The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so excited for you to get to know today. Tanya Dantis. Welcome Tanya. Glad you're here.
Tanya Dante: Thank you so much, Gordon. I'm happy to be here. And you nailed it with Tanya? Yes.
Gordon Brewer: Okay, good. Yes. That's good. Yeah, that's always good to get names right. So Tanya, is a therapist in San Diego and she has developed a method called the RFRA Method. And so we're gonna get an introduction to that and everything that she's learned about putting that together. But as a start with everyone, Tanya, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Tanya Dante: Yeah, I, I, I'm happy to. So, I mean, where to start, right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: Um, I think like most therapists, I probably a lot of my own journey of healing and, and learning about the healing arts, I've danced and moved since I was little, which is relevant because of my somatic. Work, right. So,
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: For me, the body and and expression has been a native language since I was three years old, dancing, and yeah.
In my twenties I discovered the healing arts. I, I studied anthropology, so I, and I've lived in many different countries, so I have had. The fortune to kind of understand culture and how it impacts people and our behavior. And then, yeah, I studied yoga. I studied a lot of different also indigenous and Mexico traditions that helped, uh, shift my paradigm and, and just understand different things about healing.
And then I eventually got my license and yeah, I've been. I've been working with women in circles and for over 20 years and licensed about, fully licensed about six years,
Gordon Brewer: Wow. Wow.
Tanya Dante: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: That's great. Great. Yeah, it's, it's interesting how we all, um, I think the majority of us in the, in these fields.
Land here because of our own stuff, as I like to say. We, we get curious about that and really delve into it. And then really, you know, I think most of us are, tend to be naturally helpers and so we want to help others with what we've learned about ourselves and, and that moves us in that direction. So yeah always love hearing that from people.
Tanya Dante: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like when you find something that really works, you wanna share it with people. At least that's how I feel. Right,
Gordon Brewer: right, so you've, you've developed kind of your own method and so let's start with that and just tell folks about rfra, what that means. And I know that it's related to somatic therapy in some way, or that broad category of, of type of therapy.
So tell us that story.
Tanya Dante: Sure. I mean, I didn't set out to create a method. I just started working with people, you know, and there came a time when I, I just sat down and I was thinking about. What is the common denominator between all these people that I'm working with and how I'm working with them? And I started realizing, one thing I, I consistently saw is that people would come in with a certain symptom, right?
Or some situation. And, and it was almost like, I don't know if you might relate as a therapist or all the listeners, you know, as a, as therapists. It's almost like you start developing an x-ray vision where they're coming in with like the leaves of a plant and you can immediately already see the root.
You're like, yeah. Like mm-hmm. They're like, I don't know why this is happening. You're like, well, it's pretty clear, right?
Right.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, and
Tanya Dante: it, it kind of, all it took sometimes was just like very gently kind of pointing maybe it's, it's this, and they'd be like. Of course, like, yes. And like, it's not like you were telling them anything super new.
They already felt that or, or knew that, but they just couldn't. Mm-hmm. That maybe they hadn't been given permission to fully own the impact that had had on them.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: And so it just felt like it was over and over and over again. It was that similar pattern. And then I would end up doing some sort of like inner child type work of like, yeah, like that was really hard for that little, you to,
Gordon Brewer: right.
Tanya Dante: You know, now you're an adult and you're like, oh, but you know, I have compassion for my parents. But it's like that little kid had no alternative and then it was like. Feeling all these feelings of like, anger and, and grief. So I started, it was like that, that I started noticing. Okay, sure. It's like we go from here to here to here.
And so I developed I started calling it rfra, which is an acronym for root impact. Feel, reflect, and take action. I love it. So, yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Tanya Dante: And then there are like the people who would, after we, they would wanna skip the feeling part, you know? And so it's like, for some people it's like that's an important middle one, right?
It's like the middle F like, it's like we gotta feel these things. Mm-hmm. Or else you're just still intellectualizing it. And then after they feel it, then they could take we could reflect, okay, yeah, I'm really angry, but I'm not reactive anymore. Or I'm not just suppressing and now I can you know, decide I need to set a boundary here.
Or, you know what, I need to speak up here, or I need to. You know what? Take better care of my inner child and I need to mm-hmm. Get her some expressive arts classes because she didn't get to live her art artist dream or, you know, whatever. Action. And then, yeah. And then the last step is actually taking action.
'cause some clients get stuck there. It's like they, they get it, but they don't. Go do the homework, you know? Right. And so it's like this is the, the full method and just Yeah. I putting it kind of names to the things I was seeing.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's, it's interesting how I think most of us that have been doing.
This kind of work for a long time. We kinda get I think all of us develop our own method to some degree in which we, like you said, we see the same kinds of things over and over again and see the patterns and I think we very quickly pick up on the different patterns that people bring into session.
And, um, yeah. So what, what inspired you to kind of put this into, into language so that you could share it with others.
Tanya Dante: Yeah, I mean that's a great, that's a great question. I think, i've gone a therapist that, yeah, that's, I, I, I feel like this is new. I, I haven't really I'm, I'm kind of thinking out loud how, how that happened.
Alright. Well I did go, I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: And somatic experiencing is a, is a, an approach more than like. It's very different from EMDR in that EMDR is like a protocol that people go to and like, kind of have done on them. Mm-hmm. And somatic experiencing is much more like a perspective tools, uh, a way of working with people, a psych, even psychoeducation but there's not like, here's the protocol and I did this on you and we're done, kind of thing.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Right.
Tanya Dante: So I found that some people when they practice somatic experience, and you know how like you become pickier when you're a therapist and you go, yeah, do I found some people don't. Like it, it just could be endless. Like, what am I feeling in my body? I mean, I could just endlessly tell you my sensations are always as long as we're alive gonna happen, and I could just mm-hmm.
Keep going forever and ever. But it's like, what is the point of this therapy if we don't have like a beginning and an end like a container? For some sort of cathartic process here.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah,
Tanya Dante: it's like it needs some sort of, and so I felt like that's, that was one of the catalysts, like I felt like I do, I do take people through a process, like it's not, I can tell when people are, you know, just I wanna see them move through the arc and, and there might be a few different rounds and it's not like you can't go back, but it's like you're giving people a way of working that is empowering to them because then they can kind of go out and live their life.
Also applying this like, oh, what do I have to think about? Like, what's the root and like, how is it impacting me? And like, am I avoiding feeling? And then it's, it's not just so vague that like I have to be one of those therapists that they just come to me forever and ever and ever and ever and depend on me.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, so walk us, if it's okay, kinda walk us through, I don't know, maybe a case example or an example of. How this works with people as far as, you know, talk, talking about, okay, let's discover the root here of this and then, and, and I'm interested too how you came up with that particular progression of those different parts.
Tanya Dante: Yeah, I mean, some of it I feel like is just, it was just intuitive and there's no it's funny be, I'm speaking at camp next month, I guess. Yeah. It's less than a month now at the annual conference. Mm-hmm. And I'm talking on, I'm speaking on this, so I'm like thinking a lot about this and
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Tanya Dante: I, it's funny that sometimes I think the second one impact is how our clients come in. It's almost like how what they're presenting stuff is because it's really mm-hmm. The impact the root has had on their life.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: So impact is kind of easy, right? So let's give it, I have a lot of people who are very high functioning and they almost don't.
It's, it's like they're really, really smart, but they don't really have insight into what's the matter or like why.
Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm kind, I'm gonna kind of think of a composite 'cause I like to not, I, I, I try to be careful, so I'll think of like a composite client.
Gordon Brewer: Um-huh. Sure.
Tanya Dante: Come in, yeah. Um, so let's say this person is, like having issues at work because they keep seeking validation. Like I had, I, I worked at the Meadows and we had a lot of people at. Tech companies like Apple and, and mm-hmm. Meta and all these, and they were like high functioning people and it was that very high functioning like spirit of like overriding their own boundaries and inability to say no and like drive for external validation that got them there.
So, right. Let's just use someone like that.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Tanya Dante: So they were often totally unaware that it was some of their upbringing. Like, so I might, in a session, like at the beginning, like we do, I might just, you know, I'm not even introducing the method. I'm just like kind of getting their developmental history and some sense of like.
You know, what's your life been like? What are your, what are some traits you associate with your mom? What are some traits you associate with your dad? Even just in that part of them, just sharing a little bit about their developmental history. I feel like the X-ray technician and me starts noticing already, like, that was the exact same word they used to describe their mom.
To describe their boss. Right. Or like
Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. And then, yeah, and I guess where I would go with that is just say, get real curious about that and point out, okay, you used that same word to describe your boss. What do you think's going on with that? Yeah,
Tanya Dante: exactly.
And so I uhhuh Yeah. I'm like kind of circling and highlighting my notes. Okay. I heard that. I heard that. Getting curious about it. And then at some point I, I, I do get curious and then I, and then at some point I might be like, do you see any, you know, that's, that's interesting. I noticed that you use that same word, and then you can just see it on their faces.
Like all the bells are like yeah. Like, it's true. You know, and they start making those connections, connecting the dots, and yeah. And so. There might be, when I talk about root, it's not always just one thing or one moment. It, it's really is like plants. Like they might have a few different, or, or many different situations,
Gordon Brewer: right?
Tanya Dante: That all connect to that same. I can't say no because
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: Every time I asked for my needs, they were shut down. Maybe mom was a bully, you know, maybe, uh mm-hmm. Uh, maybe there was a specific incident where something happened and, they expressed sadness or a need and, and it was shut down or dismissed.
Mm-hmm. So we start saying like, okay, that makes a lot of sense, that your ability to say no. Like you had that innately, but it was dismissed.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: And in order to stay connected to those people you kind of started fawning. You became someone who, you know, people please, who, who maintained the connection over reasserting your b, you know, asserting your boundaries.
Mm-hmm. Your needs.
Gordon Brewer: And so how do you, how do you make that transition into getting them to talk about the somatic part and the feeling part? Yeah.
Tanya Dante: Yeah. I'm
Gordon Brewer: making notes here.
Tanya Dante: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Tanya Dante: That's that. You know, I, I, it's really funny. I've worked with people all over the world and I really am finding, I, I, you know, you're the first person, I'm, I'm saying like this on a podcast or something like this publicly, but I find that in the United States there.
Something going on right now where it is really hard to access the feelings, like
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: I think it's part of the coping. There's just a lot going on. I don't know, but it's like I, it's what I'm noticing. It's tough.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: I mean, I use the principles of titration and pendulation. I have some go-to tools I'll share with you.
Mm-hmm. And then I also. You know, there, there's the tricky ones, and we'll talk about that. So the first tools I'll go to that I love, so I'm gonna share, I'm gonna spill my, my, mm-hmm. My, my Beloved Secrets. I talk more about them in the book and everything, but, okay. So I love having people make a playlist for each emotion.
Like anger and grief, sadness, and joy, and pleasure.
That alone. Gives you so much information because mm-hmm. Some people are like, anger, like even just the idea of making an anger playlist. It's just
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, like,
Tanya Dante: right.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah.
Tanya Dante: Yeah, yeah. It's a great it's, it's fantastic and then they, music is like friendly enough that they'll be willing to do it.
That's the first step. So I got this idea from Mama Gina. She's a, she's like a coach in New York. And I, I love it. And I, I borrow it like it's my, you know, I fully use it in my practice. We do swamping. So the next stage of if they've made the playlist is to start moving to the playlist a little bit, right?
Mm-hmm. Like even just 30 seconds of like, anger practice of like, you know, just. Really, you know, air punching, air
Gordon Brewer: kicking.
Tanya Dante: Yeah. Grabbing a towel and ringing it, biting a towel, whatever, like normalizing healthy aggression. Mm-hmm. That to me is the number one most suppressed thing.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Tanya Dante: Seeing, right.
Like people have seen too much abusive anger and they're like, I don't wanna be that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tanya Dante: You see that in your practice?
Gordon Brewer: Oh, sure. All the time. Yeah. And, and it's, uh, yeah, and it's, uh, it's interesting because I did, you know, just thinking about the whole, I don't want to get us too far on the tangent, but just people's ability to access their emotions in a way that doesn't just kind of freak 'em out.
And particularly I think for men, that's really true. I mean, it's just I, I just did a, a video on the site craft YouTube channel that where I talked about why is it difficult for men to access emotions. And I think, part of it is. We're kind of, kind of socially, we socially learn that along the way and that we, I'm saying we, as as a, as a man, but that, okay, the negative emotions, you can't show those except for anger that's socially acceptable for men to show anger, which is part of the problem just going back to what's going on in the world lately.
Um, and so, and so being able to put it in a way that they access it, but it's almost a backdoor kinda way. I love that. You know, through the playlist.
Tanya Dante: Exactly, exactly. Because we're, we're really distinguishing, and I wanna be clear also for listeners, I think you got it. Uh, but it's like there's a real difference between healthy aggression and abusive anger.
We're not talking about, we're not talking about lashing out at anyone. Like this is like you. By yourself or with your therapist, like working on being able to express your healthy aggression, your grief,
Without this, it's like we can't access the joy and the pleasure. It's like a rainbow. It's like all of 'em, you know, it's all our emotions.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So once we access the emotion, what's the next step with everything?
Tanya Dante: Yeah. I mean, I think I, I like that you emphasize this feeling, one, because it is the most important and mm-hmm the hardest for, for a lot of people. Some people right piece a cake, but a lot of people, and noticing which of the ones is harder.
Some people don't, are very uncomfortable feeling joy and pleasure. You know, and it, or, or different parts of your stages of life. Anyway, that's a whole thing. And I think it it's really, we could talk, we could talk a whole episode probably
Gordon Brewer: on Yeah, I'm sure.
Tanya Dante: Feeling right. But yeah, after that comes reflection.
Right, because you know, that moment after you've had that cry that, that it's not the same as intellectually getting there. It's like you have that cry and you're like. Wow. I'm really gonna miss my dad. I, mm-hmm. I really am gonna, I better, you know, spend every moment that we have together. You know, I really wanna enjoy the time we have together.
Mm-hmm. It's very different than an intellectual, and it's also not reactive because another thing that I don't really say, you know, to my clients, but it's like, you know, that. A lot of times when we talk about boundaries or, or speaking up, it can be reactive. Mm-hmm. And, and what's happening is almost like, one way to put it would be like the child part is, you know, just a acting out.
Mm-hmm. And when we're using this method, we're learning to contain our inner child and be like, let's hear what you have to say. Let's hear your anger, let's hear your sadness. Let's hear your fear. I'm gonna take care of it and I'm gonna go speak to this person. It's not like a reactive, let me go tell 'em.
You know, I'm mad. It's like a,
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: Let me first hear my child. Inner child's anger. And then now I'm gonna, in the reflect part that you were asking, what's after the feel? I've taken the information from what my inner child is feeling.
And now I can reflect and be like. Like I would with my own son, like, okay, like this happened at school.
What am I gonna do? I'm gonna go talk to the principal. Am I gonna ask for an IEP amendment meeting? You know, whatever I'm gonna do. But it's coming from an adult place. Right.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Tanya Dante: So that's the key part of the reflect. You're no longer, but you need to let the child tantrum or you need to let the child like fully express, and then you're in the reflect and once you know, you take action.
That's the
last
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, right,
Tanya Dante: ed, right? Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And, and, and I, I would, I would think, um, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think like taking action would. Might be as simple as, okay, learning to practice more mindfulness or that sort of thing. Yeah,
Tanya Dante: a hundred percent. I'm glad you said that. Mm-hmm.
Because I, I, something I caveat in that last one, action is baby steps. Because people wanna be like, well, now I'll sign up for a marathon and I'll train every day. I'm like, no.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: Let's make it like a, okay, one time this week for five minutes. I'm gonna go for a walk. You know, like you, let's make it accessible and let's break the chain of that perfectionism and then the cycle of self-sabotage.
Let's like make it super accessible.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Tanya Dante: And then you can rinse and repeat,
Gordon Brewer: Uhhuh. Right, yeah. Well, Tanya, I've gotta be mindful of our time, but one question I do have, in working with people to help them learn to self-regulate what they're going through, what, what kind of approach do you use for that?
Because, uh, to me that's really tied to kinda somatic way of thinking. Yeah,
Tanya Dante: sure, sure. And I wanna kind of go back because I love tying up loose ends. And I wanna just uhhuh, if I may, real quick, we were talking about a case and kind of how it applies, and just really quickly mm-hmm. Close that loop. So
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, sure.
Tanya Dante: For us, just like, okay, so those, you know, high functioning tech people. Often, you know, when we make that connection of like, oh my gosh, my mom, my dad, I was always looking for my dad's validation, never got dad's, then they start to feel the grief of that and feel the anger, and in the reflect section it's easy for them to see.
Okay. Yeah. My boss is not my dad. I cannot be getting validation from my, from my boss. It's not appropriate.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: How can I give myself validation? You know how mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We might come up with a few practices for them to take into their day, into their week, and you know, it's about implementing them and some accountability of how's that showing up?
And I've had people completely shift their relationship at work and. You know, just become leaders at work. Mm-hmm. Because it's like they're no longer, they, they get the assignment, they're no longer seeking the validation. It's like they step into their adult self. Mm-hmm. Um, and then I've had other people who, who realize, you know what, this environment is not for me, this work environment and.
It's not gonna work if I start becoming someone who's gonna set boundaries. So I'm gonna have to think about changing companies and mm-hmm. They start the job search, you know, it's, it has lots of different possible scenarios. I wanted to just wrap that kinda what it look like. Sure. And then as to regulating, I mean, I think I, what I love about somatic experiencing is the titration and, and pendulation, I think making people aware.
Again, it's like that root impact, like what does regulation feel like in your own body?
It's different from my body, from your body, from their body. It's like, what does it feel like? And helping them start to make that connection, like,
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm. Okay,
Tanya Dante: so this is how I feel like my, I can feel my feet on the floor.
I can feel my shoulders relaxed. My heart starts to, my heart rate starts to slow down. My breathing goes all the way to my belly. That's how I feel when I'm regulated. Oh, and then when they start talking about that thing, that's stressing them out, slowing them down and notice how you're feeling now.
And then they start to notice like, okay, yeah, like that tension in my jaw. Okay. So the, the work is to start to notice sooner. When you're going into that, you know, where you are on the spectrum, not about shaming or or judging or anything, but for you to, to be aware, like, okay, I'm getting dysregulated. And the famous Deb Dana polyvagal thing is like catching yourself earlier on the ladder.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Tanya Dante: It's, it's like the name of the game is getting savvier or like more it becoming more facile to like notice. Where you are and,
Gordon Brewer: right, right.
Tanya Dante: And to notice that you're relatively safe right now, right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Tanya Dante: Like you're looking around like, okay, like the door's locked. I'm in this neighborhood.
I'm okay. Like,
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Tanya Dante: In a nutshell.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. That's great stuff. That's great stuff. Well, uh, Tanya tell folks how they can find out more about what you're doing and the book and all of that sort of thing.
Tanya Dante: Sure. So my website is tanya dantes.com. T-A-N-Y-A. And then yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll see it on the phone notes and then mm-hmm.
Um, I'm the same name in Instagram and my book HA is out on Amazon called The Power of No Reclaiming Boundary Safety and Your Voice Through the RFRA Method.
Gordon Brewer: Ah, wonderful, wonderful. And like you said, yeah, go
Tanya Dante: ahead. Sorry. I was gonna say, and if they're at the camp conference, come say hi.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Say
Tanya Dante: hi.
Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Good, good. Um, a as you mentioned, we'll have all these links in the show notes and the show summary and for people to access 'em easily. So, Tanya, this has been a great conversation and hopefully we'll be able to talk again soon.
Tanya Dante: I'd love that. Thank you so much for having me here.