The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Okay, if you want to do the BB. All right,

Ashley Gayle
I am super excited to be on the podcast. Thank you so much for the invitation, Gordon. My name is Ashley Gayle and I am the host of a mental health podcast called Black girls have anxiety to where we focus on conversations about mental health from real black women talking about their own experiences. And we also feature education from mental health professionals. So I'm super excited to be here today and to have this conversation with you.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And, you know, I'm really excited for you all to get to hear from Ashley Gail, I've just actually not just really just met, but I can tell by our conversation already, you're gonna really enjoy the topic that we're talking about, which is just about anxiety, and particularly how it affects people of color and some of the stigmas and stuff. But anyway, Ashley, welcome.

Ashley Gayle
Thank you. Thank you. I'm super excited to be here.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes. And so as I start with most everyone, tell folks, a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?

Ashley Gayle
Yeah, of course. So I grew up in Las Vegas, I currently live just outside of Tampa. I started, black girls have anxiety to with a really good friend of mine back in 2020. We all know 2020 was a year of pure chaos from talking about. And we had a conversation. And during that conversation, she said, you know, black girls have anxiety too. And we need a space to talk about this and talk about how it affects us and also learn about it. So from there, we just kind of took off and started the podcast. Since then, my friend has kind of stepped back. And it's just been me. She's like a cheerleader on the sideline. Now. She's got businesses taken off. So, but I've been I've had the podcast for three years, and I've had some really amazing conversations. And I struggled with anxiety, and I've had it for a while before I had a name for it. I've struggled with depression, as well as some other things. And I never I think there was just a lot that I just didn't know. And it's just been an interesting journey learning a lot. I'm a bit of a podcast nerd. So it was only right for me to Yes, yeah, having a podcast of my own.

Gordon Brewer
Well, it's, I will say it's a wonderful media for having conversations just like this. And so, yeah, so. And the other thing I'd like to say, Ashley, is I really admire your vulnerability and being able to share that. That's that's huge. Yeah,

Ashley Gayle
it's a little nerve wracking sometimes. Yeah,

Gordon Brewer
sure. Sure. So tell us I guess maybe a good question to start with is tell us what you're learning about anxiety and about yourself and this whole journey? Ah,

Ashley Gayle
yeah, I've learned so much about anxiety. I think one of the I think one of the biggest things that I learned early on in the podcast was that, you know, there's kind of two different types of anxiety like there's the normal anxiety that your body needs to kind of stay alive. So their normal anxiety that you know, the fear or the fight or flight, or freeze now, there's that healthy response to things that like me, endanger you out in the world. So like, I always use a comparison of like, I'm driving, and then somebody in front of you to stop suddenly, and you've got to stop suddenly. So it's that quick reaction that can leave you a little bit anxious afterwards, even. And then I've learned now that there's like, general anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, where that same like car suddenly stops feeling happens when there's no danger. So that was really good for me to learn, because I didn't understand what I was what I was experiencing. And I think it was the hardest part. But that's been one of the biggest things I've learned early on is that anxiety is is necessary to a certain degree, but anxiety that starts to disrupt your life and comes into play when you don't really need it. And then kind of like wrecks your nervous system a little bit and you're in danger when you're not, is when it starts to kind of mess things up a little bit.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. And that's a, that's a that's a huge thing. To learn that. You're exactly right in our brains, there's that part of our brain is called the amygdala that knows that the whole purpose So that is to keep us safe and keep us alive and, and all that sort of thing. And you're right, it doesn't know how the difference sometimes between difficulty versus danger. And so, yeah,

Ashley Gayle
100%. And so that, that has been a big one for me. And I think another big one for me, it's just that how anxiety can show up in your body up to mental health professionals on the podcast. But I've also just talked to, you know, other black women where it shows up differently, whether that be in how we may be reacting to things, whether that's like, in anger immediately, because we haven't quite like, we're reacting from this thing that we're not really aware of that's happening. There is a while where my anxiety was just at a peak every day. And I would go to sleep with my hands in a in a fist. And I didn't understand that. And I didn't notice it, I think for like a couple of months. But I was so anxious, going to sleep that I would go to sleep with my hands and a fist. Until I think I had a conversation with maybe Dr. Stevens on the podcast, I spoke to somebody and I realized that was part of the way the anxiety was showing up in my body. So that's been really interesting for me to learn about, like how it affects your stomach. And you know, sometimes like, I'll get lightheaded if the anxiety is like way too high. But yeah, it affects everybody. Similarly, but sometimes differently. So.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, yeah, you're exactly right. I think that whole mind body connection is just huge. And when we can, when we can identify, that can tend to be a game changer for people.

Ashley Gayle
Yes, 100%. That was huge for me and starting to realize different ways. I know, for me, I can get like a bit irritable. But I can also kind of go silent if my anxiety is really high, because I kind of start to space out. And I'm spacing out because I'm thinking of 50 different things like my brain is going in all different directions. And they all point to like worry, I'm worried about, I'm worried about work, I'm worried about, like, life, and I'm worried about like the phone call that I have to make later. So I'm like, in one moment, there's all these different things that I'm worried about in but to an outsider, I'm just not paying attention to

Gordon Brewer
them. Right. Right. Yeah, that's cool. So I know, one of the things that's really been part of your message that you shared is, is really helping and a lot of the stigma and, you know, just, I guess maybe it'd be fair to say unique issues around mental health for people of color, black folks. And so what, what are you learning? And what do you want to share about that? Yeah,

Ashley Gayle
I think the, there are a ton of stigmas, like, across the board, regardless of race. But I think when it comes to the black community there, there are certain things that a lot of us are raised with, particularly the black community here in America that we have, particularly black women that we are not supposed to, we really just don't have time to even think about mental health. And so that kind of leaves a stigma of well, I guess we can roll it back to black women are kind of seen as strong. And so for a lot of people that may they may think, well, that's not a bad stereotype to have a set, you're strong, you can get through anything, but when, when society and your family and everyone's telling you like you're strong you can get through it, it really leaves no room for you to even venture out into why you're feeling the things that you're feeling. So that stinks. Like everybody's got to be strong black woman have to be able to, you know, if you're a single parent, you have to be able to do everything. If you're not a single parent, you still have to be able to do everything, really have to be able to do everything without complaining. And I think a lot of times, things get stuffed down. For us in particular, we kind of tend to stuffed things down because we hold a lot of shame and I've gone through that as well, where I hold shame in like, I'm really not having a good day like I'm, I'm depressed and I've been depressed for months. And so there are times where those within our community or within our families, or even our friends, when we explore we do finally get to that point of expressing that need for help. Oftentimes, it's met with like, you know, like you've got this life your life's not that hard like you've you've been through this before. You know, pray it away. That's a big one in our community, it's just to like, throw faith in somebody's face, when what they actually need is resources. So I think for me just having conversations with other black women, I mean, education is great. But I think for those of us I think being able to share is really powerful, just like what you said earlier, just being able to show up in a space and being vulnerable. I think each conversation that's had on the podcast, but also each conversation that people are having in real life, about their own mental health, I think more and more black women will be able to release some of that shame, and move past the stigma of like, black women don't need help in black women are going to get there everything once we can move past those stigmas, then we can finally move into a space of healing and really learning about what what are we going through? What is our family going through and gaining a better understanding of that and being more empathetic towards other people as well? I think just helps everybody.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you know, one of the things that I've, I've paid attention to, or tried to pay attention to, as, you know, over this over the last two, three years, where as we've moved through COVID, I think in general, the, the stigma around mental health is hopefully lifting a little bit. And in that, you know, we've all struggled with being isolated with being confronted with all those things, just in the, you know, also just the, the real fear of the virus, and having to keep ourselves away from others, and not knowing who's going to give it to us know, that kind of thing. That's, that's a real thing. And then just even within society over this last three years, we had George Floyd's martyr, and just you, you know, start the list of where black folks have then been targeted been, you know, you know, it's, it's, it's been a culture of keeping folks silent, you know, out of sight, out of mind all of that. So you pile that on top of it with just like you said, General Anxiety Disorder, I can only I can only imagine what that's like for folks. Yeah,

Ashley Gayle
I mean, it's definitely excuse me, there's definitely things that I think our community and other community, other communities of color have been going through for a really long time. But I think, in particular, since 2020, I think there's been, like you said, there's been the isolation aspect of the pandemic happening, then, then you have this moment where the things that we've all always known have been happening, the injustices that we've always known had been happening in the in the ones that we navigate, that a lot of people don't realize that we navigate from day to day, all of a sudden gets put on display, like, be a murderer, gets put on display for the whole world to see over and over and over and over. So I think that on top of, you know, we had Sandra Bland, we have I mean, we have there's, unfortunately, a really long list. And I think for us that does wear down in a different way than it affects everybody else. And you know, that was part of the conversation when that was part of the seed that planted this podcast is, you know, there are a lot of people protesting, there are a lot of people having conversations and trying to figure out like, how do we move forward? What do we do next? And my friend Laurie and I, when we had the conversation that sparked this podcast, it was like, Hey, we're not out protesting right now. Like, what can we do? What can be our form of protest? And for us, it was like, we need to create a safe space to decompress from all of this. Because right now, everybody's, everybody's nervous system is on high at this point, like, where do you go to, like, really break down? Why is it this high? But also, like, what are some ways that we can actually relieve our anxiety from all of this? So that's really like, the safe space that that that we've created, but it's come from that need of a little, not even a little but just some rest? And that's an stigma in our community is that like, we don't deserve rest? And I think that's, that's in the black community, but I think that's kind of weaved in American culture where you work, work work, and then maybe when like, you're 60 or 70, maybe you retire. But until then, you work and you take pride that you don't take time off and and I think you Millennials and Gen Z, I think we're trying to shake it up a little bit and change at that, that hustle culture. But I think at the end of the day, we all need a space to be able to take a deep breath, maybe learn some breathing exercises, maybe figure out, like, why we're feeling the feelings that we're feeling. And then what do we do it after that after we figure that out?

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, there's a theme that I've kind of been aware of this last few weeks. But there's a podcast that I listen to. Called, everything happens, it's by Kate bowler. And she is she's, she teaches at Duke, but she's a survivor of, of colon cancer, she had like stage four colon cancer and wasn't expected to live. But anyway, not to get too far down that rabbit hole. But anyway, one of the themes that that has come up is, is that bad things will happen to people. And I think there's this this message that gets kind of woven in, and this is, I think, universal, more so in America than anywhere else is that if something bad happens to it, then it's your fault. And I think being able to, to over overcome that stigma, you know, if somebody's somebody's poor, or they're all of that it's their fault, kind of thing. But we don't take into account you know, the, the worlds that we're born into, we don't take into account the fact that bad, excuse my language, bad shit happens to people all the time. That is not of their own doing. Yeah, yeah. And so I think being able to acknowledge that is is an important step forward. Yeah.

Ashley Gayle
Yeah, I agree, I think it's a huge step forward. And it's going to be that step is going to be uncomfortable for some people. That step also requires like dismantling some of the, the things that we have set up here in this country, and particularly in that have been set up, like some of the ways that the systems work here in America, they work in a certain way that, you know, makes access to mental health support for certain demographics, harder than it is for others, it makes, you know, somebody like me going into a doctor's office, particularly for mental health, I'm more likely to be misdiagnosed, and I'm more likely to not get not get a diagnosis. So just things like that we all navigate the world differently. But I think more empathy that we can have, and the more willingness we are to learn about why those things are happening, like the better off we'll all be.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, for what it's worth growing up in the South, and I'm gonna age myself on the tail end of Jim Crow eras, which still, a lot of that stuff is still happening. I've seen over and over again, where black folks are dismissed. Whereas if I walk in there as a white male, I'm treated totally differently. And yeah, and so that, that making people aware of those things.

Ashley Gayle
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's, I think that the more people can, you know, like, like you said, Walk into, because I think sometimes people walk in and then for you, you've been greeted, like, oh, let's just say hypothetically, always. So it's really it takes some work and it takes seeing outside of yourself to be able to notice when the person behind you doesn't receive the same treatment. It's a little uncomfortable, but I think if we're trying to you know, have the betterment of everybody is necessary in every space like going into the doctor's office seeing how different people are treated like I've had a doctor, an endometriosis specialist, treat me so horribly walked out of the office and like cried in my car, call my mom. And, and I think part of that is like I called in complained, I called the doctor's office, and the OBGYN they had like, referred me to that doctor, and I made a complaint and I think where we can and where we have the capacity because that wears down to for us to have to do that every single time but where we can work capacity. I don't think we can accept that treatment any longer, whether that means going to find another doctor, whether that means going to find another grocery store, or whether that means going to somebody that's going to be able to make that shift. We can't keep, like, accepting the same treatment. You know, I think it takes change, it takes somebody like you to call out the case and to change and it takes somebody like me to call out the change.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, yes. That's very true. Very true. Well, Ashley, I know, I've got to be respectful of your time. And I know that we could spend all day on this conversation talking about these important meaningful things in life. And, as I said earlier, I really appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness to put yourself out there in this way and, and share all of these things around mental health around how we, how we live together of people of different cultures, and different race and, and all of that sort of thing. So kudos to you for doing that.

Ashley Gayle
Oh, thank you, Gordon, I appreciate you having me on the podcast. This has been a really great conversation. Hopefully, we could do it again sometime. Yes,

Gordon Brewer
I'm sure we will. We'll tell folks how they can get in touch with you and about your podcast and all of that.

Ashley Gayle
Yeah, of course. So please, follow black girl at Black girls have anxiety two on Instagram and Tiktok. And then you can listen to the episodes on Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. It's just black girls have anxiety, two, that's two with two, two O's. And we release episodes every week. We've got mental health professionals. We've got everyday black women sharing their stories, and we've got reps from resources, different organizations. So yeah, make sure to give us a follow.

Gordon Brewer
Awesome, awesome. I will have links in the show notes in the show summary for people to get to that easily. Well, it's been it's this has been great actually. I hope I like hope we did get to do this again.

Ashley Gayle
Yes, definitely. Thank you so much, Gordon. I appreciate it. Yes.