The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really excited for you all to get to hear from Dr.
Travis Heath. I'm a, a little bit having a little bit of star struckness here b- knowing what, what I do about him. But Tra- Dr. Travis Heath, tell us more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Dr. Travis Heath: Gosh, how have I landed where I've landed? Yeah. I'll go all the way back to, uh, long before I was a psychologist.
I think I'd probably be the person that many people wouldn't have expected to have a PhD. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe being a psychologist wouldn't have been surprising, but having a PhD definitely would've been surprising. And I was sort of someone that found high school kind of boring, and I was interested in reading and studying, but I wanted to do it my own way and that didn't work out so well in high school.
You know, you kind of have to conform to what they want. And I, um, I love sports, so sports are kind of what made me get my grades up in high school. And then in college I took an undergraduate psychology course. I had never even heard much about psychology, to be honest with you. I mean, back in the '90s when I was in high school you couldn't take psychology in high school.
And I had a wonderful professor, Dr. Linda Lockwood, who taught the Intro to Psych course. I remember I was sitting, like, near the back, and by the end of the class I was in the front row, and that wasn't conscious. I just sort of kept gravitating towards it and I found it fascinating. A lot of the things I had thought about pretty deeply, I didn't know there was a field of study and there was language to describe this.
And so it was just, it was amazing. And so that, that really is what led me into going down this road. And I did a master's degree first in clinical psychology- Mm-hmm ... with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy, and I thought I'd just get a master's degree and then I wanted to teach and do some other things, so I ended up getting a PhD.
Now n- still not quite sure how that came to pass. And so- ... for the last 20 or so years I've been fortunate enough to have a career in academia, which is nice when I combine it with some of the things I'm doing outside of academia. Like, I don't think I could just be in academia. Mm-hmm. Um, actually I'm quite certain I couldn't.
It would not work for me. But having that combined with, you know, a rich practice and then, you know, lately the last couple of years doing things I've been doing for psychotherapy.net, hosting podcasts and creating content, getting to talk to all sorts of cool therapists, I mean, these are the kinds of things that make me come alive.
So that I don't know that that young, younger version of me in high school- Mm-hmm ... would probably be shocked to see, uh, where I'm at now, but somehow I got here and it's a lovely existence.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Oh, that's great. That's great. I think, uh, a lot of us, uh, end up in this profession not really expecting that but we do anyway.
Which is, I, I think is really a cool thing. But, uh, ye- you know, one of the things that I did wanna ask you about is you're with your podcast and, um, which is, uh, in conjunction with the Psychotherapy Network, You get to hear a lot of kind of cutting edge stuff and a lot of new things that are coming out.
What are the what are maybe some of the highlights and things that are really catching your attention right now? Mm-hmm. Particularly being, uh, being in academia.
Dr. Travis Heath: Yeah. That's r- that's a really great question. It's interesting because I think in academia often we cling to more classical ways of engaging- Mm-hmm
with the work, which isn't necessarily bad, by the way. I mean, I think those classical ideas are important, and they help provide foundations and help inspire innovation in some ways, right? So academia, I think in, in some ways clings to the past. Uh, in terms of what I've found, you're right, I've gotten to speak to so many interesting people, and I've become really interested in therapy that's happening outside of the office.
Like there's- Mm-hmm ... uh, someone I've interviewed and we're doing a project with named Clayton Norman, who is doing skate therapy, and he's actually on skateboards with kids and, and this is combined with like talk therapy and the way he sort of- Mm-hmm ... you know, they struggle to do ... i'm not a skater myself, so I'm sure the lingo's not quite right here, but they struggle- Mm-hmm
they struggle to do a trick or something like that, and then he's able to relate that to something in their life and- Mm-hmm ... how they overcome it, you know, at the skate park. And so that sort of thing has really interested me because I think- Mm-hmm ... there's a lot of potential for what we do that's beyond just sitting in the office.
Now, a decent amount of what I've done ... Well, am I in an o- sometimes I'm in a digital office these days. Um- So it's changed since I first started doing, you know, like private practice 20 some years ago. But y- you know, I think we're just so classically trained to be in our offices, and I think there's a lot of- Mm-hmm
potential for community work and that sort of thing. So that's been something that's really interested me. Th- another thing in general that's interested me is the way people take ideas that have been around for a while, but maybe they refashion them or they think about them in new ways. Mm-hmm.
And I found that really useful, especially when those folks are able to pay homage to the people that came before them, you know, and s-
Gordon Brewer: Right. Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Travis Heath: they don't act like they're creating something brand new that no one's ever seen before, but they're taking some of those ideas and maybe they're applying them more to a modern context because, you know, the world just isn't the same as it was, and I guess that's always true, isn't it?
Like you can- Mm-hmm ... whatever point you enter in, if you go far enough back, you go, "Wow, the world's really different." But especially after COVID, I mean, the world's changed and the world seems to be moving so fast. That's something else that interests me too, is I'm noticing this- pretty consistent theme that really skilled clinicians are good at slowing things down.
And that's been- Hmm ... fascinating to me because I've been thinking about that just in my own life as a human being, but also as a therapist, that people come in and everything's moving so fast all the time, and it often, people aren't so aware of that until you slow them down and they go, "Wow, things are moving really fast.
Like, I don't even have time to have a conversation with my partner or with a friend. I don't even have time to make dinner," and things are just- Mm-hmm ... moving so quickly. And so the therapeutic effects of, like, slowing down and really staying with something is interesting to me because the amount of time we spend on our phones and everything that's cycling through our phones, not to blame everything on social and phones and the like, but-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm
Dr. Travis Heath: it does speed things up. So I've noticed this pattern of skilled clinicians slowing things down, and that's really become interesting to me in a lot of ways.
Gordon Brewer: Y- yeah. Yeah. I, I, yeah, as I, as I reflect on that and just thinking about that, I think that is, um, one of the things that I've, uh, you know, when I first started the podcast here, which was just geared to, you know, the b- kind of the business side of running a private practice and, and it, it, and I really kind of fed into that whole kind of hus- hustle culture eh, as far as, you know, you gotta do these things and be persistent and, you know, really go a- go after stuff.
And yeah, you know, and I think that was the model we had for business. But I think in, in this context, I think slowing down just makes sense. And I'm just, you know, embracing that even more in my life of just slowing things down and taking the urgency out of things I think is really a huge thing
Dr. Travis Heath: Yeah, I agree.
And it's interesting because I live in that duali- duality of course, right? Because- Mm-hmm ... you know, I'm a chair of a department now at San Diego State University. That keeps me reasonably busy. I, you know, um, see 10 to 12 clients a week. That keeps me busy. I, you know, um, am doing these things for psychotherapy.net.
So I can appreciate the hustle, and also I'm concerned when the hustle becomes like a culture in itself, you know? And, and- ... and so for me it's been I don't wanna lose that hustle. To a certain extent, that's like part of how I've arrived at where I'm at. But I don't want that hustle to become so big and so overbearing, uh, for a number of reasons.
One, I don't think it's good for my health uh- Mm-hmm ... to be honest. Two, I, I, it's not good for relationships and for being a father. Um-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Travis Heath: you know, and just I found myself wanting to try to find ways to just be a person in the world- Mm-hmm ... for a bit, but I think there are ways to kinda hold...
In a lot of ways I think that that's the challenge of adulthood, you know? Especially in the modern world, is h- how do we hold multiple things simultaneously? And so I can see the value in hustle, and I don't I don't wanna lose that in my own life, but also when does it go overboard? And what are the other things that are important to me?
And are there times to turn hustle on, and maybe other times to turn it off? And so those are the kinds of ideas I'm playing with myself. A- and sometimes of course they show up in my conversations with people I'm working with.
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Sure. Yeah, I think there's a... Yeah, th- there's this, um- Kind of way of thinking about things is that we kinda want definitive answers for things.
I think it's- Yeah ... maybe that just feels safer, I don't know. But, um, you know, it's learning to, learning to live with the, um, instead of the either/or, but the both/and. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, it's all, all those things are encompass all of that. Yeah.
Dr. Travis Heath: And yet we live in a culture that often tells us we must choose one.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Dr. Travis Heath: Right? And so I think that makes it tough, you know? It's like- Mm-hmm ... you're either here or you're over here. And of course an obvious example of that is party politics in the United States. Yeah. But there are many other examples that maybe are more subtle, right? Where you're told- Mm-hmm ... to choose a side.
And it, it's interesting too just the way we speak about it, 'cause people will say things like, "Well, I wanna hear both sides of the story." Mm-hmm. And that's fascinating to me because just that language indicates that it's a binary. There are only two sides to the story, which is interesting. Another way we might say that is, "I'm interested in learning about as many parts of the story as I can," right?
Mm-hmm. Not both sides, but as many sides as I can possibly learn about, which is a different way of thinking. So I think a lot of times we're kind of forced into that binary. And it's sneaky too, you know? It's not like people are stupid and they're, you know. Mm-hmm. And we all just get tricked into a binary because we're stupid.
It's just so deeply embedded in how we're taught to think about things, you know? And- Mm-hmm ... so I'm constantly on the lookout for that in my own life and as a clinician where there are binaries. And not necessarily to say they're good or bad or to get rid of them, but just to be curious about them when a binary comes up.
How did we come to understand that there are two options here? And maybe sometimes there are only two options, by the way.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Travis Heath: But I also wonder, is there a third, fourth or a fifth option that maybe we haven't seen yet?
Gordon Brewer: Well, I know, yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting because, uh, the fr- one of the things I just thought of is in knowing your background in narrative therapy, and that's really been a lot of your focus the, and I'm reminded, I can't remember who coined the phrase, I, I think it maybe was Brene Brown, but I might be wrong about that, but the phrase, "The story we tell ourselves" is kind of a interesting thing.
Um-
Dr. Travis Heath: Mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: y- you wanna say more about that as far as, you know, just how we change our stories and, and it changes our outlook and the way we see things? Yeah.
Dr. Travis Heath: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm glad you brought that up because I think that captures a part of how I see it. It, I think it's a little deeper, um, and not just me of course.
I learned and was trained by David Epston and INE- Mm-hmm ... have some wonderful colleagues, uh, Tom Carlson Sunny Palayac, Kay Ingamells, Sasha Pilkington. I mean, I can go on down the list of- Mm-hmm ... amazing people that I've had the chance to learn from and learn with. But I think, yes, there are the stories we tell about ourselves, and those are important, but there's also the stories that get told about us.
So one thing that I've, Well, I got asked by my first chair at my first institution, um, it was an undergraduate psych department, right? There's like, I don't know, 25, 30 full-time faculty. Only five of us were clinical, and I was the only one doing narrative work. So they were all very supportive, but they c- I was kind of in the corner doing this weird narrative work.
They didn't have any idea what it was. And my chair's like, "Okay." As I'm getting ready to go up for tenure, he goes, "If I talk to the dean and the dean asks me, like, 'What is narrative therapy?' Like, can you give me a 30-second elevator pitch?" And I was like No. Like, I can't. I, like, I, how do you expect me to distill this down into 30 seconds?
But I realize it was a very fair ask, and it was troubling to me that I couldn't come up with an elevator pitch. So this is the best one that I found for narrative therapy. Be careful of the stories you tell about yourself and that others tell about you, because eventually they'll live you. So I'll say that one more time.
Be careful of the stories you tell about yourself and that others tell about you, because eventually they'll live you. And so there's the, yes, there is the stories we tell about ourselves, and those are very important stories. Those are o- often informed by stories told by others, and sometimes those others are people we know, right?
Like, familial stories. Mm-hmm. Stories our parents, our siblings tell, you know? And those are powerful stories. And then I'm also really interested in the deeper cultural stories that are told about who people can be and who people can't be, right? How we can behave or how we can't behave, or what costumes we're supposed to wear in certain settings and what costumes we're not supposed to wear in other settings.
You know, whatever it is. And, and a lot of those larger cultural messages tend to be, uh, invisible, and we just- Mm-hmm ... take them to be truth. I mean, uh, uh, easy examples of this are when it comes to gender. Like, as a man, I've worked with a lot of men, still do, over the years, and there are certain ideas about who men are supposed to be.
Some of that is shifting with time. Mm-hmm. But there are still some, like, deeply embedded messages about who men can be, and just as importantly, who men can't be. I remember working with someone a while back when I had a newborn and describing how I was holding and rocking my newborn as I was watching football.
I was, I'm originally from Denver, Colorado. Mm. So big sports fan, big Broncos fan. Yeah. And he was like, he couldn't figure this out. He, like, "So you're holding your baby while you're watching football? Like, how are these two things compatible?" And so you have- ... a cultural idea of football there, which the dominant cultural narrative says is just fine for men, right?
Mm-hmm. But then you have this more nurturing story, right? Nurturing- Right ... a baby. And so he was trying to make sense, quite understandably in his own mind, how can these two seemingly incompatible behaviors be happening simultaneously? I love moments like that where- Mm-hmm ... because that, that exposes that these are indeed just stories.
Now, they're very powerful stories. I don't mean to minimize them, but they're not absolute truths or they're not mandates, although they can feel like- Mm-hmm ... mandates from the culture. Mm-hmm. So I think narrative therapy, when it's at its best, is curious about these different stories. It's not prescribing which stories you could, you should subscribe to or not.
It's more so just interrogating what the culture's saying and then being curious about it with people.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, it's a, uh, yeah, and it's something that I think we're, um, hopefully getting To a place just globally and just, you know, you mentioned politics where we're, we're really starting to question the stories that we hear about others and yeah.
Dr. Travis Heath: Yes, and, and I've found that often, contact relationship over time with others, and there's literature of course that supports this too, is really effective at that. What's not so effective is, like, if you have a brief encounter with someone, that's usually not as effective. But when you really begin to connect with someone over a period of time, and sometimes even if you're working towards a common goal or objective, there's interesting research around that.
I mean, it can really help people see, "Oh, this, this is a real live rich human being. This isn't a caricature of someone from X, Y, or Z group, whether political or otherwise- Mm-hmm ... that maybe I've been, I've heard about. Mm-hmm. This is actually a rich, real human being. Mm-hmm. And, and one of the great things I think about therapy, at least at its best, is it provides fertile ground for those kinds of encounters to happen, right?
Mm-hmm. Really deep, meaningful encounters where we get to know people, and we get to know people- Mm-hmm ... rather deeply. Now, of course, the people we're serving, they may not know us in quite the same way, although I've worked with some people over long periods of time, and they know me quite well. Now, that doesn't mean- Mm-hmm
that I'm speaking for 60 minutes about what's going on in my life, of course. But they just- Mm-hmm ... come to know me in a particular way over time. And, and something I've heard from people in, in thinking about moving past these binaries and preconceived notions So many people in one way or another are saying, "I want to be seen and I want to be known, and I want to be seen and known in the ways that are most meaningful to me."
Mm-hmm. Because sometimes people are seen and known due to stories outside of their control or sometimes, you know, for example, I've worked a lot with people in the criminal legal system. You know, it's like, well, that person's a criminal. And it is a really interesting label, isn't it? Because- you know this is a person, and maybe this person was tangled up in criminal activity, and sometimes criminal activity that they themselves will tell you they regret. But that doesn't mean- Mm-hmm ... the person themselves is a criminal, right? And so th- that label becomes all-encompassing. But when we have these encounters where we really get to know people, hopefully what we can do if we're reasonably successful is we can expand the possibility for how they come to be known and- Mm-hmm
and start to know them in ways that they prefer maybe rather than ways that they may have commonly become known, if that makes sense. Oh,
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I'm, I'm reminded, um, there's a song that I love. It's by the group Dawes and it's called Crack the Case, and I'm paraphrasing one of the lines, but one of the lines in that is, "How can you really, how can you really hate someone when you know what they've been through?"
And so I think that's just, yeah. A- and so when, when we get the, the context of the backstory of people, and I think that's what therapy does, is we give them permission or give them the vehicle to tell their backstory from their lens and there's something healing about that.
Dr. Travis Heath: Gosh, I agree.
I love that line. The way I have said it over the years, maybe q- not quite as eloquently, is like when I know someone well enough and know enough about their stories- Their behavior makes sense 100% of the time. Mm-hmm. If it doesn't make sense, it usually means that I don't understand enough about the stories that they're living through- Mm-hmm
and that are living through them, right? Once I- Mm-hmm ... come to understand those, it's like, oh, it makes sense. And then, you know, I, I'll say that to students, for example, and sometimes they'll and this is great, I love thinking about these things. They'll b- bring up a really extreme example. So they'll be like, "What about someone who's a child sexual predator," right?
You know, whatever it is. And it's like, okay, I'm not justifying the behavior. Mm-hmm. What I'm trying to do is understand the person and understand- Mm-hmm ... and, and, and so when I un- when I learn about their stories, guess what? I do understand. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't necessarily justify every behavior, of course, that someone engages in, and that's what I, that's what I think is lovely about therapy.
Again, when it's at its best and, it's not at its best all the time for any of us. Mm-hmm. But when it's at its best- Yeah ... I think therapy is curious, and it's really seeking to understand a person within the context in which they live. And we were talking about this earlier, and I think it's...
At its best, it slows down. It slows things down- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... and really tries to get to know and understand someone Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to happen much in the world. Again, we're all so busy and th- things are going so fast that we often don't have time to come to know people this well, and I actually think that's a lovely gift of- Mm-hmm
of therapy, right? But it, it asks something of us. Like, these things aren't easy. It sounds so easy to be curious and to try to- Mm-hmm ... really understand. But to do that requires us also to be in touch with some of the stories that w- we're living through and that are living through us, right? And, and- Right
sometimes these, these stories encourage us to label people in certain ways, right? Or try to- Mm ... understand people in certain ways. Even our own field, right? I mean, we have the DSM. Psychiatry and psychology is saying you need to understand people this way. Now, I'm not saying the DSM is all good or all bad.
I think the DSM is complicated. But the p- point is just- Mm-hmm ... that even our own, even in our own, uh, system of psychology and psychiatry, et cetera, mental health, has given us a way that we're supposed to understand people. And maybe for some people- Mm-hmm ... that could be really useful. I've met people where there are certain psychiatric labels that have been helpful for them.
Th- it's helped them understand themselves better, it's helped give them direction. And I've worked with other people where they have not been so helpful, and they feel sort of- Right ... pigeonholed and et cetera. So I don't think any of these systems are good or bad, right? But just really becoming aware, what are the systems that we're understanding people through?
And are there alternative ones that might be useful? And that asks something of us, right? Because it's not, it's not as simple as just rendering a diagnosis and being done. It's a- Mm-hmm ... complicated process, and it may be a little different for each person we're serving.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Uh, context is everything, I think.
It just ... If you understand- The lens through which a person sees the world and like you, you know, uh, uh, you know, one of the questions I'll ask a lot of times in the early part of sessions with new clients is, "Well, tell me why you think you are like you are." Mm. And so, yeah, and so, that, that, and that always gives just a lot of insight into how they see themselves.
Yeah.
Dr. Travis Heath: I really appreciate that question. Tell me why you think you are how you are. What an interesting question. When you, Now I'm switching back into the role of, of host. Oh,
Gordon Brewer: okay. Go- I'm curious ... yeah, go for it.
Dr. Travis Heath: I'm curious about that, Gordon, because-
...
Dr. Travis Heath: Like, can you, without, you know, breaching confidentiality and all those good things, c- like, what are some of the most interesting answers you've gotten or m- surprising answers- Yeah
maybe you've gotten to such a question? Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Well, I think, I think, uh, in, in the context of, um... Well, I mean, for, for people that have gone through trauma and I think about people who are maybe sexually abused and that sort of thing, and, um, you know, the sto- again, going back to the narrative, the story they tell themselves is that they are damaged goods.
Dr. Travis Heath: Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: "This happened to me, so I'm irrevocably damaged and nobody is... i'm gonna spend the rest of my life alone and-" Yeah ... "No, I'm not gonna be attractive to anyone," all of those kinds of things. And I think- Yep ... whe- when, i- if they hand you that, then you have a, you have, um, a lot to work with there, okay?
And being able to, like you say, get curious. "Okay, how did you come to this conclusion?" You know? Yeah. "How did you come to this answer for yourself?" And then just really digging, digging into that and then, offering, "Okay, well-" These things happen to you, but they are not you.
Mm.
And really working with that, you know?
And, uh, yeah. You
Dr. Travis Heath: know. No, I, I really appreciate that. I, my colleagues, Tom Carlson and Sunny Payanka, they use this term un-story. Mm-hmm. And they sort of made the argument in their book about narrative therapy. I think the title's like, So You Want to Be a Narrative Therapist, something like that. Um, it's a good book.
Uh- Uh-huh ... and they talk about this term un-story, and basically make the argument we're living in the time of the un-story. So, so that people come to therapy and they say something like I have PTSD," or, "I have ADHD," or, "I'm depressed." And by the way, those, that might be true on all of those fronts, but the thing is there's not a story, there's just a label.
And what I really love about your question there is that elicits actual stories. My colleagues- Mm-hmm ... David Epston and Kay Guimell have this this great way of describing, they were actually talking about a strengths-based approach where people just ask about strengths. And then, you know, if you do that, you tend to just get a list of, you know, "I'm this and I'm that and I'm this."
And they compared that to like a sticky note. It, like if you wrote the strength on a sticky note and you put it on their shoulder, well, of course that's gonna fall off within a few minutes, right? Mm-hmm. And that's what happens- Mm-hmm ... when we just get a label. But when we get a story, an actual story, then it, gosh, it has a different quality to it.
Then it, it, then it's something that doesn't fall right off, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's amazing the difference, and I can already hear when you're asking questions like that one- When we start diving into stories, that's, there's something rich in those, right? Mm-hmm. There's, there's something that's deep and meaningful, whereas a label, not so much.
Like, when people say, "Oh, I'm doing a strengths-based approach," I appreciate where they're coming from, but then they just get a list of 10 strengths, and the person just sort of says them and then we're done. And we're like, "Well, I put that in the intake and I'm done." And it's like, wouldn't it be interesting to get a story about each one of those?
Or multiple stories. Mm-hmm. Because that's when you see people really come alive, right? Either, uh, with regard to strengths, they might come alive in ways that are very exciting and, you know, where there's a lot of passion. I also think stories of trauma, for example, are really important. So telling those stories there's meaning in that as well, and there's a depth- Mm-hmm
to someone's suffering and experience that becomes really important. So that's what I appreciate the most about that, and I worry in the modern world that too often we're getting caught up in un- stories and labels and quick descriptions rather than slowing down and actually- Mm-hmm ... taking the time to hear these deeper stories.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, it's just, it's, it's limit it, if they don't do that, then it just limit- limits it to the label they've given themselves. Yeah.
Dr. Travis Heath: Yeah or that they've been given and now accepted.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, Travis, I've got to be mindful of your time and our time, and I, I know we could talk for a whole day about all of this.
But, uh, what are some parting thoughts you have, just thinking about maybe advice or just thoughts you have about people and practice and ways in which we can kind of enrich what we do?
Dr. Travis Heath: I love that question. Yeah, I, I think- Continually, this, this word can be jarring for folks, stay with me on this one.
Mm-hmm. But continually interrogating our own practice and the ways that we're working because I think one of the risks the longer we do this, I mean, I've been doing this for over 20 years at this point, is that we just sort of settle in to a particular way of working, and we just rinse and repeat.
Mm-hmm. On one hand, of course, if we're finding success with something, it makes sense that we'd want to carry some of that forward. Mm-hmm. That's not so much what I mean. Where it becomes, you know, like, uh, the way David Epstein describes this is he talks about the way that people at McDonald's learn how to make Big Macs, mm-hmm. They just make it the same way over and over. And I'm not s- such a big McDonald's fan, but if you like those burgers, well, maybe- Mm-hmm ... the burger would be good, right? But the thing is, not everybody likes those. Right. And maybe even if they did, they'd be like, "Well, I don't want, uh, pickles on it," or, "I don't want this on it," right?
And so this idea that we would just rinse and repeat and do the same thing, I think can be a dangerous one in a lot of ways. And so- Mm-hmm ... when we take the time to slow down and interrogate our own practices... And what I mean by that, for me, I make sure at least once a week I'm listening or watching, in the modern world, on Zoom if you're doing it- Mm-hmm.
Right ... on a Zoom sort of portal recording and watching my therapy sessions, and I'm taking notes. Sometimes I'm transcribing when I'm listening because I just want to see it on paper. Mm-hmm. I'd advise folks, maybe once a week is too much for some people depending on how many folks they're working with.
Even if you could do it once a month and just really listen to how you're practicing. And for me, I stop and I think, "Okay- Are there moments I could have slowed down or stayed with something a little bit more? Are there moments where I could have elicited more stories here? Are there certain assumptions, maybe dominant cultural assumptions that are guiding some of my questions that I wasn't aware of?
Mm-hmm. These kinds of questions, and I really enjoy asking that. And one other thing I'll add to this in terms of if you wanna call it advice, that I found really useful, especially in the last several years, is reading outside of our discipline. Hmm. Um, I I increasingly I read fewer and fewer books about therapy.
I read some. I'm a professor, and obviously- Right ... you know, it's in- it interest, it interests me, but I'm really interested in what other thinkers are saying in other disciplines. You know? Mm-hmm. Whether that be, for example, like, uh, Black abolitionist scholarship has been really useful for me. I've found ideas from people like Fred Moten, for example, that I think align very nicely with therapy.
Now, we have to take those philosophies and turn them into practices, of course. That's one of our- Mm-hmm ... challenges as clinicians. We're not just philosophers. But I'd invite people to read outside of your discipline because I think there are just so many interesting ideas about life and what makes a good life and about relationships- Mm-hmm
and about how to navigate being a human being. And when we limit ourself to just the sort of typical ideas of psychotherapy, I actually think we miss a huge swath of what it means to be human and what we could be bringing- Mm-hmm ... to our work. So that, th- those would be my little pieces of advice, if you wanna call it that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Awesome, awesome. Travis, this has been a great conversation, and I hope we'll have another one here before too long. But tell folks how they can get in touch with you and find all of your things.
Dr. Travis Heath: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, um, psychotherapy.net, I do a podcast called Therapist Confidential so if you're in- Gordon was on that very podcast- Mm-hmm
just a few episodes ago, so, very much enjoy that episode. But you can check that out if you're interested. It's on Apple Podcasts and Spotify- Hmm ... and YouTube and all the usual suspects. And I'm also doing, you know, webinars. A lot of those are free webinars on psychotherapy.net- Mm-hmm ... with various different folks, so please check those out and attend them- Yeah
if you like. And you can find my, my email. Uh, I teach at San Diego State, so I don't remem- I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember what my email is. Yeah. But if you Google my name and San Diego State- Yeah ... you'll find my email- Right, right ... and you can reach out to me that way.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah, and we'll, we'll find it and put it in the show notes.
So, uh, yeah, that'll, that'll be great so people can- Beautiful ... reach out to you. Well, again, Travis, thanks so much for being on the podcast, and hopefully we'll, our paths will cross again here soon.
Dr. Travis Heath: Let's make sure they do. Thanks very much, Gordon.