The Practice of Therapy

New Understandings in Neuroscience For Treating Trauma In Your Practice
Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm happy for you to get to know today.
Caitlin Rose. Welcome Caitlin. Glad you're here.
Caitlin Rose: Thank you. Yeah. I'm really, really excited to be here with you.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. And so we're gonna dive into talking about, um, neuroscience and trauma, uh, which I know is a, a topic that's interest interesting to most of us that are in the therapy world. But Caitlin, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah. Thank you. Uh, gosh, I always, when I get this question, you always wonder how far back should I go? Uh, you know, I can. Well, I'll start with where I'm at and then we'll, we'll retrace a little bit. So Good. Good. Um, I, my company is build resilience and we help, uh, therapists to get unstuck, both personally as well as with their clients, um, by providing a deep foundation of nervous system regulation.
And, uh, I am. Uh, certified as a performance neuroscience certified coach, which is a whole big mouthful, which basically just means, uh, you know, I've really spent a lot of time deeply understanding the neuroscience, the science behind how our brain and nervous system work and how to work with our brain and nervous system instead of fighting it.
Uh, and I really started on this journey going. Uh, way back I began as a yoga teacher and, uh, was really immediately interested in bringing yoga to people. Who might not have, you know, aren't the sort of classic, uh, type of person you would think would go to a yoga class. So I was working with, uh, homeless populations.
I was working with, um, veterans who were dealing with trauma. Um, and I found that a lot of. Sort of what I had learned wasn't totally accessible, um, to people, but I really deeply, I was really interested in the fundamental principles of what was happening, um, in, you know, what, what is. What's happening? Why do we like yoga?
Why do we, like, why do we gravitate towards these different somatic strategies when they're working? Why are they working? Um, and how do we make that more accessible and available to people who maybe don't have an hour and a half to get on a yoga mat? Um. Also when they don't work, why don't they work?
And that was just as, uh, interesting to me because I did see a lot of interventions just not connecting. Um, and I also saw that in my own life. So I reached a point where I was having, I, I have a, you know, intense, uh, trauma history and, you know, was dealing with complex PTSD myself, which is a lot of, you know, as many of us, I'm sure a lot of people can, you know, relate to that.
Mm-hmm. A lot of times it's our own history, our own experience that really brings us. To the work and, and makes us kind of like personally and professionally obsessed with untangling some of these more difficult questions. And, uh, so I got to a place where I couldn't even really use a lot of the strategies that I was teaching.
You know, I could, I, I was sitting with myself with major panic attacks and anxiety and I, in my head I'm like, okay, sit there. Deep breathe. Do you know all the things I knew that I had in my toolkit? And I found that at the time I needed help the most. That was the time that all of those tools were the most inaccessible to me.
And so that was a real puzzle. You know, at first I got really, really frustrated by that and sort of went through all that rollercoaster of feelings that since then I've heard from so many clients, maybe I'm just broken, maybe I'm just lazy. You know, I'm the only person in the university who feels this way.
Uh, and then finally, I think because I had enough of an education. To understand some of what might be going on in the nervous system. I got really curious. Mm-hmm. And I really started to just wonder, well, why is that? That doesn't make sense if these are supposed to be breathing exercises and, and somatic exercises and poses that are supposed to calm me down.
But at the time that I'm most revved up and most triggered, that's the time I'm least able to take advantage of them. That seems. Right. Right. And there must be what's going on there. And so that was kind of the beginning of this very long, you know, 10 or 15 year journey now, um, and coming out the other side and really, you know, having a coherent explanation that I can offer to, to clients.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. I know there was, um, in, in some of the stuff that you gave to me when, uh, in preparing for this episode and there was a, there was a, a topic that you had mentioned, uh. Um, which I think this might be a good segue to for you to say more about, because it's gotten me really curious as well.
Mm-hmm. Is the difference between nervous system regulation and nervous system capacity. Yeah. And I thought that is just, you know, I just think about people that. Have experienced trauma, especially extreme trauma, they feel overwhelmed all the time. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, just, uh, I'm just curious about that as far as the capacity.
And so, yeah. So tell us what you've learned.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, yeah. Well that's a great, I'm glad you brought that up. That's a great, uh, really just, uh, picks up exactly like where I was. Saying, what is the, there's a puzzle here and what is that puzzle? Uh, why is it not connecting? And it is in the difference between nervous system regulation and nervous system capacity.
So, you know, I've been doing this, uh, 10 or 15 years in that when I started. A lot of these topics were still pretty niche. And I think in that time, more and more there's been, uh, you know, I, I see, you know, topics about vagal, you know, the vagus nerve, vagus nerve exercises, polyvagal theory, nervous system regulation.
It's starting to kind of filter into the popular consciousness and, and more and more into the world, uh, of, of therapy. Um. And so there's, you know, an instinct of like, okay, we're starting to figure out that nervous system regulation is really important as a foundation for mental and emotional wellbeing.
Um, that we need to, you know, we need to get grounded. We need to get resourced, we need to pay attention to what's going on, uh, in our nervous system, and you know how our heart, you know, what's going on with our heart rate, what's going on with our breathing? That's all really a really, really good awareness.
Um, but where it falls apart is, uh, sometimes we don't, we're focused on, we're like, oh, I have all these tools and I need to help this person get regulated, or I need to help myself get regulated. Um, but if we're not aware of what our actual capacity is, then we can kind of, we can be applying a tool that isn't really accessible and it doesn't actually achieve.
Uh, the result. Mm-hmm. So that was what was happening with me is I had all these tools where I was like, oh, deep breathing is a regulating thing, so if I'm freaked out and panicking, I should do that. Um, and it wasn't regulating to me at all. Mm-hmm. Uh, because I wasn't really appreciating my personal nervous system capacity.
So, uh, you know, nervous system regulation is the act of getting within. Our, let's say our window of tolerance, right? Mm-hmm. So our window, if our window of tolerance, we can define that as this is my, uh, the ability of my nervous system. How much energy and information can my nervous system tolerate right now, right?
Right. It can tolerate a lot. It can tolerate a little, the act of getting regulated is getting within my window of tolerance, right? But that's gonna look very different. Um, if my capacity is here or my capacity is here mm-hmm. It's really difficult to get regulated with a, with a, within a very narrow window.
Mm-hmm. And that's where a lot of the struggle comes is we're trying to get regulated where we might be better served first. Expanding that window Wow. And then working on getting. Getting regulated within that. And there's so much kind of grief that happens in that struggle to get regulated. Mm-hmm. Um, and rather than just appreciating, well, yeah, what's the, what, what's the window and how do we grow that window?
And that's been the biggest, uh, gap that we've sought to fill, is just tackling that question, how do you build. Your window of tolerance, right? So that it becomes easier and easier.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. So now I'm really curious, what are the ways in which you build that window of tolerance?
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, so there's a couple ways to approach this and, and one is just like purely physiologically.
Um, and, and I do wanna talk about that 'cause I think those nuts and bolts are really important. The other is just sort of some general principles of understanding how to collaborate with the nervous system. Um, so in general you wanna meet, make sure you're meeting the nervous system where it's at. Um, you know, I always, this is a big kind of just.
Principle that I try to hue to and, and really pass off to the practitioners that I work with. We're not smarter than the nervous system. We're not stronger than the nervous system. Uh, the nervous system is the system that we have to, it's an exquisitely fine tuned machine for managing our energy, our emotions, our experiences.
And if it's doing something, it's doing it for a good reason. So very often lacking a real fundamental understanding of what it's doing and why often we end up sort of in this pitched battle with the nervous system, right? Um, expecting it, you know, like open up or, you know, give me the capacity to reflect or, you know, or something, or feel.
And if it's not doing that, then uh, there's always a good reason. And so it's really about, um, entering into a collaborative. Relationship, uh, and taking it on ourselves to really understand the mechanics of how this exquisitely fine tuned machine was built and how it's meant to operate. Mm-hmm. And what it's doing.
Um. So meeting it where it's at first, first of all is how we, you know, we gotta go in to go out, right? Really? Mm-hmm. Get curious about. Okay, so like, for example, I'm gonna share a quick story. Uh, when I first sort of figured out this as a working paradigm and I got curious about my own window of tolerance.
I had an expectation that my tolerance was probably pretty broad because I'd been doing this work. I was a yoga teacher. I knew all these things I'd been, you know, I was very like, educated about this stuff. Um, so I sort of had just this unconscious assumption of, I'm sure it's quite broad. And I went into this exercise, uh, around just being very honest about what I could tolerate in the moment without distancing or dissociating myself.
And as soon as I engaged, it was a somatic exercise. As soon as I engaged with it. I noticed myself just take off, just like, yeah, checkout mentally, and it was such a sudden and it was like just this abrupt, you know, wake up call. Um, and really frustrating on some levels because I had to really face up to how, how narrow I band was that I was working with, but also then deeply, um.
Really satisfying to realize, oh, I can work from here. Mm-hmm. I, I kept trying to work from out here and nothing was really connecting 'cause I wasn't able to really be honest about what was happening in my nervous system, Uhhuh. But as, as soon as I could get honest, it was confronting. But then I really started to see actual change happened because I was meeting my nervous system where I was at.
So that's kind of, that's just the. Getting at some of the kind of, uh, the way of orienting to this, but the real nuts and bolts of it. Um, you know, we, uh, I really got deeply into the neurophysiology of, uh, nervous system capacity during COVID actually, because I had a lot of, I just, this wave of clients coming to me.
I'd moved online previously, I'd been all. Offline group workshops. Um, you know, I was teaching, uh, doing workshops at colleges and, uh, all that stopped. And then I was, everything was online and I had this wave of people coming to me in this acute state of panic and anxiety. Um, and I was hitting a lot of these same questions that I'd had for years.
I, I'm not in the room with them. I, I'm trying to figure out how to reach them. They're just in this spiral. How do I get through? Uh, and we really, um, I went back to my basics and I just started, um, doing as many assessments as I could, and I had a lot of people coming in. So I had a really pretty broad data set.
And I started doing this assessment of, um, you know, mental and emotional symptoms, but then also. Uh, their physiology, what was going on with their breathing, what was going on with their blood chemistry, um, and giving them simple at-home tests that they could do. And what I started to see this, this pattern, um, was their vagal tone was really low.
Their c, their CO2 tolerance, their, their tolerance for carbon dioxide in their bloodstream was really low. Um, and their vascular. Or I won't say capacity. VA vascular flexibility was really low, meaning they're just chronically tense. So they're, and, and chronically, um, holding this chronic tension in their veins and arteries.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and so we just started to work directly with those capacities. So, you know, we did a little bit of psychoeducation to give them a little bit of context and some reason to invest their time and energy in this. And then we just started working with, uh, exercises to strengthen vagal tone, increase CO2 tolerance, and, um, increase vascular flexibility.
Technically it's called vascular compliance. Um, and. It was the, the transformations were profound. Yeah. Uh, it really kind of blew me away. I mean, I knew all this stuff worked, but just being really disciplined about just doing that and seeing how many other things just cleared up, uh, was pretty incredible and has really laid the foundation for Right.
All the work that I do until today. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So with those three things, uh, what, what would be, how, what's the modality for. For working with those things. Yeah.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah. So there's a lot, there's a lot of different ways you can come at it. And again, deciding on the particular intervention is gonna go back to that basic principle of understanding where this person, where their nervous system is at.
Um, so this is where I lean because different strategies are going to be more or less activating. Mm-hmm. Um, and so you need the trick is to find an intervention that, uh, you know, that gives them the most, um, gives them the most leverage in terms of, you know, really gives them a chance to intervene and shifts something in their physiology while still being tolerable in terms of how activating it is.
Um, to their nervous system. Mm-hmm. So this is where I really lean on polyvagal theory and, uh, you know, Stephen Por just is the model of the ladder of engagement, of understanding. I, I don't know how, uh, you know, this is sort of gaining traction, but I I never wanna assume that people have a familiarity.
Right.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Um, well, yeah. I think there'll be pe people that are very familiar with it and then Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll want to know more.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. It, it really, so I mean, the ladder of engagement is basically just describing the stages of our stress response and uh, you know, it's a hierarchical model and so it's understanding.
Uh, you know, at the, at the top, when we're at the top of the ladder, we're in a mode of our stress response that's fundamentally social. Sometimes we're not used to thinking of that as part of our stress response, but it a absolutely is. Our first instinct in dealing with stress is, can I reach out and find someone to help me?
Can I talk it through? Can I, you know, what can I do relationally to mediate the stress? Mm-hmm. So that's, that's like the top of the ladder. Um. When, or if that's inaccessible to us, there's nobody to help for whatever reason. You know, we try to reach out, we're rebuffed or, or whatever. Um, we descend down the ladder into fight or flight.
And that's what we're most commonly we most commonly associate with as our stress response. Um, so fight or flight is I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna fight back, I'm gonna run away. Right? And I've gotta mobilize a lot of internal energy and resource to make, to do that, to take those actions. That's, uh, most people when they're coming in and they're presenting with symptoms of panic, anxiety, or a whole range of, you know, just disorders and dysfunction, like something's not connecting.
Um, it's not so much about fight or flight. It's really rooted in a disruption. In fight or flight, an inability to, to complete the fight or flight cycle. There's nothing wrong with fight or flight. So I think sometimes it gets demonized. Right? Right. It's a very necessary part of our physiology. Right, right.
Um, but what happens is, for what, one reason or another, our ability to complete that instinct, to protect ourself, to fight back or to run away is interrupted and then it stays, that energy stays stuck in our nervous system. Uh, and it can, it's held indefinitely. There's no. Um, time bound mechanism by which that energy dissipates.
It really, we need to go back and release it, renegotiate it, uh, complete it, right? Mm-hmm. And so when we get, mm-hmm. What happens when we are carrying this really high level of activation could be from a acute stressor, acute trauma, or a chronic stress, or a chronic trauma. Uh, over time it's not sustainable for a nervous system.
To be in that state of activation. And so we adapt by moving further down the ladder, um, into states of, uh, freeze and then collapse or, you know, dissociation. Uh, and it's just a way of protecting ourselves internally from those intolerable feelings of chronic activation. Um, so when somebody's we're in that state of, uh, freeze or dis or collapse.
We, that's where we end up finding like, I need to relax. But I can't relax, relaxing makes me nervous. I want to do all these things, but if I try to sit and deep breathe, all those stuck feelings come up and I don't know how to renegotiate them. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that really is the art and the science, and it's something, I mean, that is what we take, you know, like that's our, the program that we guide practitioners through over several months is how do you, first of all understand your own?
Internal environment.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Um,
Caitlin Rose: gain both a cognitive and an intuitive understanding of your client's internal environment, communicate to them. Help give them the frameworks and the vocabulary to assess where they're at. Mm-hmm. And then take this suite of tools. Okay, here's, you know, this body of tools that can potentially help with vagal tone, can potentially help with CO2.
Um, and let's find what's a match for your nervous system. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, I think for me, a big part of my, my message to people is like. It's not just a check the box, you know, one size fits all. Um, it's really about making, befriending the nervous system and understanding there are, we don't have to sit there and throw spaghetti at a wall like there are mm-hmm.
Clear principles and frameworks to figure out what works and, and what doesn't work. But it's really about partnering with respecting our nervous system and, and where it's at and meeting it where it's at.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Can you give a, just a few examples maybe of, um, of the specifics around, um, um, just say, for example, the CO2 capacity?
Caitlin Rose: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Um, you know, what would you, what, what would be some of the interventions there?
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, so building CO2 capacity is really about, uh. Gradually. Um, so softening our breath and, uh, gradually lessening, um, the, the oxygen that we're taking in relative to the, uh, CO2. So a lot of times we think of, okay, I need.
Like to relax. I need a big, long, deep breath. Um, but actually what we're doing in building CO2 tolerance is we're allowing the, uh, we're, we're not forcefully exhaling as much, and we're allowing the CO2, um, to gradually build up in our brain, so, uh, in our, in our bloodstream. So. For example, um, you know, there's, uh, a, like a breath hold that somebody could do where you're just, uh, you know, you're breathing softly and then intermittently, uh, you know, gently pinching your nostrils.
Mm-hmm. Um, or just blocking the air passage. Um, there's another breathing exercise around like, I call it like feather breathing, where you're breathing, uh, nasal breathing. So gently that, you know, you imagine like my finger's a feather and, uh, I'm gonna try to breathe so gently that I don't disturb the feather.
Right? And, uh, so what that's doing is, uh, we're offloading. Less CO2, it's slowly starting to build up. And if we have a low tolerance, we're going to start just that very simple breathing exercise is likely gonna start to feel agitating very quickly.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Caitlin Rose: Um, so that's when just an understanding of the window of tolerance is really important.
'cause it'll feel counterintuitive. It'll feel like, ah, you know?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And,
Caitlin Rose: and, uh. Clients need a way of kind of giving some context to that internal experience. Um, and, and just understanding like it's totally, like we can break this down as much as we want. We can go as slow as we want, just to understand that that feeling is not, um, it's not dangerous, it's just coming up against the limits of your capacity.
And as we build your brain's tolerance to, for CO2, um. You're going to gradually and gradually that's gonna be easier and easier. And then what's also gonna happen is you're gonna notice in your day-to-day life stressors are more tolerable. Um mm-hmm. Everyday stressors are more tolerable. Um, and when they can start to kind of put the dots together and you have those light bulb moments that, you know, is really kind of the glue that makes people come back to exercises that would other be wise, be, you know.
Kind of boring or hard to remember or feel like, you know. It feels agitating. So it doesn't feel like, oh, yay, that's I, you know, I wanna sit down and do this. Mm-hmm. But a lot of what we work with is just that, like also the science of habit formation. How do you make something? Mm-hmm. How do you, you know, help somebody really weave something into their.
That was a long answer to your question, but, oh, well. Well,
Gordon Brewer: that's, that's, it is just fascinating to me. And I was just, I was curious too, how, um, I think a most of our, you know, most of the listeners will be familiar with other somatic approaches, you know, like, um, brain spotting or e mdr, r, those kinds of things.
Yeah. How does this, how does this approach kind of integrate with that or that sort of thing?
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, yeah. I love that question. Um, so the way I always introduce. This whole framework is, think of it as a scaffolding. It's not gonna replace any modality that you currently use. It's just gonna make everything you do easier.
Gordon Brewer: Right? 'cause
Caitlin Rose: every intervention is happening on the, on the foundation of like your client's nervous system. Mm-hmm. What, you know, we're intervening with the hope to make a change. Um, but that change is always gonna happen exponentially. You know, quicker or more EAs, easefully if there's a foundation of somatic awareness and regulation.
Mm-hmm. Um, so for example, with, you know, I think E MDR R is a really great example. Uh, EMDR is about, um, basically, you know, it's a mo it's a methodology for finding and really targeting those stuck energetic charges in the nervous system and processing them. Right.
Gordon Brewer: And
Caitlin Rose: it can be, you know, almost miraculous for a lot of people because it really is, you're speaking the language of the nervous system, you know, and, and you are mm-hmm.
Really going in and just supporting the nervous system and what it's already built to do. Um, and so I think that was part of like Francine Shapiro's real insight. Right. Right. She just started processing stuff and she wasn't even cognitively aware of what was going on. Mm-hmm. But she had the, you know, the.
Wherewithal to just follow that and be curious about it and kind of find out where it led. So I think that's why, that's my interpretation of why it can work so well. But it doesn't always work sometimes. Mm-hmm. There's, you know, it's either just not accessible or there's a possibility of a real backlash, real instability, um, creating an instability in, in somebody's system.
And when it doesn't work, it's always because, uh, you haven't quite met the nervous system where it's at. This is a tool mm-hmm. That the nervous system understands, but this is too much, too fast. The container isn't there, the foundation isn't there. Um, and so really, you know, when we're talking about nervous system in capacity, another word for that would be a container we're building.
Mm-hmm. The container. And when you build a robust container, ev, you know, so much more becomes possible with whatever modality you're using.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. Oh gosh. This is so fascinating. Yeah. And so, um, with, uh, I know one of the things that you mentioned, Caitlin, is that you've got a book that you've got out.
You wanna say more about that?
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, I think you, I'd love to. So, uh, yeah. A couple of months ago, I just really felt inspired to get this. Down in, you know, really a, a, a complete way, um, because there is a, there's a lot of concepts packed in here. Mm-hmm. Um, there's also a lot of misconceptions and, and myths or, you know, just misunderstandings in this area.
And so I was having so many conversations with practitioners seeking help. Uh, and just in the process of kind of explaining what it is that we do, I really got a download of like. How much need there is, and also how many, how much, you know, lack of understanding and lack of education. There really is around some of the fundamentals here.
So I, I put a, what I call like a primer together called rebuilding. Mm-hmm. The nervous system after trauma. Uh, and you know, it, we really start with, um, and a lot of what we've been talking about, kind of catching up on where the conversation. Uh, how the conversation has evolved around an understanding of the role of the nervous system in mental health treatment.
Um, doing a little bit of a survey of some of the, the primary frameworks, concepts that we've inherited and what's still missing there. Mm-hmm. Um, and really introducing this concept of nervous system capacity as, uh, to fill that gap. To really explain the question of, you know, when something isn't something that should be connecting or working, isn't connecting, isn't working, isn't accessible, why not?
And it always, always comes down to nervous system capacity. Um, so that book is, uh, it's really an invitation to, um. Two therapists to orient in a slightly different way towards their practice and towards their clients in general to really mm-hmm. Elicit agency from clients. Um, and then it's also, uh, it's a history of just a brief.
I don't wanna make it seem it's, it's not, I don't wanna make it seem like a big, intimidating book. It's a brief survey of some of the main concepts. How we got where we are, what's missing, and then we just really dive into the nuts and bolts of like, here's how to do it. Uh, and I will caveat that to say, you know, it's, it's an introduction.
Um, there really is a whole art and science to this. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so that's the substance of the work that I do, you know, with practitioners one-on-one is Right. Uh, really getting into the, the nuance of it.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. So, uh, I'm assuming you've got some training programs or some ways in which people can get trained in all of this.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, so I run, uh, foundations of Resilience is the, the three month program that I run with practitioners. Um, and you know, that's something I've been doing really. It came out of, initially I was, I was working one-on-one with individuals with panic and anxiety, uh, and still do today. Mm-hmm. But, you know, really reached a point where I just realized I'm only one person.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Caitlin Rose: There's a lot of people, uh, dealing uhhuh this anxiety. And, um, and the other thing I think that really prompted me was. Uh, a lot of people that were coming to me had, had tried therapy and they were burnt out on therapy and, you know, I've been in, like, I have a deep respect for the practice of therapy.
I've, you know, I continue mm-hmm. Uh, to, to work with, you know, trauma therapists and my own personal life. Um, and, but I had to really educate myself. I had to go out, you know, and I was in a position to do that, to really find, you know, to understand for myself what the modalities are, what the training is, what I need, so I could really advocate for myself.
And I found so many people were coming to me. They hadn't been equipped by the culture at large to really understand what therapy is for, how to engage with therapy. Mm-hmm. You gotta find a therapist that works, can work with you, um, with what you need. And so they just sort of had this like, well, nothing.
I was told to go to therapy. I went to therapy, it didn't work, or it made it worse. And now I am just totally freaked out 'cause I don't, I think I'm totally broken. Mm-hmm. And I'm working with these people one-on-one. I was like, oh my gosh, I really, you know, I just felt this really strong motivation to offer a framework to therapists that they could then offer to their clients.
Mm-hmm. To just overall increase the level of understanding of what we're doing here. Yeah. What are our goals? How do we know if an intervention is accessible? If it doesn't work, how do we troubleshoot it? How do we have a common vocabulary about the foundation we're building? And then if something isn't connecting, you know, make, like we can identify, oh, you need this thing.
And that's not what I do, but I can make a referral, but here's what we did together. Mm-hmm. Right. And, uh, or you know, just being able to really call in the people that need the particular part of the foundation, um, you know, that, that a particular practitioner does. So, um. All that is to say just over the last couple of years I really moved into more and more working one-on-one with practitioners and, and it's been a real joy.
Awesome.
Gordon Brewer: Awesome. Yeah. To do that. Yeah.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Well, well, Caitlin, I've gotta be respectful of your time and just, uh, all, all of this, but tell folks where they can reach out to you and the website and all of that sort of thing.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, so you can find a free copy of the book on my website, um, build Resilience.
Three sixty.com/heal trauma, so mm-hmm. Um, yeah, that'll send you to a free copy of the book and then, and then you can go from there to just find out more about me, um, on my website. I've got, uh, you know, yeah. A lot of ways of, of connecting. Um, so I really look forward to, to hearing from you. Right. And, um, yeah, I'd love to hear your, any, yeah, your feedback on the book.
It's, it's always I feel like a dialogue. It's an ongoing dialogue.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary for people to, to access that easily. And Caitlyn, I hope that we can talk again here soon. This has just been absolutely fascinating and I'm just got, I'm just full of questions now, just about all of this 'cause it is fascinating.
So, but yeah. Thank you. We'll, we'll be in touch about maybe getting you back on and doing a part two of this whole conversation.
Caitlin Rose: Yeah, I'd love that. Thank you so much. Just yeah, for your, for your curiosity and, and enthusiasm for this topic and yeah, for creating this format. I really appreciate it.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, thanks.
Well, thanks and, uh, thanks everyone and be sure to check out Caitlin's things in the show notes and the show summary, um, to find those links. So thanks again, Caitlin.