The Practice of Therapy

Rachel
Gordon: Okay. If you wanna do the little blurb.
Rachel: Sure. So, hi everyone, I'm Rachel Bentley from Next Level Private Practice, and I'm happy to be on the Practice of Therapy podcast. Did I say that right, Gordon? Yes. You
Gordon: did.
Rachel: Okay. Okay. Wanted to make sure today I really, I'm excited to share more about, thinking about IFS internal family systems or what some people refer to as parts work and how we can really incorporate that into our work in the chair as clinicians and, and how we lead our practices and our supervisees if we're doing clinical supervision. So I'm excited to share some of that today.
Gordon: Awesome. Can you do it again and just pull, bring it all together without the pauses? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I
Rachel: wanted to make sure, 'cause I was like, the Practice of Therapy podcast. Did I say that right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you
Gordon: did.
Rachel: I don't know why I had like, had nervousness around saying that wrong. Okay. Okay. I can do it again.
Okay. Okay. Hi everyone. I'm Rachel Bentley from Next Level Private Practice and I'm excited to be a guest on the Practice of Therapy Podcast. Today I'm gonna be sharing more about really about internal family systems. I'm a trained IFS therapist and or what some people will refer to as. Doing parts work and I want to talk about our parts and how they show up in our work as therapists, as leaders, as practice owners.
So I'm excited to share some of that with you today.
Gordon: Perfect. Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm really glad to have on the show, Rachel Bentley. Welcome, Rachel.
Rachel: Thank you for having me, Gordon.
Gordon: Yes. And Rachel. Some folks might know Rachel from Next Level practice, but Rachel, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Rachel: Yes, absolutely. So again, thank you for having me. I so started out back in 2019, I was, working in state government and had been for several years and was really getting burned out in that system for various reasons that we can imagine. Mm-hmm. And I decided to start my own solo private practice and it was a leap of faith.
I was scared to take that leap. And so I did it in a very calculated way. I started the practice. Very part-time on the side and remained in my agency job. And things began to evolve. My caseload got full in that part-time capacity and this eventually led me to leave that job, which was my goal.
And. Start developing a group practice because I started noticing there was a lot of, a lot of need and I had referrals that I couldn't take myself and decided to get on that group practice journey, which I could say a ton about, but mm-hmm. It's been quite a journey over the last six years and today we are a group of around 40 clinicians.
We, we have been. At that number for the last few years. I don't intend for us to get bigger a number. Mm-hmm. But lots of as we can, as we know in, in practice ownership, especially with a group this large, lots of trials and tribulations, lots of challenges. And I started having folks come to me and ask me.
Maybe this has happened to many of us that are consultants. Could I pick your brain? How did you do this? Mm-hmm. How do you do that? Like, all the questions, right? How do you sustain a group? What do you do around hiring? How about billing? You know it turned into like, can I pick Your brain? Became more and more frequent and I was like, mm-hmm.
Zoom and in coffee shops and just really trying to help people with little nuggets of growing their practice. And I realized, i'm a clinical supervisor too, and I, I'm a teacher at heart and so I love to empower and help people, but I needed to put some boundaries around the picking of the brain, so to speak.
Mm-hmm. And so I decided to develop my company next level private practice. Really so that I could think more about like, who are the folks that I wanna help in consulting? What does that look like? What are those offerings? And really just to put some boundaries up for myself, for my own sanity.
Mm-hmm. Because I was already working really hard as a clinician and a supervisor and a practice owner. So what is this consulting piece and size sort of look like for me? So that's, that's essentially how Next Level was born. Mm-hmm. Really as a result of the ask for my own community. Right. So that's, that's how that unfolded.
Yeah.
Gordon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that, that story sounds very familiar and that's much of the same thing that happened to me as well. Mm-hmm. You know, in starting the practice of therapy and so, yeah. Yes. So it's evolved and yeah, just same kinds of things
Rachel: and I don't know that we, I didn't set out, I don't know if you set out to be a consultant, but it kind of, it, it evolved out of that need.
Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.
Gordon: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Yeah. Well, and, and, and too, like you, I, I, I love being able to help people with those things, but yeah, like you said, setting some boundaries around that. You know, being, being being paid for your time, your time is worth a lot with the knowledge that you have.
Rachel: Yes.
Yes, absolutely. And I think that we lose sight of that sometimes, like the value mm-hmm. Of our time. And I know in the beginning, especially with consulting, I was very caught up in the, well, I just wanna help people. And like people would email me and say, Hey, can you answer a quick question? But really the questions were like an hour talk.
Mm-hmm. And trying to differentiate when can I answer a quick question versus when do I say, mm-hmm. Hey, that's a consulting hour and just mm-hmm. Trying to navigate that. That whole thing. Right. I think that's a whole other, but like sure. It was challenging, right? It was challenging to figure out how to do that and how to put the value of how much you charge and, and things of that nature, because it was really like a whole new world.
Yeah.
Gordon: Right, right. Yeah. That's, yeah. Whole, whole thing. Well, I know one of the things we were, were talking about before we started recording is just how you've been able to kind of incorporate or do incorporate. Kind of your clinical thinking with what you do with your staff and what you do with yourself and all of that kind of thing with using internal family systems, IFS.
And so te tell us your ideas around that and how, what you've learned.
Rachel: Yeah, so the, just to give a, a short context about the IFS journey, I. Didn't know a lot about IFS several years ago, the model started blowing up post COVID because it was the first time folks could access IFS training in a virtual format.
And so mm-hmm. The training just blew up. It's, it's incredibly popular. There's, there's a wait list. It's very expensive. There's just, there's so much around accessibility to getting trained in the model, but, which is a whole other thing. But I was led there through, becoming EMDR certified. I was an EMDR consultation, really trying to get that model down and I had a consultant say like, you, you need to do parts work with this person before you move forward with EMDR.
And it was, it was this moment. Like, well, what's that? What do you mean? And so it led me to research IFS and eventually do the IFS level one training. And I was a little frustrated Gordon. 'cause I was like, well, I, I've already like trained in this, this other model and paid all this money and. Now you're telling me I have to go learn it.
So that's really why I learned the model so that I can help my EMDR folks just for a little bit of context because Right, right. It's a bit of a wild story. Mm-hmm. So I go into level one not knowing a lot about IFS, and you know, you go to any training and you think, oh, I'm gonna go listen to lecture, I might do some practicing, and you know, I'm gonna be taking notes and maybe I'm gonna.
Tune out some of the time 'cause how, how much information can I take in, in, you know, an eight hour day? But what really happens in level one is it's a lot about getting to know yourself and your own parts, and it's a lot of discovery around. If you haven't thought about yourself through a parts framework, it's really getting to know yourself in a new way and it's very, very, very vulnerable.
Mm-hmm. And you're very vulnerable in front of a group of therapists, which is even felt, even, you know, harder. And I learned so much about myself and like the parts of me that come up when I'm in situations like this where I have to practice or perform or. Where I don't know what I'm doing. This is a new model.
This is, this is like slippery. This is like, ooh, like what comes up for us. I think about what comes up for new therapists that we're trying to mentor or train when, they first get started, you know, what comes up for us when we don't feel like we know what we're doing. That was like all of level one for me.
Mm-hmm. And it was a really, actually a really difficult, intense time. Mm-hmm. And I don't know how much of the model I actually learned because I was learning so much about me. But fast forward to. Doing a lot more consultation, training in IFS and also I have to name because I think it's so important, I don't know how much we name this in the therapist circles, the importance of doing our own work.
Mm-hmm. I've done a lot since and I've done a lot of therapy in my life, but since becoming trained in the model, just. I've been a, a client in the model with an I therapist, and it has just been so incredibly helpful in every role that I play. Mm-hmm. And so I can't say enough about it, about the value of the model and so would it be helpful for me to transition a little bit into mm-hmm.
How that's shown up in my own clinical work or as Sure, sure. Yeah. Okay.
Gordon: Yeah.
Rachel: So I, I started noticing, I guess as a group practice owner, I started noticing that there were things in my practice that I was sort of avoiding. One of those was high conflict conversations with my team. And when I say high conflict, I just mean like hard convos, right?
Like someone is mm-hmm. Not doing what they're supposed to be doing or any sort of conversation that brings in conflict or people can really challenge you. I noticed I was avoiding those conversations. Mm-hmm. Which isn't good for business. Right. Right. Yeah. And I realized there was like this sort of people pleasing part that I had in my system that wanted more, more than anything, to make everyone in my group happy, to make everything peaceful.
And that really wanted to create an environment that was different, that wasn't a CMH or a system or a state government or an agency. But that was a place where people were respected and felt valued and Right. I really wanted to. Which I do hope, Gordon, that I have created that.
Gordon: Yeah. Right, right.
Rachel: But there wasn't balance.
It was all there's this people pleasing part of me that wants to make everyone happy and therefore I'm not addressing some of those issues that I should be. And so that was one of the first things I noticed after IFS training and I really had to get to know that people pleasing part of myself and part of the model is.
Well, why do these parts do what they do? Why do they show up when they show up? Like mm-hmm. And IFS says, well, they show up to protect you, but the, the key is like, but what are they protecting me from? What is this people pleasing doing for me? What is it actually protecting me from? And I had to learn like so much about that.
So that's like one, one good example of how a part showed up as a practice owner and. Clinically as a therapist, we really start to notice and, and we can talk about it like it's transference and countertransference, but when we start to really think about, we have certain clients in the room with us and we might feel some activation.
We might feel anxiety or fear, or maybe we're tuning out, maybe we're getting bored. I mean, we hate to admit that this would ever happen, but it does. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. But we start to notice like. I started noticing moments in as a clinician where I wasn't completely present and really connected and really tuned into my client.
And so I started getting really curious about why is this happening, when it's happening, and like what do I do about it? But I was just like so much more aware, like, Rachel, you're getting knocked out of that presence. That is so important when certain clients are in the room. And so what do we do here?
And IFS just helped me. Like, think about that really explicitly and just be so much more aware of mm-hmm. When my part showed up in that, in what I sort of call the therapy chair. Right, right. So that was so transformational as well. And it it, I also use a lot of the concepts in clinical supervision and I asked my supervisee as well.
What are you noticing is happening? And it's okay if you're activated. 'cause guess what? We all get activated, but Right. You have to get curious about it and we have to. Mm-hmm. We have to try our very best to be as present as we can and hold space for our clients. That's what we do. So if we're not, we have to figure out why.
Right. So just some examples of how I've infused a model into my work and also in my consulting with other practice owners and identifying. Mm-hmm. Some of their parts that are coming up and I, I'll name some of mine and they'll go, wait a minute, you have parts come up? And I'm like, yeah. Mm-hmm. When we're running practices and we're managing people and we're leading, a lot of activation is gonna come, especially when things aren't going well, or a curve ball is thrown our way.
Gordon: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Well, yeah, you know, I'm just, I, I'm grinning because you know, it's, it's interesting how that you mentioned the people-pleasing I've yeah. I, I've recently started with a new thera working with a new therapist for myself and mm-hmm. That was one of the big things I said. I, you know, I'm a recovering people pleaser.
Yeah. And so I, that's the thing that I need. I need to be more and more. I need to really tune into that work for myself. Mm-hmm. And recognizing how it, it has, you know, it you know, the depth you mentioned parts, just how does that come out and what is it that brings that up in me and what is it, you know, what's the purpose it's serving for me and Yeah.
Yeah. And so that's just really fascinating stuff. Yeah.
Rachel: Yes. And it, it, it I noticed that one of the first part that I really kind of labeled as a part for myself or got to know was what IFS sort of calls the inner critic. And I think we all have the inner critic. We all have a version. Sure. But it would be this part that would come up kind of right here in this ear, and it would kind of just like relentlessly.
Why didn't you get this done and, and why didn't you do this quicker? And, and, and what's wrong with you? And it, it has like a who do you think you are? Like why do you think that you can do all these things and it mm-hmm. It, sometimes it's, it, and some people will experience like the voices of people that were critical to them in the past, sort of morph into their own inner critic.
Mm-hmm. Like I hear my mom, you know, criticizing me in my head, it's super common with a critic. But I started at first, I remember in therapy my, 'cause one of the things we ask in IFS is, so how do you feel toward this part? Like, how do you feel toward it when you actually know it's there? When you think about your people pleaser, it's like, how do you feel toward that people pleaser?
How I felt toward my critic was like, well, I, I, I hate it. Like I don't want it around. Mm-hmm. I don't want some relentless voice in my head. Bashing me when I make a mistake, and I remember my therapist saying, I think there's a part that like hates the critic, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because our reports will like ping pong or.
Or E listed each other. And some of our parts work together and some are in very different camps and are in opposition of each other. And I thought, wait, what do you mean? I have a part that hates the critic and my mind was like, blown. Mm-hmm. But in getting to know to actually connecting and getting to know this critic, I've realized this critic's been all around a long time and most of our parts are, have historically been around a long time.
And its role is to like. Sort of stop me in my tracks so that I don't fail, so that I don't make mistakes so that I don't be vulnerable. I mean, it has a really harsh way of doing it. Mm-hmm. But it feels like if it brings all that to the surface that I will stop. And if I stop. If I don't move forward, say with an idea or whatever, I won't fail at it.
Mm-hmm. Because there's, it fears a lot about me failing because when I fail, then that means I'm not good enough. Right. So there's like, so it just, it goes deeper down into the dirt, like down into those like negative core beliefs. And once I realize like that's what it was trying to protect me from mm-hmm.
Then I could have more compassion toward it. Like, oh, I get it. Like I get, okay, I get you. It's like, here's me talking to my critic. Okay, I get you. I get why you're here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I understand. You know, like you think if you say these things to me, you know, it kind of reminds me of like sometimes in like the coaching world with athletes where you have coaches that are like Uber, uber critical, that somehow will motivate the athlete to do better.
That's how, that's how it, that was my parallel with my critic. I was like, I see what your strategy is.
Gordon: Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. And I get that like, in some ways that could be effective, but it's also harmful, it's also hurtful for me. Mm-hmm. And so part of IFS like the journey is getting to know your parts really well and then having them trust you and having them trust that like.
I can put my foot out there and be vulnerable and I might fail, but it doesn't mean anything bad about me if I do. And once they can start to trust that, then they can, it's almost like you can renegotiate what they do and what they don't do in your system. You have a lot more choice about what parts lead when, if that makes sense.
So it's, it's so freeing to like connect and get to know them. And it's also very different than a lot of the ways we're trained. 'cause we're often trained. To teach clients to like, kick your part away, kick your part down the road, stop it. Mm-hmm. Tell it to shut up, put it on a shelf, put it in a box.
And a lot of model. Right. And a lot of models we're actually taught to push our parts away, not to embrace 'em and get to know 'em. Mm-hmm. And that's why this model has been so amazing for me because once I started getting to know them and started renegotiating what they do and don't do. I was able to authentically be me and I was able to lead.
Right. Which is just, I feel like it's such a gift
Gordon: that this Yeah. That's just amazing. And it is just you know, I was trying to remember, I think I've been recently been using the Calm app just to help with sleep and all that kind of thing and
Rachel: mm-hmm.
Gordon: You know, it talks about, that was one, I was listening, a meditation I was listening to recently just talking about.
The and it was around going to sleep. And the, the fact that you're awake is to be able is just embrace that, that you're awake.
Rachel: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Rather
Gordon: than trying to fight, okay, I need the awake to go away. Well, let me just embrace the fact that I'm awake.
Rachel: And maybe even add an if FS, we'd say, well, let's get curious about the awakeness.
Mm-hmm. Because like in theory, like, we're supposed to be sleeping right now. Mm-hmm. Right. Curiosity around like what. What is awakeness about for me right now? Am I, do I have like a narrative of worry running or is there some anxiety? Mm-hmm. Or am I super stressed or am I just mm-hmm. You know, like, but what the curiosity around that.
Yeah. Like embracing it, the, it's here now. Let's get to know it a bit. Right. I'll, I'll say I have trouble sleeping. I wonder what was stopping you from sleeping? Like, was there a voice in your head or did you have pain in your body? Or like, what do you think, let's get curious about what stopped you from that sleep.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Versus like, okay, you know, take some sleeping meds and, and don't look at screens. And not that like sleep hygiene isn't good uhhuh. Mm-hmm. But getting to know the parts that keep us awake. Right. Right. You know, it's, there's so much value. It's just, it's sort of a different way to look at it.
Yeah, yeah.
Gordon: Sure is. Sure is. Yeah. Well, and, and thinking about your you know, how this has affected your leadership style and just working with your, your staff and your practice, what, what has come up for you?
Rachel: Well, people will say to me often like, wow, you just show up in the room. I definitely try, try to, that we learn in, if FS is like, how do we show up authentically? We have to be what we call self-led. So if FS uses this term, like self or self energy and self is made up of these if FS calls 'em the eight C's. So things like clarity and confidence and compassion and calm and, but if we have some or all of those elements and we can notice, yeah, I feel calm right now and I can have a lot of compassion for what you're saying versus judging you. Mm-hmm. If we are self-led, we just typically are better leaders, right? Mm-hmm. Because we're leading, we're, we're, we're leading from our authenticity, from who we really are, not from parts of ourselves.
And so, mm-hmm. What I, what I notice with my team is like if the people pleasing was showing up, which it was, or some other examples would be I had this part that was really afraid to overburden my staff. So I didn't wanna give them too much because again, I didn't want them to feel like they felt in those systems, like CMH and such.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I wasn't necessarily giving them enough work to do. Mm-hmm. So I had this like guilt about giving them too much. So I wouldn't give them enough. Right. There, there wasn't balance with that. Things were balanced. Everyone, you know, I, oh, Rachel, you're such a great boss. You're so nice, you're great.
But in some instances it also meant that, I guess what I would say is I was kind of a pushover. Like I, I was taken advantage of in some cases by some of the folks that worked with me or around me, and I was too nice, so to speak. Mm-hmm. That too nice part was up. Mm-hmm. I could give lots of examples, but what I would say now is just because I know my parts pretty well at this point, and it's not perfect, I still get activated and they still take over sometimes, but I'll notice like in meetings or in interactions with my team, I'll notice.
Like when I get knocked out of self energy, I'll notice it and go, Hmm, there's a part here right now that's either criticizing or wanting to people please, or the perfectionist, I think we all have a perfection. Mm-hmm. Comes around. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I'll notice that. And sometimes it's funny because like in our meetings as as a team, I'll say.
All right, so I have this part of me that really wants to people please right now and really wants to care right now. Mm-hmm. Hold on, everybody. Let me recenter. And they, they know, they're like, okay, so I'll name, I'll name it. I'll name that the parts are in the room for my team, and I'll say something like, because we're all to some degree caregivers, a therapists.
I'll say I don't want any of you to take care of me around this right now, but I just have to name, there's a part in the room. Name it. Mm-hmm. Okay. Recenter. Right. And I, I invite them to do the same, or if I can see that like a part of them has taken over, I'll say, let's pause for a second. Like, what's, well, let's just take an inventory of what might be happening inside for you right now.
Gordon people don't always receive this really well. They'll be like, don't, don't, don't parts work me. Don't do. Yeah. But I'm like, no. Like really? Like if they're I know that this isn't like you talking, this isn't like who you are. Mm-hmm. And so I'm just wondering, like, can I support you right now?
Like I if someone, let's say someone gets really angry and they start sort of coming at me in an angry way, I might say. Hold on. Let, let's pause for a second. Mm-hmm. Because it would be easy for me to get angry too, or for it to elicit mm-hmm. You know, shut down or, because parts elicit parts in, in relationships.
And so for me to be able to just go, let's pause for a second. It seems like. You, there may be something happening for you right now, and I'm wondering if we can pause and get curious about it. And it's not always, it doesn't always go super well in that moment. Right, right. Yeah. Well, we're, well, you know, it's yeah, we're doing that versus just starting to go in.
Yeah,
Gordon: sure, sure. I, I heard recently from a friend, learning the difference between being nice versus being kind. Yeah. And being nice is more about people pleasing and trying to appease and all of that sort of thing, whereas being kind is being more, more to the point and more direct, but doing it in a kind way and not doing it in a demeaning way and that sort of thing.
And so, yeah. Yeah, that, that's been something I've been thinking a lot about here recently as well. Yeah,
Rachel: and I think there's. There's the middle ground between being so harsh and critical, like some of us have experienced from leaders we've worked for with mm-hmm. And then being a complete, like, so nice that you never challenge anyone.
Mm-hmm. And, and one of the things that comes up for me is like when I have to make changes in the practice, and I know one likes change, right? Mm-hmm. And I'll say things to the team, like, I know that change is hard, but I need you all to understand that it is my job to hold the big picture of this practice and mm-hmm.
I have to think about profitability. I have to, there's a lot of things I have to hold and think about and sometimes I'm gonna make decisions that you all don't agree with and I'm happy to hear your feedback, but I have to hold all of that. And because I do, there may be. Things that you don't like that happen, it's not like you.
Mm-hmm. Or, you know, this isn't and I'll say statements like that and people are just kind of like, whoa, whoa, I didn't think about it. You're right. Like you are the one holding the big picture. Mm-hmm. And you are the one who's responsible to make sure that we all have jobs for a very long time. Mm-hmm.
And I think it, it is kind for me to just say it. I mean, it's direct and it's true. May not agree. Right, right. But that is the nature of me being in the seat that I am in. Right. Yeah. And I'm just very like upfront about that. Where, or before IFSI may not have been as direct about that.
Gordon: Yes, yes, yes, I know.
Wow. Yeah. This is such great stuff. And you know, Rachel, I guess we better be mindful of our time. I know you've had a, a long day of doing webinars already as we're doing this, but one of the things I do want you to mention is, is you've got a conference coming up that you're sponsoring and leading, and so say more about that.
Rachel: Yeah. So with my consulting company Next Level Private practice, we are hosting the Next Level Private Practice Summit. In the fall. So we're gonna be doing this in Grand Rapids, Michigan at the end of September, 2025. And I, I will say me the reason, 'cause people are like, why are you doing a summit?
Like this is a lot of work. We're, we're gonna have 30 speakers and ces and all of the things that I think people will want to come for. But to be honest, the reason that I created the summit is because. I often crave connection and community with folks that do what I do. And I've mm-hmm. Really tried to seek out retreats and conferences and summits and events that I can attend.
And I've attended many where I can meet folks, right? Mm-hmm. And have that community. So I personally wanna bring people together for that connection and community. But I know that's not the only reason people may wanna come. Right. I know that people want answers to their private practice, questions answered.
I know that people want CEEs. I know that people wanna hear a new perspective from new speakers, and so we're gonna have all of that happening. And the other piece of it is. I really wanna invite everyone in private practice. I want, I want our solo owners represented. I don't think that they're always represented at all of our events.
And they're, they can be pretty isolated. They're working, you know, solo, our group owners, of course, like me. Or maybe just people that they're in an agency or a system and they're really wanting to enter into private practice world, but they have all these, they have all these fearful parts like maybe you and I had when we started our practices.
Gordon: Right, right.
Rachel: So much fear around billing and all these different things, finances maybe those people wanna come too just to get exposure to the world of private. Mm-hmm. It's in all of the ways that we talk about it and think about it. So we're really gonna be trying to balance or really infuse business aspects of practice, clinical aspects of practice.
So we're trying to have something for everyone. Gordon and I, again, me, my mission is to bring all of us together and give us a place to connect.
Gordon: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. What's what's the website that they can go to to find out? Register?
Rachel: Yes, absolutely. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there.
Mm-hmm. So. You can find us at next level private practice.com and on the website you will, there's a banner right at the top of the website that leads you right to the summits page. And it also can give folks a glimpse of some of the other things that I offer in consulting there on the website.
But I would love for folks to go check the website out and check out our summit. I'm excited about it. It is. Talk about parts in the room by planning your first, 'cause. I have planned, I've had successfully had some retreats on smaller events, but to plan something this big, lots of parts in the room, Gordon.
Oh
Gordon: yeah.
Rachel: Oh yeah. But, but I, but I'm excited. I'm excited and I'm excited for the folks that will be there with us as well.
Gordon: Yeah. Well, great. Well, great. Well, we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary and of course for people to find it. And, and Rachel, I, golly, this has been a great conversation and the time's just flown by, but yes.
We'll we'll be in touch again and hopefully we'll have another conversation here.
Rachel: Yes. I would love to come back and talk more about IFS anytime that you'll have me. Thank you so much for having me today, Gordon.
Gordon: Yes, thank you.
Rachel: Thank you.