The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Okay, if you'll do the work. Hey, I'm

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Brandon. And I'm happy to be on the practice of therapy podcast and and today we're going to be talking about my journey to working with trauma with a from a clinical focus.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcasts. And I'm really excited for you all to get to hear from Brandon Shern in brain and hopefully I'm saying your last name correctly. You are good, good. Well, I'm glad Glad you're here. And I'm looking forward to our conversation and some of the work that Brandon's doing. But Brandon is a start with everyone. Why don't you tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Okay, well, I'm, I'm Brandon Shern. I do. Wow, how I landed where I am, I have a lot of it's like a zigzag. I started in, in, in law enforcement and then landed in, you know, mental health. And within that there's a lot of gray and a lot of other crooked paths. But you know, so it wasn't a straight line to me sitting where I am with people. But my clinical focus over the years I've worked, I've been fortunate enough to work with a lot of people, a range of diagnoses and disorders. But the one that for me that has been perhaps the most enthralling is clinic is trauma, you know, primarily because, you know, we say trauma, but that's such a vague term, right? We say trauma, but that can mean anything. But the thing that I love about trauma work and working with people who've, who've experienced traumatic events, is it's so complex, and it's one of those, it's kind of one of those areas where people just wrote off and said, you know, you're gonna forever deal with this. And for me, there's a, there's an inner, I like to I'd like to call it my inner combatant, like, that drives me to say, Ah, okay, you say this is this is impossible to fully deal with. Challenge accepted. And so I began to dive in. And so, you know, I went down a lot of roads, a lot of training, you know, forward facing trauma, you know, all kinds of, you know, trauma, clinical trauma trainings and, and things like that, and they are good, but it just, there was always for me, there was something missing. When when I talk about with all of the training, not taking anything away from him, because I stand on the shoulders of those giants. I just bring my little my holistic focus to it. Yes. And approach it that way.

Gordon Brewer
Yes. That will this is fascinating to me, because I'm not there. A lot of us out there that work with people that with trauma in your was something you said before we were get before we started recording just that kind of the approach, and I'm paraphrasing here has been that we teach people how to kind of white knuckling through the trauma and the triggers. Yeah, it's Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Yeah. So it's, you know, what I've seen a lot is, is, let's cope. And so a lot of people will come to me and they'll say, give me some coping skills. And, and it It baffles me specifically when I because I always ask, inquire about whether or not somebody has been in therapy before. And when they say yes, and so I know, that's kind of, you know, coping mechanisms and coping skills is what's taught a lot. And so I'm like, Okay, well, if you've been in therapy, and you've been in therapy for three years, you have a whole bunch of coping skills. And so I started seeing this trend, and I'm saying, Okay, well, what's missing? It's not the coping skills, they know what to do like, like you were saying they not a white knuckle. And I look at it as like, you've been taught how to hold your breath as the waves of life pass you over. But you haven't really been taught how to swim in the ocean of that. Right? And there's a difference. There's a difference with it for me, because if you hold your breath, while you're in the water, the only thing you're gonna do is walk and you're going to stay in a safe space, right? So either that's letting the water come up to your neck or up to your breastbone or whatever. But the moment that the waves start, you know, you can splash and play and it's like, yeah, I'm out here and I'm doing real good stuff. But you get to the wave starts coming, or you get to a point where the water level now is, you know, up against your nose. OHS in it's kind of going you retreat, right? You try to get back to safer ground. And you don't learn how to swim like that. And that for me, that's what a lot of coping skills become. It's like learning how to hold your breath. And you know, and in that sense, it's this I'll always be experiencing trauma out, are always in. So I say, Okay, we got to come from a more of an empowering position to help people kind of navigate this. Yeah. And that's, that's how I ultimately landed on the five things. And it's, you know, trying to summarize it in a way to give hope, while at the same time, because if I can instill hope in a person, when we start working, they're going to say, oh, okay, I know. All right. So it's going to affect me different. And we can get into that and the man.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, so yeah, that's fascinating. And what I'm, what I'm, you might have already thought of this, but what I'm hearing from you is maybe even the we're on the, on the crux, or on the edge of a new model being developed here.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Yeah, something like that. I thought about it, but you know, I'd be it's like, it's one of those things. For me, it's like, I have to, I'm learning how to get out my own way. If I'm gonna be honest, I'm running not to get out of my own way, and to not hold myself back. And, you know, and that comes from some stuff and, you know, some things that, that I had to work through. Right. You know, so giving myself more permission as well.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes. And I would, I would say kudos to that, because I think, I think you're, you're certainly capable of it. So but anyway, so let's jump in, what are the five things?

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
So I will, I'm gonna read them really quickly. And then you can whichever one stands out to you the most that you want to dive into, we can go from there. So the very first one is understanding that trauma is an emotional response, following the experience of a distressing event, right. So it's your it's the emotional response to an event to an experience that is distressing for you. Number two, is your response to the experience often determines the severity. So understanding it's an emotional response, and that your response to the experience determines the severity. Number three, is everyone experiences traumatic events differently. And there's, you know, there's a lot of layers to that. Four, is not all experiences of trauma require a diagnosis. And in that came from, you know, a lot of people try to seek these seek out a reason or a thing to point that that says, This is why. And then five is where the summation were, you know, it, it was going back to where all of the models that I was seeing really wasn't, it wasn't complete. And this is the stains from traumatic experiences can largely be erased. Stage from experience, the traumatic experiences can largely be erased.

Gordon Brewer
All right. Wow, this is great. So I think one of the things that you hit on is in you might maybe one question is, that comes to mind is just thinking about number two there. The response to event determines the severity. And, you know, I think what comes to mind for me, in your experiment, you expand on this is when we're faced with something traumatic, or amygdala either causes us to fight, flee or freeze. Right? Absolutely. Right. So absolutely. So yeah. So how is it that people experience it in different ways? And what what do you what what has been what you've learned about this and working with people?

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
So the so the response is tied to the perception. So if, if I if I respond to an experience, from the standpoint of I've, I've been a victim, and I stay in that victimhood, my response my view, is I'm a victim, and I'll always be a victim. And so now everything is a real victim. isation. So, you know, so that kind of speaks to the clinical side of it, the trigger where you avoid the triggers and you write, so that's a response to the event. But if you understand that, okay, I had no control over that event. Right. Most you know, most of the time We really don't when, when an event is traumatic, it's outside of our hands. But it's so it's not that it's focusing on how I respond to it, I don't have to let it ruin my life, I don't have to let it continue to be a dark cloud that hangs over me as I'm walking in, and I'm trying to do things. And, and that, if you understand that the event, your response, it may have clouded your judgment. But that's the filter that you use. And so if every future experience comes through that same filter is dirty, and so you don't have a fresh experience. So we this is how we start daisy chaining. And things become, you know, kind of, you know, rack and stack or it becomes layered, very, very layered. And, and so yeah, so it's what you do after the fact that impacts the intensity. So if you, if you if you haven't experienced, but then your immediate goal to avoid, like you were talking about the amygdala, and you never allow yourself to integrate that experience, then you're going to constantly be that Charles Duhigg wrote The Power of Habit. And he talks about in that book, how when when we have a reward in response to a stimulus, that that behavior that triggered the reward gets strengthened. So if we avoid, and we get the reward of not having to deal with whatever that is, right, so we get an immediate kind of release or relief or reprieve from that event, then I'm more likely to engage in that behavior. Because in past time, that's what worked. And that's where, and that's where I've noticed a lot of coping skills kind of fall flat. Because it's dispensed, I jokingly says dispense like pears, right? We dispense it like pears and it's here, do this, do this, do this. And we never, we never give the other side of it. It's do this while you learn how to write this. So the coping skill becomes the flotation device that you use while you're learning to swim. And then once you are confident, then you take the flotation devices off, and you say, Okay, I'm comfortable enough to swim. And I now I can navigate these waters a little easier.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, can you give us an example of that? How that how that might look for somebody?

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Okay, so let's say you've been, you've been in an accident, right? You've been in what we call a motor vehicle accident. And that's, you know, that's one of the things that we checked off on the traumatic experiences kind of checklist. Okay, if you, because of that event, and you were the driver, you avoid getting in the car ever again. You've just minimized your ability, your mobility, all kinds of things, you've put yourself in a box. Right now you become dependent upon others, if you can have you retrain the amygdala to not experience the being behind the wheel, as this is going to lead to a car accident, then you do it in a way that kind of lessens the anxiety that is associated with that stimulus, that stimulus being driving. Right. And there's a number of ways you can do that. So, you know, from visualization exercises, to, you know, saying and experiencing that, that was a one off, and it's not necessarily going to happen again. Right. But it's the filter that you have to change out. That one experience doesn't equate to, it's going to happen every time I get behind the wheel.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. So what what are you finding that works and helping people change the filter?

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
I'm leaning into it, leaning into it. So because the natural inclination, and this is how you kind of help retrain the amygdala, when you the the amygdala is designed to keep us safe, right? So it has the ability to override all rationale, you don't think about it, you. You don't think oh, that car is coming and it's looked like it's going to drive up on on the sidewalk? Should I stay or should I stay where I'm at? Yeah, if you do that too much, you probably gonna be land on the pavement, right? So it has the ability to over override the rationale or the prefrontal cortex. So in learning and retraining, you have to lean into it. Learn how to lean into that anxiety and say okay, what is it about this situation, not not the prior stuff. What is it about this situation that is creating the the concern, the fear the wanting to avoid? And now, you know, and while you're doing that you might employ some coping skills, you might employ some 54321, you might employ some grounding, but if you just ground yourself, and you don't say, and you don't experience or say, Okay, what am I? What am I grounded myself from? Then you're not integrating. You're not challenging the thought. Right? And it kind of so it's kind of some incorporation of, of cognitive stuff in there where you're questioning automatic, or those automatic thoughts, but it's leaning into it, which is the weirdest thing for people. Because the you're you're buying, you're working against the natural inclination of the human right.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah. And that. So what have you found that helps people do this in the moment? Because it seems like I read or heard somewhere, that the amygdala response 10 times faster than the, than the frontal cortex can can even comprehend?

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Yep, it does. It does. And so the so the thing is, and this is where I blend my my prior law enforcement, training, and right, so a lot of the time, we are taught to try to avoid that the reminders of a thing. And I push against that, because if you do, then you have nothing, you have no basis to really determine how you're going to respond, right. But in law enforcement, when you do a traffic stop, or you're responding to a call, we're always thought to, we're taught to think about the possible worst case scenario, and what you might do in the event of, right, so in the event that I experienced this, I can do these things. And now what you're doing is you're you're taking the automatic response, and you're kind of turning it on its head, because now you're incorporating, you're integrating things that you can do to, to make it so that you don't run away from it. Right? Same, you know, same thing with firefighters, right? Like you gotta be really, really brave to just run into a fire. That's not me, which is why I wasn't a firefighter. So it's that thing. So it's, it's taking that and saying, okay, so you're running scenarios, and part of what I do in a session, is I create safe emergencies, I create safe for emergencies. And so I'll do things not necessarily that creates maybe a trauma reminder for them. But we know that irritability and irritation is one of the outworking things, right? Where your behavior you have, maybe you have a shorter fuse, and so I can integrate some of that frustrate you a little bit, okay, what are you going to do? How are you going to respond? So this is, so it creates, it can create, if you're not careful with it, you can create and rupture a whole bunch of relationships. Because, you know, because most people come to therapy thinking with the idea that this is going to be a safe space for me, and it's going to be sterile. And it was specifically when you're doing when you're working with trauma and traumatic experiences, the sterile environment can create a false sense of security. So you can do the coping skills, you can do the breathing, you can do the grounding, but you have no idea how it's going to work when you're in the moment, which means you don't give your you don't give your prefrontal cortex anything to work with. So the amygdala is going to kick in and do what it normally does. Which is you know, get you out of harm's way, by any means necessary. I tell I tell folks, when you know, it's like it's like that being dropped into the Amazon. There is when it's when when a survival was there, there is no friend only foe. Everybody is against me. At that point. It's not about oh, I'm sorry. No, it's like get out of my way. Right? Is that I gotta I have to survive this. So everything everything is off the table, right civility and all of that stuff. So given the prefrontal cortex, something to work with, can help in terms it can help kind of stunt the the activity of the amygdala.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah. So there's, there's some there is some credence to the value of kind of exposure therapy to some degree in that in that traditional sense. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
And it's just, you know, before we even go through before I even dive into anything, it's, it's kind of preparing them for what can come. And that's where even with the, you know, I will say, Now say I might say some things that's gonna frustrate you, I might do some things that's going to irritate you, I'm okay with that, I need you to be okay with that. Because if we're going to do the work, the only way to do the work is to have in the present. And this This is really from a lot of my a lot of my training. And my theoretical orientation, which is, which is Gestalt, where it's dealing with is dealing with things in here and now. And too often we try to deal with things in the past. But it's difficult to do, because you're talking at it, you're not bringing it into the you're not bringing it into the now and saying, Okay, this is the thing that I'm struggling with about that situation. And you can insert whatever trauma experience that you have there. And then we talk about how to deal with that. And that's, and that goes to point five, where where I talk about the stain of it can largely be erased.

Gordon Brewer
Yes. Yeah. Tell us. Yeah, tell us more about that.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
So. So it's, it's that that's where the hope is infused. Right. And that's where empowered empowerment comes from. It's, it's understanding that you don't have to live under the cloud of that thing. Whatever it was, right? We call it post traumatic stress for reason. But you have to get into your brain that you are not experiencing that anymore, you might be dealing with the effects of it. And you've creatively adjusted to life to make sense of it, to survive or to, to, you know, to adjust in a way. But the problem is when you continue to stay that way, when there's no longer a need. And it's getting, it's taking it from the past into the now. So that you can say, Okay, this is not, this is not something that I no longer need to respond to in such a way. And that's how you begin to reduce, remove the stain. The one issue that came from that there was a point of time where, where, you know, tattoos were thought to be permanent, and not able to be removed at all. And, but then I had some tattoos on my neck on I have one here and one here. And I was able to get them removed. And there's a in the so the only way a person might know that there was tattoos is if I tell them because the ink is is the ink is gone. Right? There's some scarring that you can see from where the ink was, but it's not fully present. And so most people only know if I tell them. And that's kind of that's the basis of, you know, because a lot of people talk about the trauma experience being a tattoo. I've gotten tattoos removed. So I think we can I think we could translate that to these trauma experiences as

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. You know, one of the things I've said to clients is, and I think what your, with your with your five, five things you hit on this, it's really training your brain, how to respond to the amygdala doesn't know the difference between danger and difficult. And so it's training your brain, how to respond to difficult situations. Without it going being a dangerous situation.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Yes, yes. And that's the thing and it, and it pairs with this personal maximum of mine, and I kind of talked about it a little bit. It's you cannot control how life happens to you. You can't control the events that happened to you in life, but you can control how you happen to life. And that's the response. And it takes personal responsibility for that. So I don't you know, and I get really hyperbolic with people, when I say, if you punch me, I have, that doesn't mean that I have to punch you back. I can choose to do that. But that's a that's a personal accountability, that I'm saying, I want to do this. I don't have to I have the option to not do it. I may, you know, because, you know, sometimes people sucker punch you so you may not be able to stop it. But you can control whether or not you respond. And that's just saying what are you wanting to do in these types of situations?

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. And that's the empowerment right there.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
Yes, yes. It's giving you back the choice to say I have I have the ability to say whether or not this thing continues to run my life. It's scary though. Because Then you can't you, you can't stay in that space of victim, you have to take responsibility for it. And sometimes that's where, you know, it's from what I've seen a lot of people are afraid of that to come and say, I'm going to take responsibility for this stuff. I'm going to take responsibility not for the, I don't take responsibility for, you know, for being raped to being shot or being robbed, or, you know, being in a car accident, if it wasn't my fault, you know, being T boned or whatever. I'm not going to take responsibility for that. But I'm going to take responsibility for the things that I do after that. And I'm going to not view it as Oh, well, the world is a is a scary place. And I need to walk around with with bubble wrap around myself.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Oh, yeah. This is all truth. It's all truth. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, Brandon, I've got to be respectful of your time. And I hope we can continue this conversation again. Absolutely. I think you're onto something that is really good. And what, what what's cool about this, just as an observation is you've taken the stuff that we know about trauma and how it works in the brain and all of that, and put it in a way that is accessible to people.

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
That's what I want to do. Yeah. And thank you for thank you again for for allowing me on on your platform to speak to your audience and all of this stuff. Because it's it's important. So

Gordon Brewer
yeah, so how can people get in touch with you if they want to connect with you? Oh,

Brandon Shurn, Ph.D. LCPC NCC
I'm on I'm on Instagram, Instagram and I am holistic counseling, I'm on YouTube at em holistic counseling and, and I release videos, I call them weekly doses of empowerment. So you could just go to YouTube and search em or empowerment, holistic counseling, and you'll see me on Instagram, it's the same thing. I do this kind of thing of small dose and for those so I released small doses on Instagram and like a rail or something, and then I'll have the full dose on YouTube. And then if you know, those are probably the best ways for people to contact me or via em holistic counseling is my website.

Gordon Brewer
Okay, okay. Well, we'll have links in the show notes in the show summary for everybody and thanks, Brandon for being here. This is a great conversation. Thank you.