The Practice of Therapy

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Okay. Hi, I'm Dr. Larry Waldman, clinical forensic psychologist recently retired from active practice. And I'm glad to be on the podcast, prep the practice of therapy.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so glad to have with me today, Dr. Larry Waldman. Larry has quite a bit of experience in private practice. And just as a clinician, and so Larry, welcome.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Thank you. Glad to be here.

Gordon Brewer
Glad you're with me as well. And also, I have to say, I really appreciate the fact that you got up so early to record with me, because he's on the West Coast. I'm on the East Coast, and we're recording at 10 o'clock in the morning for Eastern time. So that's pretty early on the west coast. So thanks for taking the time to do this.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Fine, but the truth of the matter is, I'm an early riser. And I did that for my 45 plus years of practice. I got a lot of my work done in terms of reports and articles and so forth from 5am to 7am.

Gordon Brewer
Wow. Wow. Sounds like sounds like a great habit, actually. So that's probably very, very smart. So Larry, is, is a start with everyone. Why don't you tell folks a little bit about yourself and your private practice journey and how you've landed where you landed?

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Oh, thank you. Sure. I started out as a school psychologist with the Scottsdale School District, which is a suburb of Phoenix, Arizona, from 73 to 78. And at that point, I completed the doctorate at Arizona State University and entered the world of private practice. The first year or so was a bit a bit bumpy. But I read everything I get my hands on, talk with people, and so on. And frankly, there wasn't a lot out there in the later 70s, if you will. But ultimately, I learned how to do it. And I marketed in a non traditional kind of way, if you will, and developed a rather diverse practice. Where in some some days, my busy days, Tuesdays and Thursdays, I saw 10 patients and I might be doing 10 different things. During those days. I also did things. Again, we're kind of non traditional, and so on. And the last 20 years or so of my practice, I entered the forensic arena and spent a lot of time in court and was was a sought after expert witness in the area of any areas of family law, personal injury, and things like that. In addition to that did a lot of public speaking, professional speaking, I've written seven books, including one that relates to this one and titled The graduate course you never had noticed now a second edition. So it my practice became probably one of the most successful in the Phoenix area.

Gordon Brewer
Wow, wow. Yeah, I love I love hearing that. I love hearing these stories, because one of the things that I admire is that you were able to you're really one of the pioneers and really just thinking about how we, how we operate and in private practice in terms of really thinking outside the box. In other words, going going beyond just the clinical setting, in terms of reaching people and being able to, to do all of that. And particularly with your books, that's quite impressive that you have written that many books. I'm curious though, how did all the ideas for this get sparked for you really during a time period when it really wasn't that prevalent?

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Well, I would sit there and think about things a lot. And, and, and I also coached, by the way, young clinicians, and how to develop and market their private practice. And I always talk about being open to the possibilities. If you want, I can give you an example.

Gordon Brewer
Yes, love, love, love examples and stories. And sure, okay.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Well, this was probably eight years ago or so several years, a couple of years before I retired. But I read an article in the newspaper about a case where a surrogate gave birth to the child, and then refused to return it to the genetic parents. And the article noted that that there really wasn't any law in this instance, the genetic set outpaced the the legal part if you. And so they were stymied as to what what was going on. And then the article noted that there were a couple of attorneys that specialized in, in this arena. And one of them, in fact, where this case actually occurred was in Tucson, Arizona, which is an hour and a half south of Phoenix. And I read their article, and I went, huh. So I looked this attorney in Tucson up, called her and in fact, her secretary, let me in. And I was speaking to her. And I said, I, I read this article about this case that you had. And it occurs to me that to prevent something like this from happening again, that it would be a good idea that the next time you have a surrogate, that before, you know, she goes, goes and does her business, if you will, that she undergo a comprehensive psychological evaluation to ensure that she's competent and sane, and is ready to go with the program. She said, Wow, that is a great idea. And from that point forward, I probably did owe a dozen comprehensive psychological evaluations at a very high rate, by the way, because yes, 1000s of dollar are at risk. So that's what I mean by, you know, being open to the opportunities. And I could tell you, I was stories, but I won't bore you. Yeah. But I did that on numerous occasions, where I'm sure many of my colleagues read the same thing. But when Oh, that's interesting, and put it down and walked away, where I followed up. And that led to very interesting little very lucrative opportunities.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. What I love about that is just kind of the maybe maybe it's a little bit of courage to kind of step out in that way. Is that, or was it just more just intrigue? You know, it's kind of like, you know, oh, I know how to, I know how to fix this and say you go and just put yourself out there. Is that kind of what the process was like for you?

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Pretty much? Yes. Well, again, as as the professional speaker, so on. I'm accustomed to speaking in front of large groups of people. And as I often say, to patients, what's the worst thing that could happen? So, yes, now, I'm not going to tell you that every, every time I I struck out trying to do something like that it was always successful. No. In fact, my wife used to refer to it as throwing mud up against the wall. And we have Mount Kilimanjaro at the bottom of that well, because a lot of that but did not stick. So persistence is is a significant part of practice marketing. Right? But when I was active in practice, and I'm still active now in terms of speaking and writing, and consulting, but I'm not actively seeing patients any longer, but when I was active in practice, I made a point of every day doing something to promote my practice, whether it was a phone call a podcast, a an email, such a, and sometimes three or four over the course of a year, you now have several 100 pieces of mud, if you will, up on that wall, and something is going to stay. Yes. What happened with me? I, I got into a lot of interesting, lucrative situation.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Well, is that I think what it speaks to is that I think, Pete, my listeners hear from me all the time that the importance of being persistent and consistent with things. And I think what that speaks to is just, you just constantly put it out there. And it's kind of like going fish, and you're not you just keep putting bait in the water. And eventually, you're gonna get something. Yeah, but you have to get up every day. Yeah.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
I love that analogy. I hadn't. I have never thought of it. But you're right. Yeah. You make more chances you have for a bite.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. So after several years of being a private practice, you know, what have you how have you seen what we do in terms of private practice? How have you seen it changed? It seems like, at least now, there are a lot of us that are kind of coaching people in private practice, and a lot of us that are doing that. But what are what are the trends that you've noticed over the years in terms of people going into private practice?

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
I think the most significant newer trend that I've noticed is, of course, the internet. I think a lot of young clinicians are finding value in marketing on the net. Again, I obviously started well, before that time. I'm clearly a senior, if you will. So I'm not as familiar with that, although I certainly do some of that. But I'm, I'm more I'm more old school, and I and I still coach that because I, I still think it's best. For me, it was a simple formula. And that is I would ask myself, you know, what, what kind of client do I want to see, and, and so forth? And then many times are then often asked, Well, okay, if I can't get to the client directly, although sometimes I did, because often I was on local TV, and local radio, and so on. I mean, I was I was on channel three news and Phoenix, probably, in my career, to doesn't least talk radio Katiyar talk radio, the main talk radio station, there. In fact, the Pac Man, that was the morning drive time, we became friends, and he called me, you know, his doc, and so on. I probably spoke to him at least 230 times, and so on. So I could get people directly that way. But the other way is, if I would ask, I would think to myself, not how, who could refer me, these kinds of people, and so forth. And then what I would do, and so on is, is get them and speak in front of them. I'm a firm believer that if you can get in front of a group of potential referral sources, and speak knowledgeably to them, that's the best marketing in the world. Now, now they view you as an expert, and then they're going to refer to you. Right, right. Quick example. Quick example again. Back in the 90s. I ran into a personal injury case kind of fell into my lap. And when I was done with the case, everyone was happy. The client was happy. The clients fought actually referred her was happy. The chiropractor was happy, because he saw her make significant growth during and after she began seeing me. And the attorney was exceptionally happy, because now he was getting 40% of a much bigger piece of the pie. Because now I with my reports, and so forth. I showed the insurance company that this was not only a matter of fixing the car and fixing her back and, you know, paying her for lost time from work and all those things that typically Pio attorneys do. But there was the social emotional piece. And when that case was over, I went again. Hmm. Well, within six months, I spoke to the Arizona Bar Association Personal Injury subsection on recognizing and managing post traumatic stress disorder in the Pei client. And that that part of my practice absolutely took off. Right. But I didn't, I didn't end there. Because I also went and spoke at the, at the Arizona Chiropractic Association, annual convention on the same topic. So I'm now getting referrals from Pei attorneys and chiropractors for personal injury clients.

Gordon Brewer
Wow. Wow. Yeah, I've always I've always think think of marketing and private practice is really, it's more about helping people find you. And then knowing how you can help once they find you. And, you know, like you said earlier, you know, the Internet has changed a lot of a lot of that it's a, you know, it's funny, just yesterday, somebody locally here in my town in Kingsport, Tennessee, had reached out to me to be an expert on a blog article they were writing and for the city of Kingsport, here, and that was just kind of out of the blue. But again, I think it was because we've done a good job of just kind of getting our name out there and just kind of being you just say, you know, this is, here I am, this is what I do. And then that that pays off, rather than just hoping that people will find you. It's, it's a very active kind of thing of just getting out there.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Exactly. Yeah. As I say all the time, no private practice is a business. Mm hmm. That I speak all across the country to mental health associations, and how to develop, manage and market their practice. And I often start off by saying, raise your hand if you consider yourself a business person. And more often than not, only a handful of people will actually do that. Right? And I say, and then I say to the rest, those of you who haven't raised your hand, good luck. because like it or not, you know, the, the practice of therapy is a business. And like any business, you have to understand how to manage it effectively, and marketing. I like to say you could be the best clinician in the county, but if only you and your mom know that you're not going to be successful. People have to know who you are, where you are and what you do.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Well, Larry, with your with your book, The graduate course you never got, I think I'm saying the title right. Yeah. So besides marketing, what else do you cover in that book?

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Well, I talk about passive income. In that in addition to of course, marketing yourself effectively, which I think is is the key to a private practice. We do noble work. I say this all the time. We save marriages, you know, we save people from suicide. We help parents with their children and so on. We deserve to be compensated appropriately for that and so on and so on. One of the things that that I did in my practice was to develop, again, passive streams of income that is earning income when I'm not necessarily sitting in front of a car across from another client. And one of those his, and we've already talked about his writing books. Oh, I mean, I, I, I'm I, my first book that I wrote in 1984, is entitled, who's raising whom. And that book is still selling, it's still appropriate, and so on. Now, yes, it took a lot of time and effort to to write a book. But once you're done, it's done. And then again, if you market it well enough, you reap the rewards, I probably have sold though 20,000 copies of that book. So writing books, is a way to, again, get your name out, but also earn passive income. Public and professional speaking, I've made a lot of money, speaking professionally. And typically it's on weekends, and after hours, and so forth. So it really doesn't interfere with practice too much. And yet, I'm getting additional income, selling books. And of course, it's a great marketing tool. The other thing that I did I did is I, I purchased my own building, and I have nine renters in my building. So I made money, not off their work, but just their rent. And I talked about that in my book, I, I stayed out of their pockets, as I like to call it. But I made money based on the rent, that these providers paid me, and so on, and we all read for preferred, and so on. So even when I wasn't at work, I was I was earning income. Right. So that's, I think, also important. And so and then I use some of that money appropriately, with other real estate investments. And so here I am, yes. comforts really retired,

Gordon Brewer
if you will, yes, yes. Yeah, I think I think that message is so important in that, just the importance of diversifying income. And I love, I love the concept of, of having passive income, there's a podcast that I listened to, and you might be familiar with him, his name is Pat Flynn. And he has a podcast called Smart Passive Income. And he really kind of dives in deep to this whole concept of creating businesses that you do a lot of work on the front end, but once it's set up, it brings in a steady income stream for you. And that's been an I know, part of part of what I'm doing in my own practice is creating other other ways to create income, you know, either through my group practice and that sort of thing. And you're exactly right, you know, owning real estate and other things outside, necessarily the clinical realm are great ways to, to really just make sure that you're getting the income that you need to deserve in your in your practices. Yeah. So

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
yes, you know, you're and I say this, I save this in my in my workshops. Unfortunately, the majority of clinicians out there are creating time. That's it, they make these when they're seated in one chair, and the client is seated in the chair opposite them. That's it. Well, okay, that that can work and you can make, you can make a decent living doing that, particularly if you're charging, no cash, pay prices, and so on. But still, if you're trading time for money, there's only so much time, you know, then then you can work. And the truth of the matter is, is that, you know, people who become wealthy, of course, are outside of that. So you have to monetize your time. Now, you mentioned group work, not I didn't do much of that. Although I did have a, I did, what I did have was a parenting group. So but I do have some clinic, I knew the world factors, there was one clinician who only did group work. And when you see a dozen people that one for 90 minutes, paying you a decent fee to do that, you know that that certainly beats you know, the $65 that managed care is going to give you for that way, right? I saw and I recently saw someone who does retreats where people come we can stay in a local hope of cooking and preparing for that. So there's those are interesting ideas,

Gordon Brewer
right? Yeah. Yeah, what you're what you're speaking to is really going from the concept of, of a one to one kind of relationship with clients to a one to many. And that is you're exactly right. That is where really where you can to use the term parlay your time in a way that is going to be a little more lucrative in the long run. So well, Larry, I want to be respectful of your time. And I really thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today, tell folks how they can get in touch with you and find out more about you.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Sure. My website is top Phoenix psychologist. My articles there. And I, I am. My email address is Larry Waltman, PhD at Cox. Net.

Gordon Brewer
Okay, Larry, we were breaking up. So let's do that little section again. So we get it a little more clear. unmuted our cameras. So hopefully, that'll give us a little more bandwidth here. So I'm gonna pause. So Larry, I want to be respectful of your time. And I really enjoyed our conversation today. And just I think these concepts are just kind of concepts that are really very timeless, but tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they want to find out more about your books and, and also the coaching that you do.

Larry F. Waldman, Ph.D., ABPP
Thank you. Yes, my website is top Phoenix, like the city psychologist.com. On that site, I list about a couple of dozen of my articles. I list my books that are available there, and of course on Amazon. And through me as well. My email address is Larry Waldman, PhD at Cox dotnet. And I'll give you my phone number as well, which is 602-418-8161. And yes, I do individual coaching with clinicians to help them jumpstart their

Gordon Brewer
practice. Awesome. And we'll have links to all of this in our show summary and show notes for people to access it easily so well. Dr. Larry Waldman, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you for having me Okay, thank you so much. Let me pause stop the recording here.