Gordon Brewer: Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast.
And I'm really glad for you to get to know today Dr. Phebe Brako. Welcome, Phebe, glad you're here.
Dr. Brako: Thank you so much for having me, Gordon. It's truly an honor.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. And so I'm looking forward to our conversation just about how we can work, you know, change some of our, or modify some of our theories, the ways in which we work with people- Mm-hmm
uh, to be more, more attuned to diverse populations. And so- Mm-hmm ... Phebe, as I start with everyone, tell folks more, a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Dr. Brako: Absolutely. So I am a licensed therapist. I'm licensed in Washington State, Washington, DC, and in North Carolina. You can say I have a thing for the Washingtons.
I've lived in- ... Washington State, uh, for over a decade, love it out here. It's, it's so beautiful. And I'm also an immigrant from Ghana, so I've lived- Mm ... in the US since, uh, 2007, came to college, and have just, I've stayed here this whole time. Mm-hmm. And so the work that I do has really been informed by my experiences just living here as an immigrant, as an international student on an F-1 visa, and also as just a Black woman who's existing in a system that has not always been designed to serve, protect, or provide for us.
So that has been- Mm ... the backdrop of the work that I do, and so it has led me into creating a group practice in the Washington State, uh, T- Tacoma, Seattle area called 253 Therapy & Consult. So we serve, you know, all the different populations that you can think of, and it's been, it's been an honor just watching it grow over the last five years.
Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. And that's, that's, uh, I, I know that's so needed because, uh, I think we tend to, uh, with the work that we do, we tend to just kind of put everything in some nice, neat, little package, but it's not always- Mm-hmm ... applicable to different populations and different people- It's, it's not ... with different backgrounds and cultures and all that sort of
Dr. Brako: thing.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Brako: That is absolutely true, and that is what has led to a lot of the conversations that I have, not only with my team, but I also teach on the graduate level. And so I have that conversation with my students a lot around how can we better serve the clients that we're seeing, because we're seeing also that a lot more people are going to therapy- A lot more people- Mm-hmm
are trying to find therapists who understand them. We're having a lot of conversations about, encouraging people to seek services as needed, and also just trying to make sure that we're opening up the doors, right, and just breaking down some of those barriers that get in the way of people recovering and healing.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, so I, uh, y- of course, got my curiosity up, but I think, uh, probably there are some people that are listening to this that are thinking much the same way, and that this just doesn't quite fit. So-
...
Gordon Brewer: As Esther Perel says, where shall we begin? What, uh, what are the- ... what kinda led you to this, and how did, what were some of your ah- a-ha moments with-
Dr. Brako: Mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: figuring all this out?
Dr. Brako: Yeah. I really love theory. I love clinical theories, and it's one of the first courses that I actually taught as a, an adjunct faculty at Antioch University. And one of the first things that I realized very early, actually, when I was in grad school, was that a lot of these theories were not written for people like me, or they were not written with people like me in mind.
So I think about how we describe symptoms. I think about how we talk about different family systems. Uh, I- I'm a trained MFT, so, you know, systems was the thing, right? Mm-hmm. And I, I think actually that's how- Yeah ... I, I got introduced to you years and years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I think you presented at one of those MFT events or AAMFT- Okay
something like that. Okay. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, so, you know, I'm, I'm in grad school. We're doing clinical theories and, and counseling theories, and I just realized that I, I would always feel this lump in my throat whenever we were describing ideas of family, what family looks like, what a, quote-unquote, "healthy family system" looks like.
Mm-hmm. So that was when the seed was planted, and at the same time, as a graduate student, I knew that I needed to understand these things in order to apply them and also graduate, right? So, so for those who are, are graduate students and are, are listening, there is a time and place for all of this exploration.
We can push back and, and, and bring up some of these concerns that we have, and we also have to be tactical about how we have some of these conversations. So I also want to acknowledge that a lot of the pushback that I have towards clinical theories also is grounded in some privilege in being where I am today in my career- being independent of a lot of these different things, and also, you know, having the, the power and the privilege of being an instructor, right- Mm-hmm ... of, a faculty- Yeah ... adjunct faculty member. So that was what kind of brought all of these things up and helped me really start understanding or exploring why our clinical theories needed some sort of, like- cultural modification, I would say.
Mm-hmm. And
the big thing there is that these theories, these clinical theories were developed from a Western lens, right? And they were developed within Western contexts. And at the same time, our field, it seems, has not really been able to keep up with a lot of the diversity needs that we have as a society, and the ways in which our society is changing, and has continued to change over time.
And so we forget sometimes that cultural norms are going to impact or play a role in the kind of symptoms that we're going to be seeing. So for example, you have a client who is coming to you and is struggling with some decision-making, and as a Western-trained clinician, you're probably thinking, you know, like, "I'm here to empower my client," or, you know, help them with that self piece, and not realizing that for some clients, decision-making is not necessarily a solo thing, right?
Decision-making can be influenced by, or they will probably go to other family members to include them in that conversation because they are a community. So decisions are not made on a solo level. They're made on a community level. And so that client is probably looking for support around being able to hold all of the different opinions that they're receiving, and not just trying to figure out, how do I make this decision, right?
Right. And at the end of
the day, we have to also recognize that, you know, historical trauma and all of these systemic inequalities and inequities that we faced as a society and as a world are also going to play a role in our mental health.
Mm-hmm. So,
you know, how, how do we continue to do this work?
How do we continue to function within our private practices or in our group practices, and forget or not hold the reality that it's not just about our theories? We can't go into this just, oh, this is what, you know, Bowen says, and so this is how we do it.
Gordon Brewer: All right.
Dr. Brako: There's a shift happening.
Gordon Brewer: Sure.
Sure. Can you give us some, uh, some examples of some, uh, ways in which we can augment or change some of our theories? Um, yeah, I'm a as we, as w- we, you pointed out, I'm an MFT too, so I'm really into systems, and I think- Mm-hmm ... uh, yeah, I just, it's, uh, it does make sense that our West- Western ideas of a family system is much different- ... than it would be in other parts of the world.
Dr. Brako: Yeah. How, how do we do it? We need to begin by starting to examine our own worldview, right? Sometimes in, in our classes we talk about our different worldviews and how it shows up in the client interactions. And some therapists, I've realized, have not paid attention, especially those of us from, like, older generations, have not really paid attention to what we call our addressing model, right?
All of our different intersections, our intersectionality, our different identities. And so as a, as a professor or as an instructor, one of the first things that I do with my students is sharing my addressing model, right? I let them know my, my age, my gender, like, all of these different things.
Because we want to have this idea that we're blank slates, but we're not.
We're really not. Right. We're coming into this work with a lot of experience and a lot of background, and a lens that is influenced by our addressing model.
And
if you're not familiar with the addressing model, it's, you know, it's called the Hayes Addressing Model.
You can do a quick search about it. But as you understand your own worldview, it helps for you to focus on your client's worldview as well- Mm-hmm ... so that you can develop some culturally, um, responsive or culturally appropriate, culturally expansive, um, worldviews. And for us, it's also a lifelong commitment to, to, to learning, to understanding, right?
An example of that is we get certified in IFS and we just stay there, right? You learn, oh, hey, this is this is, these are the different parts. This is what we're used to in, in terms of parts, right? Or we get trained in CBT. We're thinking about our cognitions, our emotions. Like, we get stuck in that and we forget that we...
This is a lifelong thing. And so just because we learn these theories doesn't mean that we don't have to modify them or start asking ourselves, "Okay, so if we're going to challenge our client's thoughts, where does that leave room for the reality that my client might be experiencing some systemic oppress- oppression, and is that a pl- a, a place that I really want to challenge?"
Mm-hmm. Or, "Is that a place that I really
want my client to challenge?"
Because then
we're essentially challenging somebody's experience and their lived, their lived experience especially. Right. And so an example of that is really starting to do more research. And I'm also realizing that as clinicians, we don't really...
Research feels scary for a lot of us. Mm-hmm. Right? It feels like, oh, no, that's more of, like, a scientific thing. But if we want people to really respect our field, we also have to get more into the research field as well.
Mm-hmm. We
need to dip our toes into what are the current findings, right?
What are the studies on DBT with diverse populations?
Mm-hmm. What does
that look like, right? When it, when it comes to, to, um, systems theories- Are there any studies that are happening right now? Because we need to be able to keep up with the newer developments, right? EMDR got really popular over, over the years.
Over, I would say maybe, like, over the last decade, everyone is getting- Mm-hmm ... certified. Before you even get certified into s- in, in some sort of modality, right? People talk about IFS and how hard it is to get, you know, IFS certification- Mm-hmm ... and things like that. Before you do any of that, you have to ask yourself what is the current research on this, and how does that research incorporate populations that are not cisgendered white folks or, you know, especially, like, when we look at, like, diff- different clinical research trials, even for, like, medications, you know, things like that, and different modalities.
So we really have to take the time to look at how our theories are integrating or expanding to include populations that typically were not studied in the past.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Dr. Brako: So I think those are, those are some of the, the examples that I can think of. And, and- Mm-hmm ... also, even as we're doing the addressing model for ourselves, that we're encouraging our clients to also do their addressing models, and we're sitting there with them just going through, you know, like, their age, their disabilities immi- immigrant status, uh, race, gender, religion.
Because we need to look at our clients in a more holistic way, instead of just what they're presenting to, to us. So helping our clients also look at some of those identities and look at how there's some intersectionality. And as we're going through those intersectionalities, we start looking at, okay, so if I am thinking about using different CBT techniques, what do I need to be aware of as a clinician when I'm working with somebody who is from a historically marginalized population?
Gordon Brewer: Can you give an example of that? Yeah, with CBT maybe.
Dr. Brako: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, so I love love CBT. Mm-hmm. And one of the reasons why I love CBT, and I know it's kind of like almost anti- Mm-hmm ... uh, MFT because, MFTs are... Anyway, I'm not even gonna go there. No. But you know, exactly what I'm talking about.
Gordon Brewer: I use a lot of C- I use a lot of CBT as well, so I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Brako: Yeah. Yeah. So, so when we're talking about our clients' cognitions and we're talking about the different thoughts that they have about, you know, or the different narratives that they have developed, the schemas they've developed over time, it's really important for us to start incorporating some of those, like, for people who are from collectivist cultures like myself, what are those collectivist values and how are they shaping the things that our clients are thinking about or struggling with?
Mm-hmm. So for example- Mm-hmm ... your client is a professional. They're working in a place where they're really, really struggling, and they just want to leave. They want something better, but they have this fear- And so as a clinician, you're talking to them about, you know, like, "Tell me about what it is that you're
What is the worry there," right? "Well, I'm worried that, you know, I'm, I'm going to, you know, lose my job and I'm not gonna be able to provide and all that. And, you know, as, as a person who has worked this hard, I shouldn't be, uh, just jumping from job to job." And then in that moment, you're asking your client questions like, "Tell me a little bit more about that, and how does your culture play a role in this mindset that you have or this thought that you have?"
Right? Mm-hmm. "How were you raised to look at work and work ethics in your- Mm ... in your culture?" Or so for myself, I'll tell you know, like in Ghana, how do people interpret moving from job to job? What comes up for you when you think about the fact that you might have to go home and tell your, your parents that you have left a job, right?
Mm-hmm. Because we can't just look at it simply as, well, what is going on for you? Or how do you think you're going to, uh, fail? Or, you know, like all of the different thoughts that pe- people have when they're contemplating whether to leave a job or to stay on the job. We're not just focusing on what their thoughts are, what their values are.
We're asking also beyond them. Their family their social circles, their community, right? Mm-hmm. Their, their immigrant community. Or, or looking at, you know, the different circles that they, they role in. Because all of that is going to play a role in whatever our clients are believing. It's not just what's going on in their h- in their mind.
And so starting to explore some of those, uh, narratives around, you know, work and work ethics, those cultural narratives, and how it's going to, to play a role in in the beliefs that your client i- is holding. And also, you know- Mm ... when you think about uh, different like interventions, you have, uh, a lot of us think about mindfulness, and we're like, "Oh, hey, you know, like this is a great way to s- you know, to be grounded," all that.
But we're also not providing, p- sorry, providing any, any, uh, psycho education to our clients around why we're telling them to engage in mindfulness, or we're not looking at the root of mindfulness. If you have a client who seems to be, not really into the mindfulness thing, are you taking a moment to ask, "What, what is going on?
I'm sensing some sort of reaction here when I bring up, you know, taking some deep breaths." Are we putting into consideration our client's needs around their religion, right? Because a lot of people are going to come to us with different religious beliefs, and sometimes their religious b- belief is not having any sort of like religious or spiritual beliefs, but how are they interpreting o- or how are they understanding the different interventions that we're using?
So if you, for example- Mm ... have a Christian and you're talking to them about, "Oh, hey, you know, like you need to start doing some more relaxation and, you know, go out and do some physical activity, and I'm thinking about some yoga and things like that," and you see your client cringing. Instead of interpreting that as your client is maybe like resistant to the ideas that you're bringing to them, have you taken a moment to ask yourself- what is the resistance about?
And also even asking your client- Mm-hmm ... " When I bring up yoga, you seem to not want to try that, and I'm curious about that. I'm wondering if there's maybe some interpretation that you have or some cultural beliefs that you have about trying yoga." And they might just say- ... "You know, I'm a Christian, and I, I understand that yoga is from a different religion, and I'm, I'm worried that I would be practicing a different religion," or something like that.
And so, you know, even asking them, "Okay, hey, so then the whole idea around mindfulness is, trying to make sure that we are staying present. What do you do as a Christian to stay present? How do you in- in- uh, integrate this into prayer?" Or you have a Muslim client- Mm-hmm ... who's talking about prayer as well, "How can you," you have, y- you pray five times a day, "how can you integrate this in a way that fits for you, in a meditative- Mm-hmm
practice for you?" Right? And so you might even use the word meditation, and your client might be like, "Ooh, that's not it." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. "We don't, we don't, no, no, we don't do that." So then what kind of language can you use? Because at the end of the day, if you're able to communicate the purpose of the activity or the purpose of that intervention and not gatekeep, because sometimes, I don't know, when I talk to therapists, it almost feels like they're worried about, like, explaining different interventions to their clients because they might, they feel like their client might not need them again if they explain- Mm-hmm
too much to them. Well, the whole idea is for your client to not need you. Right, right. Right? You want, you want your only, and I tell my clients too, I've told my clients this story for you as well, I want you to get to a place where you don't, you don't need me. You don't need to talk to me, right?
Like- Right ... I, I'm just Phebe. I'm just me. I'm not anything, like, special or anything like that. Mm-hmm. And you live your life outside of here. This is only an hour of your life. Those 23 hours outside of here, super important. So you go- Right ... and figure out how you can do this when I'm not there.
Gordon Brewer: Right. You know?
Yeah. I'm, I'm reminded as you were saying all that of a book that came out several years ago. It's, um, it's called A Framework for Understanding Poverty, and it's written by Judy Payne.
Dr. Brako: Mm.
Gordon Brewer: Is the author. And, um, she was a sociologist and was just looking at the different values that people had.
She used it in the context of different socioeconomic class, classes, I'm using air quotes here, within the United States, and, um, particularly around how people value possessions and what are possessions you know, for people that are, Maybe in generational poverty, whatever that looks, whatever that is, that she pointed out that most of those people tend to see other family members as possessions, whereas as you move up in economic status or whatever it might be your possessions are like your car or your house or that kinda thing.
And, and then up into the, you know, kinda the ultra rich, people seem to s- see their pedigree or their, uh, their name, their good name as being their possession. You know- Mm-hmm ... that's just a small example that came to mind in just thinking about-
Dr. Brako: Mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: understanding- Mm-hmm ... the way in which people see the world around them, Yeah
based on the culture that they came from.
Dr. Brako: Yeah. Yeah. That, that is such a, that is such a great example. I've recently been doing a lot of, um, you know, just reorganization 'cause it's, it's spring and I'm, I'm packing and, and things like that. Mm-hmm. And I'm seeing a lot of things that I've been holding onto, and I literally have my ticket from when I came to America in, in August of 2007, right?
Mm-hmm. And, you know, as I talk to my friends about it, some of them are like, "W- why, why do you hold onto all of these different things?" Mm-hmm. Like, what in the world is that, you know? Like, and imagine if I, you know, I bring it up to my therapist, you know, all that. A- and, and part of it is because I'm realizing that my folks back in Ghana did not have the privilege of holding onto some of this history.
So while some- Mm-hmm ... people might look at it as hoarding, I'm looking at it as record-keeping because for years we were not allowed to keep these kinds of artifacts, right? Mm-hmm. They might look like material possessions, but for me it's my history in America and I want my kids and my, my grandkids and every one of my other descendants that are gonna come my way to have things like that, right?
Right. And because there's a lot of meaning-making around some of these possessions also. But at the same time, I'm also holding the reality of the name too, because I was raised- Mm-hmm ... in a family where the name was very important. And my mom would very often tell me, "You better not go out here and embarrass me.
You know people know me." Right? Mm-hmm. Right. And so it's, it's like, yeah, holding onto like both. So it's, for me it's not even like an either/or or change in status piece, but more of like a, again, different reasons for some of these things, right?
Yeah. So I was just saying that that was one of the things that, that came to, to mind as well.
Yeah,
Gordon Brewer: right. Well, I think too just to, to your point, I think when people come to us is getting really curious about their worldview. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. About why or how it comes to be that they see the world as they see it. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, um, I'm- You know, and I have to be really cognizant of this a lot because I'm ca- well, number one, I'm male, so there's not as many- Mm-hmm
male therapists out there. Mm-hmm. Number two, I'm white, Mm-hmm ... from the South. All of those things have an impact on your client as well. Mm-hmm. And, um- yeah. And so that- Mm-hmm ... uh, and so, yeah going back to what you said earlier, it's just being aware of your own worldview and your own biases.
Dr. Brako: And,
Gordon Brewer: and again, I think taking a curious approach with people is, just goes a long way in helping with that.
Dr. Brako: It really, really, really does. And, and I appreciate you naming that. And, uh, one of the things that I always encourage my students, um, I teach a lot of practicum and internship classes- so folks who are graduate students who are seeing clients, and that is one of the things that I encourage them to do is, you know, name those things. Even for me as an immigrant, if I have a fellow Ghanaian immigrant come to my office to talk to me, I'm naming that piece of, "Hey, we might be from the same place, but I want to recognize that we're not going to, uh, to name that we're not going to have the same or the exact kinds of experiences," because we may- Mm-hmm
have immigrated at different points, right? I came as an almost adult, I mean, legally adult, but I didn't feel like an adult when I first came into this country. Mm-hmm. And, you know, this immigrant may have been, brought here as a child. Mm-hmm. And those are two very, very different different experiences.
And so again, back to the topic of, like, intersectionality and looking at all of our different identities and naming those things and, and saying those things, it, it's such a, a breath of fresh air when you're working with somebody- Mm-hmm ... and they name some of the, they, they name the elephant in the room and make it known that they're not there to really, like, make assumptions.
And I've had- Yeah ... that experience personally with a business coach, actually- Mm-hmm ... who I was, I was terrified to, to work with because he's a white male and- Mm-hmm ... he was one of the very first people that I started working with years ago, and that was one of the first things that he said.
I was like, "Oh, okay, so we're naming the privilege. We're naming all of the, the different identities. We're naming all of the ways in which we're different but also similar. All right, I think I can trust you and I can feel safe." Mm-hmm. And it was such a wonderful experience. And I mean, till today, you know, I, I keep up with him every now and then.
It was, it was amazing. So- Yeah ... we, we do have that, we have that responsibility as clinicians to, to say some of these things out loud, because your client is probably thinking about this- Mm-hmm ... and might even have some anxiety around it. Mm-hmm. And also not just because of who you are, but what you represent, because people are going to have different experiences from- other clinicians, they're going to come into sessions with a preconceived notion, you know, as well, and that's going to play a role in the dynamics that exist in the room, you know?
Mm-hmm. And one of the, the things that I've also noticed over time just in working with different... I've worked with a number of therapists, you know, as with me being the client over, I'm a huge believer- Mm-hmm ... in therapists going to therapy. Absolutely. I will, I think I'm- Mm-hmm ... I'm one of those, like, lifelong therapists.
Yes. You know? So same. Yeah, yeah. Like, clients. And, and over time I even look at different, as, as therapists are, are doing their different interventions in the sessions, I look at the different examples that they even use. Mm-hmm. And, you know, things that they bring up, again, with the assumption that I, for example, seen that movie or heard that song.
So it, it might seem really trivial, but it can play such a role with your clients. Mm-hmm. And it's, it, it almost becomes like a core memory for them because I remember a clinician that I worked with in the past who brought up, "Oh, well, you know, like, in The Brady Bunch," and then y- they're making all these, like, examples or trying to, like, tell me something about it, and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, "Who?
Who's The Brady Bunch? Who- Yeah ... are The Brady Bunch?" But again, it was such an innocent example that this was used, right? And so how do we modify that when we're working with- Right ... the diverse populations? I say things like, "I'm thinking about this show, you know, called This Is Us. Are you familiar with it?"
Yes. Uh-huh. And, right? And then-
Mm-hmm ...
going, using that as my example. Outside and that would be the opposite of, of trying to provide an example with a client and making the assumption that they know exactly what you're talking about because- Right ... well, you live in America, how do you not know The Brady Bunch?
Yeah. I still don't.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Right. I still, I
Dr. Brako: still don't. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Plus- You know, so- Plus your a- your age has something to do with that as well, so yeah. Y- exactly. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There, there's
Dr. Brako: that part too, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so w- we, a lot of times we give examples, and I think what, what has kinda hurt in the past, even within the therapist community, is when different examples or different references are made, or people say different movie quotes or whatever, and, and I say, "Wait, what is that?"
And they're like, "What?" Yeah. "You've never seen blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" And I'm like, "No." "I wasn't born in America. I wasn't raised in America, so no, I don't know." Yeah. "What?" You know? And it seems so innocent, but for people like me, it can be, it can be impactful because in that moment I'm thinking like- What made you assume that I would- Mm-hmm
know this? And why did you not approach me with a little bit more curiosity, and why are you reacting as though, like, everybody should have seen-
Mm-hmm ...
or played Street Fighter?
Right? Yeah. Like, you know, that sort of thing.
Right. It, it just, it, it just feels very ethnocentric in some ways- Mm-hmm
because then I could think about different examples of shows and, and things that I watched or participated- Mm-hmm ... in as a child, and I'd never make that assumption that people in America would have seen- Right ... or watched those things. Right. You know?
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Yeah, no, so something else you said just a minute ago that I think is so critical, particularly when you're working with someone that you know is, is obviously from a different culture or whatever, and then that's naming the elephant in the room.
I can remember, had another interview earlier today, and we were talking about how COVID changed things with, um- Oh, yes ... uh, so many, so many things. But, um, I had, And of course, back during COVID, we were pretty much 100% telehealth. And, um, and I had a person to contact me. This person lived in Memphis, Tennessee, which is the opposite end of the state from me.
I'm in northeast Tennessee, and Memphis is on the other end of the state. It's eight hours away. People think, "Oh, Memphis, Tennessee, you're in Tennessee." Well, it's, it's as far to Memphis as it is for me to Washington, DC, so I mean, it's just- ... that, that far away. But the, uh, the lady that contacted me was Black, and I was just- Mm
blown away by that. And so- Mm-hmm ... we spent a whole session around, okay, here I am, a white, Southern male, and you're a Black lady from Memphis. How in the world did you decide on me? This has got to be- Mm-hmm ... awkward for you. And I can't remember all that we talked about, but- Yeah ... what it did at the very beginning is is establish some really good rapport, in that- Great
you acknowledge the obvious differences in the very beginning and, and- Mm ... and being, like you said, doing a little bit of self-disclosure about, you know- Mm-hmm ... my concern was for her, for her to feel safe. Um- Mm-hmm ... you know, working with a white therapist, a male white therapist. Mm-hmm. And that was- Uh-huh
that was my, my, my biggest concern, which I can't even remember. It's been so long ago, but, um- Yeah ... what her, you know, what the, all the issues were around that. But, um, I love that you brought that up. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Brako: Yeah. We definitely do. And I mean, I, I could give so many examples of, of, the elephant in the room.
And I've, I've worked with clients who even though they're from- Similar backgrounds as mine. There's so many differences, and it gets to be a teaching and learning moment for both of us. You know- Mm-hmm ... I had a client who left Ghana at a pretty early age, and so they're not too familiar with, with, uh, our native languages.
And so one of the things that they ask every time we meet, or every time when we used to meet, is, "Oh, hey, uh, can you start off with a greeting in our language?" And so in so many different beautiful ways it became a language lesson even for this client.
Wow.
Wow ... but people would have probably assumed, "Oh, well, you, you both are from Ghana, and so you're probably getting along," and not realizing- Right
that there is this part of the conversation or this piece where they are, in naming that elephant in the room, that I have a larger ext- more extensive diction of our native language, and they don't. And so I can't even go into the session just making assumptions about that and start speaking my, my language and saying different proverbs because, you know, we're such...
We use so many proverbs, and we have so many stories. We use a lot of storytelling in- Mm-hmm ... in our work. And so I can't even go in doing that because, oh, this is a fellow Ghanaian. They might not even speak my native language 'cause we have hundreds of different languages. Sure. Right?
You know. Yeah.
So, so that is, that is definitely something there.
And even when I, when I think about, you know, back to the topic of modifying theories, I, I also think about how we interpret family and interpret boundaries and interpret f- uh, uh, family connections, right? Mm-hmm. I think about how... I think about the concept of even, like, enmeshment- Mm-hmm ... um, in, in family systems- and how the first time I heard that, I was like, "Wait, what? Like, this doesn't make any sense," because this feels like a very typical family system in my culture- Mm-hmm ... right. Right. Where there's a lot of shared emotions, there's a lot of shared thoughts, and because it's, it's communal. And so I always- Mm-hmm
I was one that always pushed back against that. And at the same time, if I'm working with a family where the system has essentially developed here in the US, it's going to be very, very different because they're not going to have those familial ties that I had because I grew up in Ghana. And so I can't even bring that assumption into our work together.
And
just think that just because I involved my f- my family or my elders in my decision-making or in how I felt about different family members, that doesn't mean that this Ghanaian family here is even going to be doing the same. So again, there has to be that modification, and we have to find that middle ground, and, and the ways in which we do that are going to be through questions and curiosity, and also just putting some of these things out there and just- Mm-hmm
naming them, right? Mm-hmm. Sure. Um, for folks who, who do a lot of, like, attachment theory we have to ... One of the ways in which we have to modify our thoughts around that or modify the work that we're doing and the theory is also looking at what communal caregiving looks like, right- Mm-hmm ... when it comes to a- attachment and, and how do we shape that in a way with our interventions and with our questions to where we're meeting our clients' needs, right?
Right. Looking at those cultural norms around in- independence versus interdependence. What is the role of the extended family even- Mm-hmm ... also? And again, not making those assumptions because you're going to have folks who are going to be from different parts of different countries, and- Mm-hmm ... extended family is going to look very, very different for different people.
Oh, yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Phebe, this is, this is a great conversation, and I've gotta be respectful of your time, and I, I hope- Yeah ... that we can continue the conversation another time. But tell folks how they can get in touch with you and connect with you if they're interested in finding out more.
Dr. Brako: Yeah, absolutely. I am on social media. I like to yap around there a lot. Mm-hmm. I'm on Instagram and on Threads as, uh, @drphebebrako. That's P-H-E-B-E B-R-A-K-O. And I'm also online at www.phebebrako-l-m-f-t.com. And so that's my, that's my website. You know, you can find me on there. And honestly, if you just put my name in Google, something is gonna come up one way, shape, or another.
Okay. Okay. Well,
Gordon Brewer: we'll have those links in the show notes and the show summary for people to get to easily. But, uh, this has been a great conversation, and I'm so grateful for you for being on the podcast.
Dr. Brako: Absolutely. It was an honor. Thank you so much for having me.