promote what we're doing. You know, we've got a good diversity of people in this whole genre or niche of mental health providers or allied health providers, that kind of thing. And that's really kind of how I got how I created it was specific to this niche. And so, quick shout out to some of these guys, we've got Kim Tolson with the traveling therapist podcast. We got Aaron Potratz and Nathan Hawkins with the shrink think podcast. We've got Lisa mustard with the therapy show. We've got the wise press practice podcast with I'm Whitney Owens, we've got the thorough thrive through revival, thrive, the revival. I get one on one podcast with Melissa. Tilson Tyson and Karen deck, and they're there they round us out to make us International. They're based in Canada, and then your podcast, James. The details, practice, yes. And so, and then I've got a second podcast called The kindness and compassion podcast. That is there. Oh, I left out Daniel fava with private practice elevation podcast. So good core group of people. We're very compatible, like minded kind of people. And so we've been really excited to create this network.

James Marland
Yeah, and just speaking from the sidelines, it has been wonderful to be just to get some chatting, you know, there, you have a circle group for the network. And we do some chatting and sharing and sharing of resources. And every so often we get together and talk about plants and how to help each other. And when people are releasing things, we can put it in our newsletters. It's just been a very supportive, it's been easier to go further faster with a group of people like minded people than just trying to figure it out on your own. So I really appreciate the network. Yeah, and so what you mentioned it a little bit, but what sets the network apart from the other networks that somebody could join?

Gordon Brewer
Well, I think we're very, we're very niche specific. And that, you know, we're, we're really focused on helping, you know, professionals in this kind of this zone genre, or this niche of mental health, self help, I would say allied health, all of that sort of thing. So, you know, as they say, the, you know, I think we mentioned Pat Flynn, I think I heard it from him first was the riches are in the niches, so to speak. And so I think that's true for us. And, you know, those of us that are in private practice, being niche specific goes a long way. And so, yeah, and so that that's been part of the of the push here is that we're for keeping it, keeping it intentionally kind of small, and that, that kind of sets us apart from other other networks, where, you know, there's other networks that I've noticed that are out there are, are, have a diverse number of podcasts that cover a broad range of topics. And so nothing wrong with that. But I just felt like I wanted to be very niche specific with this network.

James Marland
So noticing a pattern here, you, you saw a need for podcasting for therapists, when you started a podcast, or therapist, then you saw a need for a network, you know, where people could work together. And just recently, within like, the last couple of months, you started talking about creating a course to help other people start enjoying the benefits of podcasting. So what's your story behind that? And what what sort of prompted you to start thinking about creating a course to help other people create their own podcasts?

Gordon Brewer
Right. So again, just listening to my friends, and, you know, one of the part of the, you know, within the network really starting to hear people talk about how they, they've had people reach out to them, the individual podcasters said, Well, how did you start that? Or how did you do that? And what's in what's involved in getting a podcast started and that sort of thing. And so, naturally, just thinking, thinking about that as Oh, that's something I would enjoy teaching to folks, and then pulling in people like you, James, that have had the experience of starting a podcast and what's that? Why can how you get that out there. So James and I have collaborated on creating a course on podcasting, and how particularly specific to mental health providers, allied health providers, you know, how you do that and going from so I like to say the A to Z of podcasting. And so that's been what, what's kind of inspired me with that because I think one of the things about podcasting is it is it is a growing media and more and more people are listening to podcasts now that you It has just grown exponentially. I think when I started in, it started my podcasts back in 2017. There were only there were less than I want to go out on a limb and say they were less than 500,000 podcasts back then is probably smaller than that probably around the 200,000. You know, podcast available across everything, you know, across the world available. And now it has grown to over, you know, over a million, you know, podcasts that are out there. But, you know, I think one of the keys is I've been, I've stuck it out. And so but sticking it out and being consistent. So I like to say, consistent and persistent. It has done well. And the other thing that I kind of learned along the way that I wanted to share with people is that it has created through podcasting. Yeah, I've created some new income streams, you know, the courses I have available, also just people reaching out to me for consulting. And then yeah, even with one of my newer podcast, I'm starting to get more clients for my practice, because people are finding out about that. And then compassion, yeah, the kindness and compassion podcast. And then the other thing that was just totally caught me by surprise, I started having advertisers reached out to me about sponsoring the podcasts. And so that was, that was really surprised to me, and that I had not really thought about that. But once I started looking into it, there are really a lot of different ways that you can monetize your podcast. Number one, have it pay for itself, but number two is create some extra income for your for yourself in within the context of podcasting.

James Marland
Yeah, there's, there's several different ways to do that. You've mentioned a couple like your your podcast can help you sell your products. So if you have some sort of product or course to sell a podcast about it is a great way to get the the note the the information out. But also, you mentioned as you podcast guests with other people or people, podcast guests with you, that expands your reach to different markets. So having a place to do that, like a podcast is really important. affiliates and advertisers are, are great ways to make to monetize it. And then just what you said about your podcast has increased the recognition of clients in the area. And so they would schedule with you. So you could just have it as a service, or the what the other one that I hear a lot is Patreon. Like getting your your fans who like your content to pay a few dollars a month to support your podcast. Right? So yeah,

Gordon Brewer
yeah, that's, that's yeah, I was just gonna say that's kind of the model I'm using for the kindness and compassion podcast, and that people can become a patron of the podcast. So yeah.

James Marland
So this course, who's the course designed for? And what are some of the key things that it would do for somebody? What are the what are the benefits of it? Yeah,

Gordon Brewer
so the course is really designed specifically for those of us in the mental health field, because I think, I know, as you have pointed out a lot of times James is, is that we probably don't recognize the knowledge that we have. And I think that now more than ever, people are, look, you know, mental health is front and center for us, as a society. And I think, now more than ever, people are looking for ways to do some self help kind of stuff, but understand themselves better understand their emotions better understand how they interact with the world better, and all of those kinds of things. And so who, you know, our professions, were the some of the best equipped to do that. And so my really kind of the thing that I'm hoping for with this is to Pete teach people how to get started with podcasting, so that they do have a greater reach greater influence and really, really live into their why or their purpose or their mission. You know, because I think most of us that go into this field, do it out of a sense of a greater purpose or a greater meaning or a greater calling. And so, podcasting is one of the best ways that I know of to do that in You know, here here in the dare I say, the modern world. And so the course itself is going to walk. As I said earlier, we're going to walk people through kind of the A to Z of getting a podcast out there, getting it published and maintaining it, and all of that sort of thing. So we'll just, we're in the course, we're going to be covering things like, how do you name your podcast? You know, what do you? What sort of equipment are you going to need to have? What sort of what are the what are the things you need to know about podcast editing, whether you want to do it yourself or outsource that I think it's good information to have understanding kind of the back side of podcasting, as far as things like RSS feeds, and how it gets from, from your microphone on to Apple podcasts and Spotify and Google podcasts and, you know, Amazon music and places like that, you know, how does that how does that happen in the background, also, just thinking about the style of podcasts that you want to have, whether it's an interview style, or whether you're, you're just doing your own teaching, or any of those kinds of things, and just thinking about how you want your podcast to come out, or how what sort of, you know, format you want to have. The other thing too, you have to think about is your branding, as far as having a show logo and a show artwork, and all of those kinds of things. How you increase the SEO, search engine optimization of your podcast so that more people find you being able to know how to create shownotes and show some reason those kinds of things, all have that kind of back side of things that are part of podcasting. But also, as we alluded to already, is, once you get your podcast up and going, how do you take it and monetize it is the big word there is as far as getting people to start paying you for what you're doing. And that it's, you know, have different different streams of income through your podcast. Because, yeah, not to get too far off on a tangent. But one, one of the things about being in private practice that I think a lot of people really figure out sooner or later is is that the traditional one to one model of providing services, there's a limit to that. I mean, there's only so many people you can see in a week, only see so many sessions you can hold. And when you reach that cap, you need to look for other ways to diversify your income. So podcasting is a tool for being able to do that, and being able to have a greater reach. And you go, yeah, yeah,

James Marland
I'm just envisioning somebody's like, oh, I have this specialty. And I can talk about my specialty for 30 or 40 minutes a week, and people will listen to it and get insights from it. It's a it's a great, it's a great selling piece. Like you're already an expert at what you do. Now, you're just recording it and talking about it with other people and you find your niche you find your audience. I mean, I'm sure it's it's much harder than that. But that, in essence, that's what you're, you're gonna teach people how to do how to, like, share their expertise. But in a podcast,

Gordon Brewer
right, right. Yeah. And it's, uh, you know, I think that thing to do backtrack a little bit, I think the the appeal of podcasting is that it's really kind of a personal kind of genre in that are our platform in that you've got your earbuds in and you're listening to someone talk to you, and it feels very personal. And so I think that's the sense that people get and so as we know, you know, one of the cornerstones of our profession is being able to engage with people and have people connect with you, is where you're going to be most effective. So, podcasting is a way of doing that. But yeah, and so we've got this, we got to get back out, get myself back on topic here. We've got this course coming up. And we've also we're going to be doing some free webinars, really just kind of introducing people to some of these concepts. And yeah, so did you have questions about that, James?

James Marland
Sure. Well, what if somebody's interested? Just, you're gonna give them the webinar information, but just in general, can you give some advice for people who are aspiring podcasters? On what what their next steps are and then you can throw in, you know, you should sign up for this webinar, because you're gonna learn a lot. So what's some advice that you would give for somebody who wants to start?

Gordon Brewer
Well, I think one of the things is being able to kind of identify what you want your podcast to be about. I think that's, that's kind of a kind of a basic kind of thing. But I think that the other thing is, is people hear from me all the time is understand your why behind it. I mean, you know, what, you know, I think all of us that are in podcasting have different reasons for doing a podcast, but just thinking about what would be your why and, and not to cut yourself short, with thinking, Oh, this is too big, or this is hard to do. If I did it, you can do to me, that's, that's, that's one thing I will say is because I'm not, I'm not this. I'm not all that. I'm intelligent enough, but I'm not all that smart. But anyway, so the course is really designed to break it down for you. So you feel confident and being able to start a podcast, to help you reach the goals that you want to reach around what you do in life as much as anything. I think, like I said earlier, we all have different missions, different purposes, different wise that we do do things. And yeah, and so that's what the course is designed to do is teach you all the tech side of things, teach you the, you know, a systematic way of going about this from A to Z and feeling confident that you can do this. And then also just getting getting the return on your investment of learning this stuff. And then being able to grow from there. Because, yeah, I think podcasting isn't going anywhere. It's going to be around for a long time, I think.

James Marland
Great. When you're when you're talking about your why, like I was thinking, Well, why do I like the podcast? Why do I do my course creation? And you know, part of it is job and money, you know, but that's not that's not the that's not the why behind the why, right? Like, I like money, and I like helping people. But the main Why is one it fulfills, I think the podcasting and the course creation fulfills a need in myself to to help people to do better. And then it also provides like, a legacy type thing. Like, I want to leave my mark on something more than he he worked 30 years at a job and then he died or something. Yeah, I want some sort of legacy to leave an impact to leave. So understanding your so as Gordon was said, you can ask that question to yourself. Yeah. Do you want money, but there's probably something behind that. That that is actually more motivating. For your your purpose.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I would just add to that, I was just, as you were saying that I was just reminded of Victor Frankel's book, Man's Search for Meaning. And one of the big takeaways for me with all that is, is that all of us needs kind of a purpose and meaning in our life. In order to feel to be healthy as a human being and be healthy, emotionally, I think having that purpose and meaning and so podcasting, for me, has been very meaningful.

James Marland
Awesome. That book is amazing. It's a quick read, but it is so packed with insight and just deep, deep human experience. I recently downloaded on Audible and listen to it again was amazing. Yeah. So what are what are people's next steps if they want to get involved with just even exploring if this is right for them? Yeah.

Gordon Brewer
So we've got some webinars coming up. I think as we're recording this, I think this episode will come out probably the week of one of the webinars, which will be on February 17 2023. So you're listening past that, sorry, but, but anyway, the course won't be released until March 31. And we're going to do it live. So it's not going to be like your typical recorded course. So we're going to do it live online via zoom. So that that's going to be the fun to do and it's kind of at least our plan right now is it's going to be over five hours of over instruction and then we're going to also follow up with a few office hours and work days and work sessions to help people get things going with that and plus inability. Yeah, yeah, all of that sort of thing. So it's gonna be, you're gonna get, you're gonna get a good I think a good ROI, return on investment, not only your time, but also you know what you invest in the course, monetarily. But anyway, if a person's interested in finding out more about the course itself, they can go to practice of therapy.com/podcasting course. And that'll, that'll get you to the landing page where you can find out more specifically about the course. But also, if you're just wanting to think, if you're thinking, Okay, I'm not sure if this is for me or not, I'm just really want to know a little more. We're doing the webinars which are going to be out there. And you can just go to practice of therapy.com/webinars, and find out when the next one is going to be and those are, those will also be live webinars where you get to ask questions and that sort of thing. So our plan is, is James and I are going to be doing one and then our friend and colleague, Dr. David Hall, from psych Maven is also going to be doing one in conjunction with with that, so yeah, so can you check those out? Yeah, it's

James Marland
really been exciting to start this podcasting journey. And I'm really glad I did. And I think your encouragement of like sticking with it is so true. Because like, the first time you try something, it's hard, but it gets as you do more and more, it gets easier. And podcasting is one of those things that the more you do it, the easier it gets. I remember editing my first episode took me half a day. And then now I can do it in a half hour or or to, you know, depending on how complicated the interview is. And it's, it's, I just see the great things that can happen with with the the network and the podcasting, and just sticking with it. Alright. Great. Well, any any. I like to I like to add, end my podcast with if you could remember one thing from this episode? What would that be? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna lay that question on you right now, Gordon, if you had just one thing for people to remember about the URL that we talked about, from this episode, what would that be? Well, I

Gordon Brewer
would say it is. It is possible for you to reach to increase your reach and influence with people. And that you can you can get your message out in the world and really live into your why and your mission in the world. And that you can do that through podcasting, and podcasting. Once you know all the steps, what you know what to do. It's it's a fun thing to do. But also it's very doable, regardless of where you are, and if people want to hear your story. So I think that's an important piece of that as well.

James Marland
And before I turn it over to you to close out my one thing that I want people to remember goes to the bat, the beginning of the episode where Gordon was saying, I just I just decided to try it. Don't be afraid to try new things. You're not sure where it's gonna end up. And and I'm really glad that you tried new things, Gordon, back over to you.

Gordon Brewer
Well, thanks. Well, again, thanks to James for doing this cattle switcheroo as we're calling it. So on the podcast, it's been fun for me and I always enjoy being on other people's podcasts. So this was kind of like anakata twofer with us getting interviewed on my own podcast, which was fun. But also, be sure and find out more about James and the course creation studio and tell folks where they can find you, James.

James Marland
Yeah, it's just caught Well, I have a Kajabi website right now that I'm switching over. So it's courses, dot course creation studio.com. That's my main website. I have another one on Squarespace. That's course creation studio.com. But I'm switching it over. So either one I'll get you to the right place. But that's where it is and then check out the scaling therapy practice. It's the new podcast I host with Dr. David Hall where we talk about different ways that all sizes of therapy practices can scale their business you don't necessarily have to be a group practice to scale you can scale as a solo practice. You can scale up products, you can scale with podcasts, like we just talked about the different ways to scale. So that has been a lot of fun. And just something that we're going to keep growing. So you can find us there.

Gordon Brewer
Awesome. Awesome. And we'll have all these links in the show notes in the show notes, summary for people. And be sure to check out our the upcoming webinars and the other automated webinars that we have available at practice of therapy.com/webinars. And be sure and subscribe to our email lists at both places, because that way you can stay informed of the different resources and opportunities we have coming up. So, James, thanks again for doing this with me and hopefully, folks who you love to get your feedback on this little experiment of doing the switcheroo. So take care folks