Building rapport is one of those foundational therapy skills that can be easy to overlook once you’re busy running a private practice. But the way clients feel in the room with you can have a huge impact on whether they open up, stay engaged, and ultimately continue therapy.
In this episode, I’m talking with Nora Anger, LPC, about the practical ways therapists can create trust and connection from the very first consultation call. We explore what clients say makes them leave therapy, how to balance empathy with directness, when self-disclosure can help, and why the human side of therapy still matters so much.
Meet Nora Anger 
Nora Anger, MS, LPC, is a Licensed Professional Counselor with more than a decade of experience in the mental health field. She specializes in trauma, grief, anxiety, and depression, helping clients navigate difficult life transitions and experiences. Known for her warm, direct, and down-to-earth approach, Nora has a particular strength in building rapport with clients who may have struggled with therapy in the past. She earned her master’s degree from Chestnut Hill College and currently provides counseling in the greater Philadelphia area.
Building Trust Starts Before the First Session
Rapport does not begin once a client sits down in your office. It can start with the very first consultation call.
Nora keeps her initial calls relatively brief, while still making sure clients feel welcomed and appreciated for reaching out. Rather than trying to gather a client’s entire story over the phone, she prefers to save much of that conversation for the intake, where she can be present with the client and pay attention to how they are feeling.
Small details can also make a difference. Good Wi-Fi for telehealth sessions, offering water to an in-person client, showing someone where the bathroom is, and simply creating a comfortable environment all communicate something important: you are paying attention to their experience.
During the intake itself, Nora also recommends allowing clients room to tell their story rather than immediately focusing on forms and paperwork. Legal language and clinical questions may be necessary, but they do not necessarily need to dominate the beginning of the relationship.
Ask Clients About Their Previous Therapy Experiences
One of the simplest questions we can ask a new client is also one of the most valuable: Have you been in therapy before, and what did you like or dislike about that experience?
Nora has asked this question consistently over the years, and the answers reveal a lot about what clients are looking for.
One common complaint is that therapy started to feel stale. Clients sometimes feel like they are simply giving their therapist a weekly update without actually moving toward anything. There is certainly a time when clients simply need someone to listen, but there are also times when they want their therapist to challenge them, introduce an intervention, or help them look at something differently.
Another common complaint is excessive therapist self-disclosure. Appropriate self-disclosure can absolutely strengthen a therapeutic relationship, but the session still needs to remain about the client.
Clients also notice inconsistency. Frequent cancellations, interruptions during virtual sessions, or other disruptions can make it harder to establish a strong therapeutic alliance. And interestingly, Nora has also heard clients say that they wanted their previous therapist to challenge them more. Sometimes clients do not need another person agreeing with everything they say. They want someone who can compassionately help them see a blind spot.
Empathy Does Not Mean Avoiding Difficult Conversations
New therapists, in particular, can sometimes be afraid to ask difficult questions because they worry about damaging the relationship.
But avoiding those conversations can sometimes do exactly that.
Building rapport does not mean never challenging a client. It means creating enough trust that those conversations can happen safely.
Sometimes, one of the best things we can do is simply name what is happening in the room. If someone is reluctant to open up, we can acknowledge that it makes perfect sense. They are being asked to share incredibly personal information with someone they barely know.
Rather than pretending that discomfort does not exist, acknowledging it can actually make clients feel safer. Nora and I both talked about the value of naming the “elephant in the room” instead of dancing around it.
Learn the Languages Your Clients Speak
Another interesting point Nora makes is that finding your niche is not only about diagnoses or demographics. It can also be about understanding the different “languages” your clients speak.
That might mean understanding military culture and terminology when working with veterans. It might mean connecting through music, movies, spirituality, recovery, parenting, or another shared framework.
You do not need to have the same experiences as your clients, but understanding the context of their lives can make it much easier to connect with them.
If you are struggling to get a client to open up, Nora suggests spending time learning about their work, school, relationships, hobbies, or even how they spend their money. These conversations can reveal values and priorities without relying on the standard question, “Tell me about your symptoms.”
Your Humanity Is Part of the Work
We also talked about self-disclosure and the idea that therapists should be a completely blank slate.
There is certainly a need for boundaries, but sometimes appropriately sharing a piece of our own experience can help clients recognize that we understand something about what they are going through.
The key is asking whether the disclosure benefits the client.
Therapists also need to become comfortable sitting with difficult stories without reacting in ways that make clients feel judged or responsible for our emotions. Clients who carry trauma or shame may be watching closely to see how we react when they tell us something painful.
Our response can communicate, “You are safe to tell me this.”
That kind of connection is also one of the reasons the human relationship continues to matter, even as AI and other technologies become more sophisticated. Technology can provide information and coping strategies, but it cannot completely reproduce what happens when another person sits with you, understands your experience, laughs with you, cries with you, or simply makes you feel less alone.
Pay Attention to the Words Clients Cannot Find
Another powerful part of therapeutic rapport is helping clients find language for what they are experiencing.
Nora talked about how valuable it can be when a therapist is able to accurately describe an emotion a client has struggled to name. This can be especially useful with clients who may not be accustomed to talking about their internal world.
When we can put language around grief, shame, joy, fear, or another complicated emotion, clients often feel deeply understood.
Of course, we should always leave room for them to correct us. I often frame these observations with something like, “Am I in the right ballpark?” When we get it right, that moment of recognition can strengthen the therapeutic relationship tremendously.
Rapport Also Matters When Talking About Money
One part of private practice that therapists often dislike discussing is money.
Fees, cancellations, discounts, and financial boundaries can all affect the therapeutic relationship. Nora’s recommendation is to be clear from the beginning.
She also talks about being thoughtful when offering reduced rates. Rather than immediately discounting services during every consultation, she has found it meaningful to have flexibility for established clients who encounter a difficult season and genuinely need help.
At the same time, compassion has to exist alongside sustainability. A private practice has to remain financially healthy in order for the therapist to continue serving clients. Clear policies can also help prevent resentment from developing on either side of the therapeutic relationship.
Do Your Own Work
Finally, building rapport with clients requires us to pay attention to ourselves.
Our own therapy and personal work can help us recognize countertransference, emotional triggers, and the places where our experiences may begin creeping into a client’s session.
Clients are incredibly perceptive. They can often tell when we are uncomfortable, distracted, judgmental, or bringing our own agenda into the room.
The more aware we become of ourselves, the more present we can be with them.
At the end of the day, strong therapeutic relationships are not built through a perfect script or technique. They are built through consistency, curiosity, humility, empathy, and a willingness to genuinely connect with the person sitting across from us.
And sometimes, getting back to those basics can make all the difference in our private practices.
Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
And I'm really looking forward to you getting to know today Nora Anger. Welcome, Nora. Glad you're here with me.
Nora Anger: Thanks for having me, Gordon. You're such a gracious host.
Gordon Brewer: Well, you're very kind, very kind. And, um, we were chatting a little bit, and this is gonna be, I think, a good topic. And that in many ways is the way I think about it, is, uh, to s- some degree kind of getting back to some basics, but just really thinking about what it means to build rapport with clients and the importance of that.
And I think a lot of times we might forget that, that fact. But, um, Nora, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Nora Anger: Okay. So, um, I started my private practice in 2019, right before COVID, after working in community mental health outside of Philadelphia for about six years.
And through community mental health and in private practice, the most consistent feedback that I've gotten from clients is that I can build rapport, especially with resistant teens or people that have had a bad experience with the system or therapy in general in the past. So I just started including in my, uh, consultation calls, "Hey, have you had an experience with therapy in the past?
And tell me what you like and didn't like." So I've learned a lot over the years, and I think it's helpful for your audience to hear what I've learned so that they don't make the same mistakes, and they can learn how to, um, get the client from the consult call to the intake and so on.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. All right.
Nora Anger: Um-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah
Nora Anger: my compliance rate was pretty high in community mental health. I think the average is, like, 50%, and mine was around 70%. And in private practice, most people stick around after the intake, and one of my biggest referral sources is people referring their friends and family, which is the most flattering way to get referrals in my opinion.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Absolutely.
Nora Anger: Um, so I always ask, you know, "What is it?" So I'll share with your audience what I've learned. The populations I work with are, uh, mostly adults. I love working with kids and teens, but, um, I learned that after I had my little ones that I can't accommodate after-school appointments anymore.
So I think through each season every therapist learns what works for them, and right now I'm just seeing adults, mostly trauma and grief vets, first responders, people that see a lot of trauma at work. Um, so this can be a population that might have trust issues or-
Doesn't have a good opinion about therapy or maybe especially veterans.
I'm not a vet myself. My brother served, but, you know, it's important to build rapport with them. And I've done some work with Wounded Warrior Project.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So yeah, so one of the things that you mentioned that I think, uh, a lot of people find interesting, I know, like you, I started out in a, in, um, working in the nonprofit sector for a, a nonprofit organization that worked with at-risk, risk children and youth.
And you know, being able to talk to teens, particularly resistant teens that are maybe being forced to come to counseling and that sort of thing that was one of the hardest things, I think, for me, particularly as a newer therapist, to learn how to connect on that level. And so a- as you have learned about building rapport with people, what do you find I guess maybe works with that population, but just anybody that might be resistant to all of that?
Nora Anger: Definitely. So I wanted to make it structured and organized that people could walk away with skills. So we'll start with the consult call. I usually keep that pretty brief when people reach out. I tell them I'm so thankful they reached out, and I try to get them in the door after they tell me their story because I feel like once they're in the door, they just pick up on my vibe and energy and feel pretty comfortable.
Mm-hmm. But I want to learn most of their story at the intake. And again, this is all coming from a trauma-informed lens. Mm-hmm. So I feel like some of this advice might not apply to all the different types of therapists, but through the trauma-informed lens. Because I want to learn their story while we're face-to-face in person or virtually.
I do in person and virtual.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Um, I think it's important to invest in good Wi-Fi. You don't want to have a poor connection when you're working, especially with the trauma population. Mm-hmm. I think another good investment is hospitality goes a long way, so if they are coming in person, offering them a cold bottle of water on a hot day and having cough drops available.
There's nothing worse than trying to tell your life story and you have a cough attack. Um, showing them where the bathroom is. They need to feel safe and comfortable.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: So a little hospitality goes a long way. And I always ask about their past experience with counseling. Um- Mm-hmm ... at the intake, I save the forms for last.
There's s- legal jargon that can just turn them off a little bit. And I let them tell their story first, and I let them go all over the place. Mm-hmm. So I try to fill out the bio- psychosocial or the intake forms as they're telling me their story, and I try not to interrupt them too much, and I save the forms for last.
And I try not to redirect because they always apologize for going all over the place, but-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Nora Anger: um, that's just the way the intake flows.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Nora Anger: I always wanna convey humility- Mm-hmm ... and I think the best way new therapists can do that is, um, get your own experience in the client's chair. So if you haven't- Mm-hmm ... had therapy yourself, I think the best way to learn what it's like is to be in the client's chair.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: I don't use any interventions on people that I haven't used on myself or tried myself.
Um-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Nora Anger: I think it's important to know what that's like.
I don't know. Yeah. What's your feedback so far for you?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, yeah. So yeah- Great, great process ... one of the, one of the things, yeah, I think, um, a- and hopefully most of us as, as therapists are able to do this, is to really convey empathy pretty quickly in that you communicate to people just the kind of the what to me is obvious, particularly in the first sessions.
You know, one of the things I always tell clients the first time they come to see me, and I, like you, Nora, ask a lot of questions about, "Well, have you had any experience with therapy before?" And is, um, what is it, what was it like for you? Was it a good experience or a bad experience?
That sort of thing. And, and one of the things that I always say to people is, I really recognize that coming and talking to a perfect stranger about very personal things wouldn't be on anyone's top 10 list of things to do, and so I admire you for being here." Definitely. And that just you can just see their body language just change when you mention that.
Kinda name the elephant in the room, which is just the, the angst of sharing very deep information with somebody that you don't know well.
Nora Anger: Definitely. Yeah. And I'm curious to hear what you've learned over time of why people have left their last therapist, 'cause that's-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah,
Nora Anger: mm-hmm ... that's what I'll ask.
I'll say, "Oh, what are the reasons why you didn't like your last therapist?" Mm-hmm. And here's what I consistently hear. Mm-hmm. So number one is the weekly check-in, or that it- Mm ... got stale They basically felt like they plateaued, um, and that they were either just, like, gossiping or just going through their week, but they weren't doing any work.
Mm-hmm. So I think all of us therapists are trying to find the balance between is this an intervention day, do we wanna get down to work, or is this going to be a day where you really just need a listening ear? Mm-hmm. And I just try to be transparent. I say, "Let me know-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Nora Anger: what you need today. What do you want out of your-" Yeah
session today?"
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Um, I think you have to set the pace with people who have never done therapy and they have no experience with it, with experiential stuff. And again, this is, like, trauma informed. I wouldn't tell anybody to close their eyes and take deep breaths if I just met them, it's their first time in counseling, and we're in, like, the first four sessions.
That can make people- ... pretty uncomfortable.
Gordon Brewer: I
Nora Anger: have to read the pace for doing experiential work.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Another reason why people- Left their past therapist, they've reported that they talked about themselves too much.
Gordon Brewer: Interesting.
Nora Anger: So I think you know, building rapport is trying to find, like, how much self-disclosure is beneficial.
Mm-hmm. Um, you have to have your ego in check. Mm-hmm. Uh, you need to make sure that you're not going in there with an agenda. And sometimes we read people wrong. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts on that in your experience?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, that's, um... Yeah, it's interesting. Um, you mentioned self-disclosure, and one of the things, you know, um, most of us get trained in graduate school is the whole blank slate kind of approach of not really doing a lot of self-disclosure.
But one of the things in particular that I've learned is that doing a bit of self-disclosure gives you a whole lot more credibility with people, particularly if you've had a life experience that is somewhat similar. You mentioned doing grief work and grief therapy, uh, which is an area that I consider myself kind of a specialist in as well.
But also, I've experienced the loss of a spouse, and so I know what that's like in my own experience. Mm-hmm. And I think when people hear things like that, they think, oh, they really get it. And you mentioned veterans. I'm not a veteran either, but that's another area in which you have to be, when I say self-disclosure, of being able to say, "Look, I can't imagine what you've gone through in the heat of battle."
Yeah. "And I just want to recognize that I know this is probably very hard to talk about." Um, the other thing too is with people, um, you see this a lot with first responders and veterans and that sort of thing is is that the stuff they have experienced feels so horrific to themselves that they want to protect others from it.
And so they won't share those details and the things that they need to process. And so I think being able to reassure that, okay, whatever you tell me is not gonna do me any harm. Yeah. I mean, I'm, and I'm not gonna have any other opin- I'm not gonna have a poor opinion of you because of you doing things that maybe- Con- have a conflict for yourself, w- you know, morally or whatever I'm not gonna judge you for that.
And so I think, those kinds of reas- reassurances are, go a long way.
Nora Anger: Definitely. And I think that comes with experience, like figuring out what self-disclosure is the most beneficial in its client to client. Mm-hmm. Like sharing that I'm a parent really helps. Mm-hmm. But then also comparison thinking can really turn on, especially when I'm working- Mm-hmm
with new parents and moms. So you just wanna be careful- Mm-hmm ... with what you self-disclose about, you know- Right ... parenting opinions and stuff like that. Mm-hmm ... but I feel like figuring that out comes with experience.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Um, the third reason why people say they weren't crazy about their last therapist and why this helps us have a strong rapport is try not to have interruptions and frequent cancellations.
Obviously we can't- Mm-hmm ... control everything, but I try to- Mm-hmm ... tell the therapists that I mentor it's worth the babysitter trying to make sure that you, for your virtual sessions, are not interrupted by the kids. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, a lot of people have reported like frequent cancellations, so maintain- Mm-hmm
consistency and,
Gordon Brewer: Yeah
Nora Anger: And then another main reason is just not being called out enough, and a lot of people- Yeah ... are asking for more direct- Mm-hmm ... you know, work or playing devil's advocate if they're talking about relationships. They wanna know, "Is it me?" Everyone in their life is validating them.
Mm-hmm. Their friends and family are validating them.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Um, and I think sometimes they're looking for their therapist to obviously validate them when it, when it's called for, but they also- Mm-hmm ... wanna be called out. So that's what maintains- Mm-hmm ... the therapeutic alliance in my experience. That's what people seem to be looking for or why they- Mm-hmm
weren't happy in the last counseling relationship. Mm-hmm. And again- Yeah ... aI can't, it can't laugh at our jokes. It can't offer a bottle of water. It can't nod- ... in agreement or show that you've shared the same experience or convey empathy or be tearful at good news and bad news.
So I just wanna encourage all the people in private practice that may feel like if it was all down to coping skills that they could Google- then therapists wouldn't be in therapy.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. But I- I think you're right, I think you're right is that the, there's, uh, AI can seem like it's being, building rapport by giving, you know, talking nice back to you or whatever. But you're exactly right. Until you have kind of that human-to-human contact so to speak it's really I think people will find it lacking.
And I, I agree with everything that you've said so far because I think about the pe- people that are pr- And I see this a lot when I've worked with interns early on is that they're afraid to go deep with people or afraid to ask difficult questions for fear of not, some sort of repercussion or of not being respectful, that kind of thing.
But usually those are the cases where people just won't reschedule because they don't feel like the therapist is asking the deeper questions or is pushing them enough or challenging them enough on things. Yeah. And so, yeah.
Nora Anger: Definitely, and I think it's good to, I think a lot of therapists are trying to figure out their niche if they haven't figured that out yet, and something they can try that I tell people I'm mentoring is, Try to explore all the different languages you might speak, and I don't mean English and Spanish.
I mean, like, like working with veterans, I've had to learn all the military acronyms. Or, um, maybe you speak music really well or movies really well, or you can build rapport by, um, if you know the 12 steps if you're in sobriety or or the religion you practice or there's just different languages that you might be really good at speaking.
And then you should also- Mm-hmm ... probably know your blind spots. Um-
Gordon Brewer: Right ...
Nora Anger: and then for those clients that therapists have that they feel like they can't crack, um, they can't get them to open up, they feel like-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Nora Anger: end of session and they're not saying much-
Gordon Brewer: Right ...
Nora Anger: um, good opening questions is I think it's really worth spending an entire session learning about the context of people's jobs.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: If they work.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Nora Anger: Um, a lot of people in their support system might not even know the ins and outs of their job or the characters at their work.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Um, so you'll be surprised at how many people will really open up and you can learn a lot about that.
If they don't work, then ask about school or what their ideal schedule would be or what their ideal job would be.
And then if you feel like a client is withholding important information and you still wanna maintain rapport but maybe they're like resistant I think framing questions in a way that's saying like, "What is your relationship with coping skills that haven't worked for you? Tell me about them." Or-
For all the therapists that use acceptance and commitment therapy, when they're doing that values assessment to see what's important to the client, um, if the client can't figure that out, if they're like, "I don't know what I value," or, "I don't know where I wanna put my time and energy," you can ask them- Mm-hmm
"Where do you spend your money? What's your relationship with money?" Their bank account can reveal a lot about their hobbies or how they spend their time, and is that aligned with their goals?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Nora Anger: So those are just kind of like unique ways to try to get them to open up if they just feel so confronted with, "So tell me what your symptoms are."
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's, um, yeah, being able to speculate what it's like for them, which you alluded to earlier. I remember when I did work with teens, although I don't work with any children, anybody under the age of really 17 or 18 now as I, I tease people and say my d- my daughter pointed out to me when she was little that I sucked at playing Barbies, so connecting with the littles is not something that I, that I, I necessarily have the gift for.
But, um, anyway, I, I remember working with some young adults and, maybe late teens and just saying to them, "You know, I can only im- you know, imagine what this is like. You're being forced to come to see me," particularly in those cases. "And for you to just come in here and spill your guts to me would just be crazy, 'cause you don't know me, and you don't have any reason to trust me."
And so just being able to label kind of those obvious things, kind of the elephant in the room, I think goes just a long way in building rapport. And usually they, it come, comes around. You know, there's a, a... I had a client years ago that, uh, young lady that was, um, she was probably, early teens, probably 13, 14, something like that when I first started seeing her.
Yeah. And again, it was one of those trauma situations, and here she wa- she was, uh, a black, she was a brown-skinned, person, and she was brought to this old white guy for counseling. And, and I said... I remember saying to her, "You know, here you are, this Black young lady, and they're making you come see this old white guy.
What's up with that?" Yeah. And so ever since that, it just became- kind of a inside joke between us.
Nora Anger: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: And to this day, I run into her, uh, at the place that she works, and she's just really excited to see me when I come through the door. We're no longer... I referred her out to a woman be- because she had some really d- deep sexual trauma she needed to talk about and was just not comfortable talking with me about it, and that's, that's okay.
Yeah. And so, but yeah. But it feels
Nora Anger: good to just be transparent about the elephant in the room. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'll just be direct and, like, your experience as a male and you're talking to a woman about sexual trauma, t- I understand that might be uncomfortable. I just be direct about it.
Yeah. And they feel so much better when you just lay it out.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Nora Anger: And I just remind them, this is what I do for a living and-
...
Nora Anger: Talk to people about this all day long, so nothing you say- Right ... is gonna surprise me. Um-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: I think, I'm from a big Irish Catholic family. I have, like, 60 first cousins.
There's not too many personality types I come across that I haven't- ... encountered before.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: I'm lucky- Yeah ... that I'm just not threatened by different perspectives. I'm not easily offended, so I think people can sense that hopefully, and it makes them feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. I want them to feel like- Yeah
they can just talk about, say whatever they
Gordon Brewer: want. Right. Yeah. And I think, I think too, you know, one, one thing, um, Nora, that, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, is clients that come to you that maybe have had some stuff happen for them that they feel a lot of shame around.
Nora Anger: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: And, um, either stuff they done themselves or stuff that's, um, part of their past or part of their trauma, and I think a lot of times they, people will tend to test us to see how we're gonna respond- Yes
to things. And, you know, if, um, I think if we, if you have kind of a cool response to things, that builds credibility and also rapport with people. I had a, again- That's
Nora Anger: such a good point ...
Gordon Brewer: yeah. I, I had a, um, a, a client some time ago who, um, when he was a kid, he ended up he actually caused his I think it was a, I can't remember the exact details, but caused one of his siblings to die.
He'd thrown a, there was a, a gun, and he didn't know it was loaded, and he was a little kid, and he shot his brother. And so, um, you know, when he presented that to me, he just said, "Yeah, when I was a kid, I, I shot and killed my brother." I mean, he just said it that- Kind of- Like bullet points ... and, and- Yeah
yeah, yeah. 'Cause comedy is trauma. And so it
Nora Anger: was- They just... Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: A- and I think the whole reason he said that is he was looking for my, my reaction to it to see, and I said, "Oh, wow that's a pretty tough thing." And if I had responded, "Oh my God, I can't believe that happened," you know, and just made it- Yeah
real dramatic, I would've lost him. And so- Yeah, they're trying- ... those are things that- ...
Nora Anger: to sense if you're gonna be shocked.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: Yeah, definitely.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Nora Anger: Um, and I think a lot of clients across diagnoses, across whoever you're working with or whoever your population is, they are just so receptive and appreciative of our ability to describe emotions really well.
And if, you know, you feel like you're not great at that yet, I think Brene Brown's book Atlas of the Heart really helped me with that. Um- Because sometimes when they can't find the words, especially my veterans, like they're not used to talking their, about their emotions typically. When I can finish a sentence with a very specific word, it's so helpful for them because then they don't have to- Mm-hmm
so much energy into it. Mm-hmm. And I think in that book she talks about your people's relationship with shame, which is very relevant to trauma work, and- Mm-hmm ... people's relationship with joy. And that opens a lot of doors and conversations. People actually have a complicated relationship with joy.
Mm-hmm. People feel guilty for being happy if something terrible happened to them, or if they have survivor guilt, or if they're grieving. Mm-hmm. They're like, "When am I allowed to experience joy?" Yeah. So I think that's a good time investment if you can get really good with your emotional language if it feels a little rusty, and that- Right
Brené Brown bro- book helped me
Gordon Brewer: with that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Being able to convey to someone that you understand their inter- internal world, and be able to put language to that is, you know... And that, that's just when that, that, that's when the switch occurs and you're able to say, "You know, I can imagine for you," da, da, da, da, da, "and this must be, is it kinda like this for you?"
And you describe it, and always end those questions with them, "Oh, am I in the right ballpark? Am I close to what this must be like for you?" And if you nail it-
Nora Anger: Yeah, as long as
Gordon Brewer: it's accurate ... yeah. And if you nail it, then that's, you've built rapport right there.
Nora Anger: Yeah. Mm. Definitely.
How have you dealt with clients that you feel like you weren't clicking with right away?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's always a tough one, and I think part of it is, like you said is kinda going at their pace with things. Not forcing an agenda, but at the same time, uh, being able to, Give some push to things in a gentle way of being able to say, "Yeah, it doesn't make sense that you would come in here and tell me a whole lot right at first, because you don't know me-" Yeah
and you don't have any reason to trust me. And so, um, so let's just take this slow and-" That's right "... and figure this out together." Yeah.
Nora Anger: Yeah, I only ask because I feel like we're the only industry that has this gap where we feel like we can't ask for feedback or, like, customer satisfaction. Sometimes it doesn't have a discharge. Sometimes we're just left wondering why someone didn't come back or-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Nora Anger: if they didn't like their experience. Um, there's not a lot of opportunities for us to ask what went wrong. It's almost like a breakup.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, and I think, um, being able to also let people see that you're human as well you know, and that you experience emotions.
You mentioned earlier being able to cry with people in a session. You know, somebody tells something really sad or s- really heart-wrenching, is to be able to say, "Well, this makes, for me to hear this makes me sad for you." Yeah. Kind of thing. And so being able to, convey those things as well.
Nora Anger: Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. And then I guess the stuff that no therapist likes to deal with with private practice is money and fees and maintaining rapport. Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Um,
Nora Anger: and I don't have a lot to say on that. I just, my advice is being clear from the beginning.
But also, I think a lot of us wanna remain accessible to as many people as possible, right?
Mm-hmm. And a lot of us do maybe pro bono work or deep discount stuff, and my advice to people who are just doing private practice with that, um, I've learned to not offer pro bono or deep discounts from the jump, from the consult call.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Nora Anger: But wait until one of your current clients is, falls on hard times- and then you can really help them out. Like, I had a client who was on unpaid maternity leave, but she was so, consistent, never had cancellations. She was my client for two years, and I saw her for-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Nora Anger: almost free for her entire maternity leave. And that's the stuff people remember, and those are the reasons why people are like-
"Oh, it was great," and send their friends and family 'cause they'll remember that. Right. Sure.
Gordon Brewer: Sure.
Nora Anger: Um, since you work with grief too, you probably have clients that you know, are retired and people just living on Social Security, and I try to help them out too.
...
Nora Anger: If people are saying- Hey, I don't need to do hour long sessions every week or every other week at this point, but the, the frequency helps, but I can't afford it, or-
I've helped out neuro- neurodivergent clients who say, "I feel like we covered a lot of the important stuff, but the accountability is what mattered. Can I do-"
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm "...
Nora Anger: half-hour sessions every week?" I try to be flexible about people's- Mm-hmm ... schedules and budgets, um, because that's part of the business part.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Nora Anger: And I feel like that's- Right ... the stuff we don't learn in grad school.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. It's finding-
Nora Anger: But you've got to learn experience.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah, find, finding that balance of being able to have compassion for people and understanding their circumstances, and then but at the same time we have to make a profit.
We have to, to be able to sustain what we do. Otherwise we're not gonna be there for anybody. Um- Definitely ... and so yeah, and so I think that's an important piece to remember as well, so
Nora Anger: yeah.
Gordon Brewer: And so again-
Nora Anger: And you wanna prevent resentment. You... if like, if the rapport's gonna go both ways, then you just want to prevent resentment around-
Gordon Brewer: Yeah
Nora Anger: fees and cancellations- Yeah ... and stuff like that, and be clear from the beginning and...
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Sure. And I think too is something else you mentioned a, a little bit a wh- a little bit ago was the importance of doing your own work and doing your own therapy. Because I think, That's, when we think about countertransference and being triggered by clients and all of that kind of thing, that's where your own self-work can really come in and be a, a big help to, to- Yeah
what you do as far as building rapport. And so, yeah.
Nora Anger: Yeah, and I wonder, um, I wonder for, clients that have said, "Yeah, the, my last therapist talked about themselves too much," I wonder if that therapist- Mm-hmm ... was struggling with maybe they- Mm-hmm ... their own time and their own- Mm-hmm ... their dump their
Gordon Brewer: stuff.
Right, right. Yeah. Bring
Nora Anger: it to the session.
Gordon Brewer: Sure, sure. Well, Nora, I've gotta be respectful of our time and your time, and, um, this has been a great conversation, and I hope that we can continue it. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they'd like to talk with you more and learn more about what you do.
Nora Anger: Sure. So my website's, um, www.noraanger.com, and then I'm also on Instagram, and I have a business Facebook. It's Nora Anger LPC. Um, and the best way to get referrals to me is my email, which is nora.angerlpc@gmail.
Gordon Brewer: Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for folks to find it easily.
So, well, Nora, hope we can meet again sometime and have another conversation. This was great.
Nora Anger: Thank you so much.
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