The Practice of Therapy

Vanessa Lech
Okay, this meeting is being recorded. Okay. Hi, my name is Vanessa. I'm happy to be here on the practice of therapy podcast with Gordon. And we're going to talk today about my transition into family mediation, and how other licensed clinicians can look into this as well. And how beneficial it can be for more people their licenses, mental health clinicians to work as family mediators. Real quickly,

Gordon Brewer
your Yes, I want to make sure I pronounce your last name correctly. It's less

Vanessa Lech
luck. Like le K was call me Vanessa. That's fine.

Gordon Brewer
Okay. All right.

Vanessa Lech
But last time I did that, like four years ago, I would do it multiple times, because I kept butchering everything.

Gordon Brewer
Oh, no, fine, you're fine. Okay. Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so glad to have back with me my good friend, Vanessa lac. Welcome, Vanessa.

Vanessa Lech
Thank you for having me, Gordon.

Gordon Brewer
Oh, yes. And we were just catching up before we started recording. Vanessa has been on the podcast before and we'll have links in the show notes show summary for that previous episode. But the neck, Vanessa has been doing some great stuff with making some transitions in her professional career and what she's been focusing on. So but Vanessa, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and kind of how you've landed where you've landed.

Vanessa Lech
So since 2014, when I graduated with my social work degree, I've worked in some capacity in basically Social Work occupation, which is quite broad. As some of you may already know, I worked with housing people that lacked housing and that were on housing insecure, or homeless early in my career, I did a lot of clinical mental health work as well. At one point, I focused exclusively on working with people that had addiction issues with substance abuse, specifically. And then also all different types of mental health issues from, you know, pretty much the whole DSM five, most of the exam, it did crisis, mental health work. That was very demanding, that's for sure. And then I also did private practice for a few years as well for clinical mental health. So I approached I think this whole spectrum working with adults and children, mostly adults, though, and that's where my focus is currently is working with adults. And so recently, over the last couple of years, I've focused on transitioning into family mediation. And as I was telling Gordon, you know, there's a lot of overlap of using suit utilizing similar skill sets that people learn as a licensed mental health clinician that apply to working with people that are experiencing family conflict, because that's really what it comes down to, when people are going through custody issues in divorce. And also a lot of the stuff we just mentioned, people are struggling with that. And in sometimes, many times it's why they're getting in divorce is because of criminal issues, addiction issues, mental health issues and Nonon.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. And what was, you know, what's been interesting, and again, as Vanessa, Vanessa shared, we chatted a good bit before we started recording one time I was got interested in in going to get certified as a family mediator. And, and I think I'll maybe there are some folks out there that are listening that probably don't realize that licensed therapists and social workers and counselors can get certified in their states to become a family mediator. So you want to talk a little bit about that process, Vanessa, and what that was like for you?

Vanessa Lech
Yes. So I got certified where I grew up, I grew up in the state of Florida to have spent most of my life my younger life specifically. And I practice remotely that way into the state of Florida online since COVID. You know, since 2020, a lot of people have become more accepting and shifting online. I actually did had the opportunity do mediations and training online, otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to do because the courts in the US have, from what I've seen largely transition to some extent online and they're becoming more adapted to that, shall we say they've seen some of the benefits of it. Every single state's gonna be different with the certifications of any credential whatsoever. There's no doubt about it. You know, for example, you know, in one state, I saw that you had to be licenses in your mental health capacity, whatever it is social work, marriage, family therapy counselor, whatever for like five years, they come up with some random numbers, five years practicing clinically, before you could pursue the certification as a family mediator and then you had like three letters of reference is now in some states during 2020. Around that time, some of the requirements were waived for maybe mentorship or maybe rattlers recommendation because of the hardship associated with the pandemic situation. But some states are easier in some states are more difficult. Typically what I've seen is a lot of states require seen a number of states require some type of mentorship where you have to observe somebody mediations, co facilitate so many mediations be observed conducting so many mediations, as well as doing some type of training course, on top of minimum requirements. So a lot of states will require, I mean, I've seen a number of states can say a lot, but a number of them require that someone have a bachelor's degree or advanced degree or a licensed mental health clinician before they can prequalify. And a lot of mediators have all kinds of saying the Gordon earlier to include family are licensed lawyers. And so the system is very much set up, I've noticed for licensed lawyers to very much be able to print walk into the certification over other people. However, it seems that some of the courts at least have seen the benefit of having licensed mental health clinicians work and family mediation, and have set it up to where it's easier for them to obtain the certification over others. So it does vary, but that's kind of a quick overview.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. And what's Yeah, one of the things too, is that I've known like you've been so which you've, you've made the transition really out of doing clinical work into just kind of doing this almost exclusively, is that correct? Yeah,

Vanessa Lech
that is correct. And I would I still have my license everything in time, I could return to practice if I chose to. And maybe in the future, I will, I don't know, not really anything out. But, you know, I feel like this is enough to focus on. I have seen a number of clinicians that have mediation and even arbitration is a part of their clinical practice, as like a side part of it that they have.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, and then you want to say a little bit about how you kind of came to the decision to make that, that transition, because, you know, I think one thing that happens for people is they get, they have kind of this, this mindset that, oh, if I went to graduate school to become a clinical therapist to be do clinical work, then it's not okay for me to switch out of that. And I think that's a, that's a myth, to some degree, but you want to talk a little bit about kind of your decision process in moving into that.

Vanessa Lech
So it wasn't really a conscious decision I made that I said, Oh, I'm gonna stop practicing clinically, I'm gonna start just doing this exclusively. It really wasn't, it was really a natural, organic, kind of gradual transition. For me, that happens. Um, you know, and as I was saying, before, I've worked with a lot of people that were court ordered, because for like, anger management, or some other mental health service, through family court, or criminal court that were also in family court. And so I kind of already had this, like, very clear view of family court, because I was just involved so much with that type of work. And so for me, it just felt like really natural as I transition into it, and the person, one of the people who trained me, um, was really like gung ho, like, oh, you need to do this, you need to do this right now. And so she really got me into it, why even quicker than I would have otherwise or maybe at all, but as far as other people, you know, when it comes to licensed clinicians, or licensed, even lawyers, I'd say, or any type of licensed healthcare professional, I think when people hear that you have that license, because they recognize it takes so long to obtain the credentials. They would wonder why anyone would do anything other than that. Um, but the reality is, when you obtain professional licenses, it opens up potentially a lot of other doors to do a lot of other types of work. You know, what I mean, like accountants that can become forensic accountants, specifically in divorce cases. You know, that's a specialty, that's a niche. And so, you know, I think people are always going to have their opinions, especially if you're outside the industry of what they think you should be doing, but you need to do what's right for you what feels right to you. And for me, this feels right to me at this point in my life, you know, this feels like a real good fit, and that's why I'm doing it. It feels very natural. And so you know, it's about exploring a person's options and seeing what feels good to them at that time. You know, I know a woman who owns a large group practice two locations, and she's involved in mental health clinical work, but also custody, parenting coordination as well as No, she doesn't do family mediation, but custody parenting coordination as well as custody evaluations. So I mean, that's also a niche, and she's known for that she's really well known for it. So you have to do what works for you is what I would say is most important, and just keeping your options open, because in school, I don't know. But everyone else experiences with the people I've talked to, in my experience, they really did a poor job of educating us about options. And reality. After you graduate, it was very narrowly focused on some different therapeutic techniques licensing a little bit, and that was it.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah, I would totally agree with that. And that, I think that is you, as you mentioned earlier, is that we've all all of us, in this field have been equipped with a certain skill set of being able to help people manage conflict. I mean, we're I mean, that's what that's what we do is it's either it's conflict with others, or internal conflicts that we all all deal with. And I think, you know, one thing that I would think is that if somebody were to go into this and really kind of create a whole niche out of it, the marketing part of it would be a little bit easier in that I would think that the general public would say, oh, do I want a mediator that it's a lawyer? Or do I want a mediator that's a therapist, and I think, you know, they're going to the therapist part just sounds a little softer, at least to me, you know, as far as dealing with that, going through that to going through that process? Yeah.

Vanessa Lech
I would agree with you, my, my trainer, one of my trainers actually said the same thing that was their take was that their client base did not want to work with licensed lawyers, they wanted to avoid it, because their clients, many people have heard one session coming through divorce and custody issues, about the negative horror stories of licensed lawyers in the experiences, their friends and family and neighbors have had, you know, losing a lot of money on dealing with a lot of grief conflict, how it's affected their families long term. And this stuff is still happening all throughout the country. And there's a lot of efforts certain people are making to try to change it. However, the powers that be have really kept the system much the same for decades. And there's a lot of rigidity, that's not allowing for innovation, ruin things like legal tech, for example, which can come in and really can change the landscape of how people access legal services, for example. But um, one of the tricks of it, and this is just me, being really honest, is the way it's handled right now in a number of states, because I've talked to people and I've observed and I've seen this directly, is that if a person goes and hires a lawyer outright, okay, ABC lawyer, okay, let's just say whoever they are. They're going to pick the mediator, whether it's a family case, or another civil case. And even though clients are supposed supposed to be involved in these decisions, what's happening frequently is that the lawyer just picks whoever their friends are, that are mediators. So everything's very concentrated to their networking circle, you know, what I mean, is not the same as like, you know, so and so going online and researching their own mediator. And most people don't even know what this is. They don't, I have no idea until they end up in a mediation and even though they're probably still confused.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. And I know, I know, it varies from state to state, but I know just here in Tennessee, at least in, you know, clients that I've had that are going through divorces, most of the judges require family mediation, if children are involved. And, and so it's, yeah. And so again, like you said, kind of the picking process is probably, you know, whoever their lawyer recommends, and then that's what they go with.

Vanessa Lech
Yeah, I was talking to a mediation director in Utah. And that's actually what they were saying was happening in Utah as well. I've seen it also in North Carolina, where I'm currently physically located. And so and I know what happens in Florida, because I've had warriors tell me this much. So that's kind of right across the country, right. Few different states I mentioned. So wouldn't be far from my imagination and same things happening in other states as well. Florida does require mediation for families as well, in general and less before they go to court and less. They have agreed to everything basically out of court, like they don't need to even deal with anything any further. And then they can go to mediation several times before they go to court if they choose to, but they have to go at least once as well. What I've seen, and it is helpful for most people, because they can sit always a part of their issues, if not all of them out of court before they get there. So it can be useful for some. And then also like the parenting plans in the agreements that like I've typed up, there's like basically a boilerplate in there that says, you know, for the courts like to have in there and stuff, basically say that you're encouraged if you have a dispute in the future to work with, like, a parenting coordinator or a family mediator before running off to court. Because the courts I mean, I've never heard of a state where the courts aren't backed up. Oh, you know, yeah. And there are people if they have a child together, where they literally cannot fighting at all 18 years of that child's life, in the courts over you name it. And I've heard of some states with the way some things are worked with, like child support, like if the kid goes to college or something, or goes to tech school, that you could have parents fighting for 2021 years. And that's really intensive, you have a high conflict couple.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And as we, as we all know, it's certainly a service that's needed. And I think we can, you know, those potential clients teach them a lot of people skills, and just being able to know how to self regulate and all of that sort of thing that we get trained in, is therapist, that probably they wouldn't get from a lawyer somewhere. Yeah,

Vanessa Lech
yeah. I mean, well, so with the mediation, you know, I'm really careful, because of the fact that I am licensed to make sure I'm keeping it very separate from my clinical skills, my clinical skills are useful, because you're supposed to be an objective neutral third party. So you really can't really keep that in mind when you're facilitating these things. It makes sure it's not turning into a counseling session. Yeah. Yeah, because you can't act in dual roles is one of the rules in Florida. Like, you can't be an accountant and the, you know, family mediator or an interpreter in the family media, you have to be like one or the other. But I will say, when it comes to just facilitating communication, I believe, and now that licensed mental health clinicians can be very useful in that area, right. And just even the way that people are being talked to and with and made to feel, you know, it's really important that people are, it can make a big difference with certain people, if they feel that they have been heard, you know, instead of just being taught that. Yeah,

Gordon Brewer
yeah, I would totally agree. Totally agree. So to change gears a little bit, and I'm sure people that are listening are, are would be very curious about this, can you talk a little bit about the earning potential with all of this? And that, how is generally set up and, you know, we, you know, traditionally in therapy, we collect a fee for our time? How does it How does it compare with like therapy sessions and that sort of thing.

Vanessa Lech
So it's going to highly depend upon which state you're in, you know, I was looking at the state of Kentucky just recently is like, like a hobby of mine, just looking at all these states and all their different legal systems, I really studying the law is actually a hobby of mine. And I actually, I don't usually say this, but now since we're talking about the law, I may as well, I'm actually working on applying to go to law school. It's not a thing in the immediate right, this second, I really want to go online and really want to go part time, I'm not a traditional student, and never have been, because I'm really interested in the law. That's another reason how I ended up in this situation is because the legal aspect is just very interesting to me. But in Kentucky, you know, I read on their court website that basically, people are lucky to even be earning a full time living with family mediation or mediation period is with me, that sounds like and so certain states and that's a state in my opinion, the way they approach it, that may not be as focused on family mediation as other states because I know for sure in Florida, in Indiana, you know, as an example, there's just couple seats coming my mind people are making a full time living is a full time career for certain people. Um, but what I would say the main differences are several things. I think that you really need to be able to master marketing, in family mediation, if you're going to do that and do that solely and exclusively, of course, you have to have the potential to begin with in the state that you're practicing in. Other things would you don't want to deal with insurance companies because insurance companies invest in right now? don't reimburse for something like this, because it's not health service, you know what I mean? Right? Right. So if you're a clinician next, I know some that exclusively rely upon health insurance companies for reimbursement, then that is me taken totally out of the equation. Um, you know, in the state of Florida, it varies. If you're contracted, which I am with one that circuits, then they have a set rate that they will pay you based upon your contract. For each type of mediation, I'm certified in County and family mediation, so counties like small claims court, and then obviously family, what we were talking about the rates are going to be different. If you're in private practice, the rates are going to be you can earn more than if you contract with the government, which is paying for it because they subsidize mediation in Florida, for people that earn underneath $100,000. There's like, tiered. Um, and so it really depends upon, I'd say, the personality of the person involved. I mean, I heard someone say, once was it, that your value is the value is the strength of your network or network is your is your value, something like that? When it comes to stuff like this, I would say that is really, really true. There really is. But ultimately, you really, if you're really good at marketing, I think that there's a lot of potential, especially if you're one of these states where they're mediation, family friendly, you know, are failing mediation currently, versus states that don't emphasize it as much. One of the mediators I talked to I forget which state it was Kevin Rose, Idaho or Iowa, it was like started that I. And he was saying that they required the courts out there for families to go to mediation at least twice minimum before they could go to court. Whereas Olga didn't have that requirement. He was saying, so it's very state specific. It's very network specific. It's very skill specific. Are you good at marketing? Or not? You know, do you need the insurance networks or not? Because if you have a successful, let's say, marriage, family therapy practice and just making this up, and you're not needing insurance companies for reimbursement because people are referring to you after right, then if you throw failing mediation under that, you know, it, it would be probably beneficial, right. But one of the other things I'd like to point out too, is when you're not working underneath a healthcare entity, and you're totally removed from that, it reduces overhead because the HIPAA requirements increase overhead, they just do. They just do, you know, having to be compliant and all those regulations state and federal, that increases overhead.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, it does. It does. So with the with mediation services, are they generally? Would it be, you know, you were talking about how it's so kind of legal centric, to some degree in some states, kind of could control things. Is it build similarly to, to like a lawyer, you're billed per hour that you spend on it? On a case? I mean, are you charged per hour? Based on how much time you spend on a case? Or is it per session? How is it how's that generally done.

Vanessa Lech
So if you're in private practice in Florida, I mean, you can build what you want, so long as you are transparent about that there's a letter of engagement for that's required to be sent out. And that's basically like an explanation of services, you could call it a contract of sorts, you know what I mean? And it can be yes, it can be built in any way you just named, I mean, it can be. And the fees can be all over the board. But to kind of give you like, for example, the state of Florida example of kind of how drastic things can differ. Like, if you're a county mediator. I mean, some of the county will number county mediators aren't even being paid. If they work for the government, they do it for free as volunteer work for small claims court. So that's like an example of kind of like the drastic range that we're talking about. I don't want to small claims, court county mediation through private practice. So I just do like family. But, you know, the government the rates much smaller than private practice is much higher. Right. So but then the cases you can get are much more complicated, but it can be billed any way under the sun, like you just mentioned, it just has to be transparent disclosed. Of course, every state I'm sure is going to be different as well.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes. So what would it be fair to say that the rates that some person would charge for their time that it was comparable to what you would get in private pay is private practice, or clinical? Yeah, or maybe more?

Vanessa Lech
It depends on what you build, for example, like in private practice, because there's some people I mean, it's just such a full spectrum. Yes, yes. It can be to answer your question. Yes. It can be. Yes. It can be more. Yes. Could be less? Because I mean, there's some clinicians that are like on sliding scale, right? And then we'd be charging $35 for a session. Yeah. I mean, if you're charging that a little, then likely it's going to be more, right. If you're someone who's charging $300, like some clinicians, I know out there do per hour, then it could be equal to that, or could be less depending on whether you're contracting or if you're in private practice. So it can be I mean, for me, I feel like it will be better long term, kind of the big picture. Because, again, like I mentioned, the regulatory compliance, that increases overhead, it just says, Yes, and you know, I'm very comfortable with marketing. And when you're a healthcare entity, I make all these regulations, the type of marketing, the way you market is more regulated, it's different, you know, I mean, versus if you're doing almost anything else, right? So the potential is here. I mean, there's definitely a lot of potential. And I also see a lot of potential for growth, because I don't know if you've noticed, but we live in a real high conflict country. So I think conflict resolution in general is going to be on the rise out of absolute necessity. You know, when I was speaking to someone, you know, mediation director, and she was telling me in a different state, that she was saying, like, even conflict resolution people in workplaces, she could see being on the rise, you know, what I mean, just as an example of the skill set? And yeah, I would,

Gordon Brewer
yeah, right. Right. Well, I think, cabinet full circle around, I think one of the things that a person has to really do is just kind of look at their look at their why of why they would want to go into, you know, whatever, whatever direction they go with their, with their skills, and their training and their credentials, and all of that sort of thing. And I think for you, Vanessa, and, and the little bit I know about you so far is that this is definitely a passion for you. And just, you know, it just really struck a chord for you. And I think that's, that's, that's one of the big decisions I think people need to make. Is this. Is this something they're passionate about? And, and I think it sounds like this is really true for you.

Vanessa Lech
Yeah, and, you know, it's like anything work you do, you know, people that work with children, for example, um, they're very passionate about, I mean, why else would they do it? Right? That's very specific, like play therapy, for example. It's very specific, very passionate about it. But one tip I want to give to anyone looking into this is to make sure because I was just thinking about this, while we're talking, make sure that if whatever state you're in, just make sure you you look up on your internet browser, ABC, you know, if you're gonna look up ABC family mediation, and then that state court system, make sure whatever information you're getting about mediation certification is coming from your state's court system. Because my experience has been so far in my research, the court, the state court systems regulate this. So if you got ABC company saying, oh, certify your state schools, oh, well certify you make sure that the state is approving that because my experience, I had to go in the states and researching, you have to go to a court approved training provider. And if you do not, then it doesn't count for anything, no matter how much money you spent on it. So I would just say, please make sure that you're going to your state's court system website in verifying and calling and emailing whoever you have to that these are the legitimate requirements for your states. You're not wasting time or money.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. That's great. Great advice. Great advice. So well, Vanessa, I want to be respectful of your time. And this was just fascinating for me, and I'm sure the people listening, hopefully find find it that way as well. tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they have more questions and some of the other things you've got going on.

Vanessa Lech
So my website is called divorcing adults.com. There's contact forms on there, as well as my contact information. I'm also really active on LinkedIn. So you can easily find me there as well as the company. Name of the company is diverse mediation solutions. And I'm also on YouTube. I'm really just a Google away. pretty active online. All right. I like the internet.

Gordon Brewer
Yes. Good. Yes. Yeah. That's right. So we'll have links in the show notes in the show summary. So you focus and get back in touch. Oh, well, Vanessa was really great to reconnect and I'm glad she joined me for the podcast I'm sure we'll be talking again

Vanessa Lech
thank you look forward to it bye