The Practice of Therapy

Kiana & Andrew Joyner The Practice of Therapy Podcast
Gordon Brewer: Well, hello folks and welcome again to the podcast and I'm really happy for you all to get to know today, Kiana and Andrew Joyner, uh, who have joined me to talk about doing teen couples counseling, which I think is gonna be pretty interesting stuff for most everybody. So, Kiana and Andrew, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Kiana Joyner: Yeah, go ahead.
Andrew Joyner: Sure. Well, I'm Andrew Joyner and I'm a certified professional coach. A wife Kiana is a mental health therapist. And we started our practice a couple of years ago. Kind of had a long journey to, to get to where we are. But we ultimately, uh, came to the decisions, do couples work based on a earlier venture that we started was a YouTube channel back during the pandemic.
And so we really enjoyed doing that and but we felt like we really wanted to do direct. Client work. My wife was already a therapist, so I decided to go and, um, become a certified professional coach.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Joyner: Uh, and we decided to do a joint venture together. My background is actually in human resources.
I've over 15 years of corporate hr. I still work in that field today. Um, so I get to leverage my coaching skills, you know, outside of our practice as well. So. Why don't you share a little bit about your background then?
Kiana Joyner: Yeah, so I'm Kiana, um, been a therapist for over 12 years. Um, started in the addiction and domestic violence and with young men in the correction field, and then transitioned to working with older adults and now we do couples therapy and I also have individual clients where I focus on high achieving women seeking more fulfillment.
So we have kind of a whole combo that we're bringing to the table.
Gordon Brewer: Right, so I'm curious, how did you all land on doing this as a team approach? I know you mentioned you had kind of the like we all did, had to shift gears during the COVID stuff, but, uh,
Kiana Joyner: yes.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So how, how has that come? How's that all that come about for you guys?
Kiana Joyner: Yeah. So it really started as something, as a foundation of our marriage where we said, we are a team. That's the foundation. Everything we do is as a team.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Kiana Joyner: So, uh, we. Like he said, started the YouTube channel. We did some we're also wealth certified wealth educators and we did some of that work together, helping families and couples manage their household finances and get out of debt.
And so we were always doing things as a team and I think people saw that chemistry and the YouTube channel. And we, as the Andrew said, we wanted to do more direct work with people, so we thought. Hey, this is a, a great way to do it. I'm already doing therapy. You have your coaching certificate. Let's still keep that foundation of teamwork and, you know, take that into the couple's work because a lot of times, you know, couples, especially those that may not feel as comfortable working with a single person, sometimes having two people in the room mm-hmm.
They may feel like it's balanced or just different perspectives that can be offered. So we thought it was just a unique offer to be able to approach our clients from that angle.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah. And we noticed that there wasn't very many couples doing this type of work together outside of maybe like the church environment where you might do couples counseling with the pastor and his wife or something along those lines.
Um, there's definitely other couples doing some of this work, but it, it's. We're definitely in the minor, in the minority in terms of couples, married couples doing, um, joint therapy together.
Gordon Brewer: Well, I've just, I was reminded of, you know, probably one of the most famous couples therapy couple is, uh, the Gottman's and um mm-hmm.
But I don't ever recall them doing work with couples together. Doesn't mean that they have it, but, um, yeah. I, I love that. I love that perspective because I think it does help disarm things a little bit, probably for couples to see that you've got, you're just having a conversation with another couple, really.
Mm-hmm. And, and helping them navigate all the ins and outs of, of couples work.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah, I think it brings the relatability aspect
Kiana Joyner: right.
Andrew Joyner: And even though, you know, she's professionally trained, I have, professionally trained as a coach. We also can bring our practical experiences to the table so we can, we can understand, from an experience perspective what these couples are going through.
And at times even share some of the challenges that we've also had that might relate and how we navigated some of those waters using the very skills, um, and concepts that. We share, uh, with our couples.
Kiana Joyner: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Joyner: So it's kind of like a three-tiered, uh, you know, uh mm-hmm. Piece where we have therapists sharing, they have a coach, and then we also have our practical experience of being married.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right, right. And you've got the background with the financial management, because that's always a hot topic within couples work, is how you manage your finances and, you know, it's usually right. Money, sex, kids and in-laws are usually the big, yeah. Big, big ones that people come bring to the table.
Right, exactly. Yeah. For sure. What are, yeah, so what, what as you all have started doing this joint approach, what are you finding are kind of the main issues that people are bringing to you? You know, coming to you as a couple.
Kiana Joyner: Yeah. The number one is communication issues. Mm-hmm. I think it's realizing that that's the foundation for all other issues that they're bringing.
So if there's challenges with intimacy, it's a lack of communication and emotional connection. If there's challenges with families or blended families, still lack of communication. If it's a challenge. Expectations or role definitions? Communications. So, uh, we really hone in on those communication skills and helping people to realize how they can be more clear.
In their communication. 'cause many people think they're clear and they think they're, making sense to their partner and that's just not the case.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah. Right.
Kiana Joyner: Um, so really providing that clarity there is huge.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah. Yeah. When we work with our couples, we look at it from a perspective of. There are skills that we need to develop
To create a successful marriage, a successful relationship.
Kiana Joyner: Yeah.
Andrew Joyner: Um, and communication is ultimately a skill. It's not just a character trait, you know what I'm saying? It's not something that you put on a dating, you know, profile. Uh, there's actual legitimate skills that are needed to make sure that when we communicate it's effective
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Andrew Joyner: That we walk away with shared understanding. Right. And that we have the opportunity to acknowledge and validate our partner's feelings while also aligning on the logistics of the fact,
Gordon Brewer: right?
Andrew Joyner: So we really lay out for our couples a series of things that are. Important to do when you are communicating with your partner, uh, to ensure that when you walk away from that engagement, you both were on the same page and were moving in the same direction.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Joyner: Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Where, where do you guys find that you get most of your referrals from? Or, I'm sure that was, has been a, a thing like most practices, you know, get developing those referral sources.
Kiana Joyner: Yes, honestly, it's been Facebook
Gordon Brewer: interest, Facebook
Kiana Joyner: groups. Um, there's a lot of, uh, you know, kind of focus groups on Facebook, um, where it's maybe women.
For me it's like women focused groups in like local areas. Getting into those. 'cause it tends to be for couples, you know, the woman is. Looking into it and finding it. And sometimes if it is a heterosexual couple, then sometimes dragging the guy in. Um mm-hmm. But I find that in those groups I'm seeing people posting, Hey, looking for a couple's counselor, you know this.
So people are posting those things. So then we'll just respond and that's where we've gotten a ton of referrals. There's also some professional, like healthcare professional groups searching for those in your area. And getting in those, especially if you have a certain niche that you really hone in on.
Andrew Joyner: Mm-hmm.
Kiana Joyner: Um, so that's been huge as well, just watching for those posts and responding. Or if you have a virtual assistant, you could have them do that for you. Psychology
Andrew Joyner: today.
Kiana Joyner: Yeah. And Psychology today as well. Sometimes other. Providers may be looking for a referral and they see that we match some of the things that they're looking for, but Facebook has been number one in those groups.
So if you're not in any of those groups, definitely recommend, finding some and using that as a referral source. 'cause it's free.
Gordon Brewer: Well, I think one of the things, I don't know how it is where you all, and you remind me, you said you're in the Dallas area. Yes. Um, I know in the Southeast, for the most part, couples therapists are not as prevalent as they are in other parts of the country.
Is that something that you found in your area?
Kiana Joyner: We've seen quite a few, um, but not the Mary Duo, you know, not necessarily like that combo. Right. There's a lot of single practitioners that are doing the work. But I feel like we've, we've found a decent amount kind of in this area too. I'm also licensed in Minnesota, um mm-hmm.
So we can also see clients there as well as in Texas. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's, uh, well, I guess my, what, where I was kind of going with that is, is that I know when I, um, first went into private practice, one of the things that kinda set me apart in my area was, is that there weren't many merit, not many therapists that were doing couples work.
And so it, it automatically kinda creates this whole niche that, a lot of times people don't think about, and I think a lot of times too, depending on your training you know, people tend to shy away from couples work.
Kiana Joyner: They do. I mean, it's hard.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Kiana Joyner: It, it's hard. It, it's a lot of energy and intentionality and you're navigating two personalities, two backgrounds, maybe two mental health conditions or more potential trauma in each of them.
Um, so there's a lot. That you're navigating. So it can be very, um, intensive. So I appreciate doing it together. Alright, so we can play off that energy or if I'm not sure what to say next, he'll pipe in and it's a nice kind of synergy there. Yeah.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah, that's good. I think our natural approaches from the therapist side of the world and from the coaching side of the world, you know, she really focuses a lot on the.
Emotional health, mental health, um, you know, what elements are in your past that might be contributing to what you're experiencing. Patterns of behavior, you know, things like this, abuse, if there's mental health disorders, et cetera. And then I really focus on as a coach, helping them set their goals, set their intentions, what is it that we're trying to accomplish as a couple?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Joyner: Where do we see ourselves going? And then, you know, helping them put the pieces in place to get there. We focus a ton, like I said, on skill development. So our sessions are a little bit of, you know, diving deeper into the feelings and stuff like that, but then also some teaching and guiding on skill development.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Andrew Joyner: Um, and I think. A lot of our couples are coming to us looking for some of that instruction, not just a space where they can share their feelings, but they also wanna know how do we improve, you know, how do we communicate better? What do we have to do? What are the practical things we have to do to communicate better, to align our finances, to improve dynamics in our household?
So I think it takes a little bit more when it's a couple, but then you have two people's perspective that you have to kind of balance in the session, uh, versus if it's just a one-on-one. Um, so that also, that dynamic can be a little challenging. Make sure they both have equal mic time in a sense.
Mm-hmm. And there's always seems to be one who's a little bit more verbal than the other. And I think the biggest benefit to having. A couple in the session. Is it, it seems like in, at least in our heterosexual couples, the men open up a little bit more when there's another male in the session. Mm-hmm.
You know, they, they feel like, you know, they have somebody not on their side 'cause we don't take sides, but
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Andrew Joyner: Just, it just feels like a little bit more of an inviting space for them. Mm-hmm. They can be a little bit more vulnerable.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, yeah, I, I tend to find that as well.
Being a male therapist, it seems like men are a little more comfortable. Talking with me then, and I don't wanna, I don't wanna be too stereotypical or I'm just painting with a broad brush here, but, right. And I tend to find that, find that as well. Yeah,
Andrew Joyner: yeah,
Kiana Joyner: yeah. And people will seek out a male therapist as well, you know, because the couple duo, that's not that common.
So I have seen people specifically asking for a male therapist because they want their partner to feel comfortable. And not like it's just, you know, the ladies ganging up or something like that.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, right,
Andrew Joyner: right right. Yeah, because go as you know, as you know, right, we're dealing with perception, and perception isn't always reality, right?
Mm-hmm. Whether that's in your relationship or just of the provider themselves. And so, you know, we kind of have to acknowledge that to some degree that, you know, there's a certain perception there, and so that's going to dictate how people engage with you. Um, at least on the onset. But we make it very clear when we first meet with them that we're not here to take sides.
We don't have an agenda.
Kiana Joyner: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Joyner: You know, we're really here to prioritize your goals, what you're saying you wanna work towards. Um, and we're gonna hold you both accountable equally. Mm-hmm. You know, it when, when necessary. Um, so don't, don't come in thinking that Oh, yeah we got her. You know, that, that's not, that's not happen, so.
Gordon Brewer: Right, well, what I love, uh, about the approach you're using is it's really, it, it's, it. It, as most people know, the kind of the hallmark of, um, good couples therapy is this very process oriented. And more of a systemic approach of looking at not so much the content of what people bring, but how they navigate conflict.
And changing, changing all of that up and teaching them new ways to communicate, like you said, which I think is really, really good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, um, if, if there were other people out there that are thinking, oh, this is a good approach and I'd like to maybe think about doing partners, couples work.
What would be some things that you have learned that maybe you wouldn't want them to do, or maybe they've, uh, things you've learned the hard way, so to speak?
Andrew Joyner: Are you referring to other providers?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Andrew Joyner: Well, first off, I think you have to be realistic about the skillset you and your partner possess.
Um. Kiana and I are very highly trained. We have very specific, not only education and background, but personal skills that we bring to the table mm-hmm. Um, that really make this work. Um, we work together really well as a team. That was, that pre-existed us trying to start a business together. We have done many other ventures together prior to this.
Um, this wasn't our first foray into working together as a couple. So I think making sure that you and your partner are communicate well, you have really strong skills at how you navigate conflict between the two of you, you know, and you, you treat it like a business. So that you can stay organized and, and there's no room for miscommunication.
'cause even in our enjoyment, there's still room for, you know, things to fall through the cracks or miscommunication to happen.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Andrew Joyner: And it would be a shame that that would then creep into your marriage, you know, and it become a wedge between you and your partner. So it's, it's just really being honest and transparent with yourself, with your partner on where you guys stand.
Mm-hmm. And how well do you work together as a team in general? Right.
Kiana Joyner: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I would also add you have to be willing to do the work yourself.
So if you have unresolved trauma, if you have unresolved issues with your partner like every session we have to make sure we're good.
Like anything from prior disagreements or anything like that, we have to make sure we have resolved that, adjust the feelings, come together to be on the same page. Otherwise, that energy is gonna shift into the session. Sure. I'm gonna feel like you interrupted me or I was gonna say something and you piped in and mm-hmm.
Now I have an attitude and I'm trying to
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Kiana Joyner: Provide therapy, you know, because everything is very subtle. We, we do it virtually. But I think as most of us know, you can pick up a lot over video. Mm-hmm. It feels like you're sitting right in front of someone. So those very subtleties we have to make sure we've done our work and we've worked through anything we need to before we step into those sessions so that it's not a barrier and hindrance to helping our clients.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. I thought I, I love your vulnerability with that in that yeah, the home stuff can creep into work stuff and I think for a couple people that are working with their spouse or working with their partner yeah, that's something you have to be really hyper aware of. I would think.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah. After every session we debrief with each other. Yeah. Just kind of on our reflections on the session, how it went. Um, we ask each other for feedback on, what we shared or what we said in the session, and you know, we, so we kind of make sure we're. On the same page there, so there's no miscommunications.
We have this little totem, I was
Kiana Joyner: gonna say show
Andrew Joyner: up. We have this little totem heart thing that we use. It was something laying around our office. Mm-hmm. But we use this and we kind of like slide it back and forth to one another. If one of us has something we want to share, we'll we'll slide it over to ourselves.
Or if we're done, we'll slide it to the partner.
Kiana Joyner: If one's talking too much,
Andrew Joyner: we'll take
Kiana Joyner: it.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah. So we kind of balance each other, make sure we each give equal time to ask questions and engage. So we've just found, you know, like little small ways to do that, uh, to make sure one person isn't dominating the conversation.
Mm-hmm. So we each equally can, ask questions and share
Gordon Brewer: insight. That's great. Yeah. I love that. I love that. And that's modeling, I think too for couples, you know, just, um. Just healthy communication and just being able to hear one another and be I think as the gottman's put it, being able to accept the other person's influence, um, is such an important piece of couples work, of just having a healthy relationship is being able to do, to do that.
Kiana Joyner: Right. Yeah. 'cause you can't fake it,
Gordon Brewer: right.
Kiana Joyner: You can't, you know when, when, because it's, you're on the fly, you're live. Right. There's no edits that you can make. Yeah. Right. Um, so if someone says something and if I felt something, they're gonna see it.
Andrew Joyner: Yeah.
Kiana Joyner: You know, so like, you really have to be real, be very real with yourself and real with your partner.
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Sure. Well, that's great. That's great. Kiana and Andrew, I, I, I know we've we could probably spend all day talking about couples work is one of my favorite topics, but, um, absolutely gotta be respectful of your time. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and and that sort of thing.
Kiana Joyner: Yes, you can go right to our website, soul Journey project.com. You can, um, book a consultation directly through there. We have articles, we have information about us. Um, we have a journal on there as well. Um, and we would love to connect with you and, see where we go in the future. We're also on Instagram at Soul Journey Project, um, as well as social, as, uh, Facebook as well.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Do you still have your YouTube channel?
Andrew Joyner: It's not currently active. We, uh,
Kiana Joyner: paused it,
Andrew Joyner: paused it for a little while. Okay. To focus, really, really focus on our work with our couples and. Joining great podcasts like this one. And, uh, maybe one day in the future we'll reactivate it and, and kind of switch it up a little bit.
Gordon Brewer: But yeah, I think people would like that. Yeah, I do. Yeah.
Andrew Joyner: Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: So good, good. Well, we'll have links here in the show notes, in the show summary for people to get to all of this easily, and Kiana and Andrew, it's been a pleasure to have you.
Andrew Joyner: Thank you, Gordon
Kiana Joyner: Honor. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.
Gordon Brewer: Oh yes.