The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so happy for you to meet Jordanne Sculler and Jordanne.
So glad you're here.
Jordanne Sculler: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, so Jordanne is in New York and has a, a private practice there with a few other therapists that are in with her. Yes. But Jordanne, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Jordanne Sculler: Sure. So just a little bit about how I even got to be a therapist maybe would be interesting for everyone to know. Being a therapist is something that I've always wanted to do. It's how I always saw my life going, but I honestly thought it would be a second career for me, maybe after having kids.
Something I pursued way later in my life. And after graduating from. College. I went to the George Washington University in Washington, dc and I was a communications major. I started working at a marketing firm and about a year into working in marketing, I went through a little bit of a traumatic experience in my life.
And in that moment I said. I know what I need to do. I need to start fulfilling what I've always wanted to do, which is be a therapist. So pretty instantly I quit my job, explored what it would take to get into a program where I could become a therapist, and I began visualizing what I wanted my life as a therapist to look like.
And here I am almost. Seven years later, I have my own private practice in New York City. I'm licensed in both New York and New Jersey. And I absolutely love being a therapist. I feel so grateful that I get to come to work every day and connect with my clients. It, it's such a meaningful, meaningful job.
I began on my own just working with my. With my own clients. And then I really started to love being a supervisor, which is when I started to take on other clinicians at my practice too. Mm-hmm. And I help my clinicians that work with me grow as therapists themselves, which is a passion of mine as well as help them build their caseloads.
So it's absolutely wonderful and I continue to love it and learn every day.
Gordon Brewer: Sure, sure. Well, that, that is such an interesting, interesting story and you know I think most of us that go into this profession probably do, tend to go into it based on what we have learned about ourselves or even our own struggles at different times in our lives of just really wanting to, you know.
Pay it forward, so to speak. With, with everything, for sure. Yeah. And
Jordanne Sculler: I, I remember when I was in school a professor of mine said Every therapist should be in therapy, right? Mm-hmm. Constantly. Mm-hmm. Continuing to learn about themselves. And I have found, when I am in my own therapy, I am for sure my best version of myself as a therapist.
Gordon Brewer: Absolutely.
Jordanne Sculler: And the analogy he used was, would you ever take a cooking lesson from someone who doesn't cook?
Gordon Brewer: And I
Jordanne Sculler: think it's so spot on. Yeah. So, yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Oh yeah. Right.
Jordanne Sculler: So it's continuing to learn about yourself as well. Right, right. So we've all been through so much and always evolving and growing as well.
Gordon Brewer: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. There's no as we all know, there's no end to point to any of it. It's, it's a constant growth and a constant way of, of, you know, being as, as much as anything. So For sure. So, yeah. So what, what areas is your practice specializing in and what are kind of your typical clients?
I.
Jordanne Sculler: Yeah. So I would say what sets my practice apart and how I built my practice is this very relationship focus that I use. So I'm a psychodynamic therapist. The clinicians that work for me are all psychodynamic based as well. But we use very holistic views, so I of course will sprinkle in some CBT.
I really love narrative work with couples. I love sprinkling some imago type therapy. But I think what sets us apart again, is how we have this focus on relationships. And I believe that working from this relationship type lens where. We see that relationship affects every other part of our life. And building out from how can we.
Ourselves, look at ourselves and not point fingers at the people in our lives who then work to shift our lives and make our ourselves feel so much better. Is kind of this lens in which I work. I work with individuals and couples romantically, and then I also work with parent child relationships.
I work with sibling relationships, friendships. And then the other thing that I think is really cool is just looking at everything as relational, right? So maybe it's the relationship you have with money, the relationship you have with your job, the really relationship you have with your body. So anything can really be a relationship.
And I think the other thing just to point out that Seth. Me as well as my practice apart, is this very tough, yet compassionate approach that I use. Mm-hmm. So I pretty much from the start with my clients, I let them know that it might not be for them, but I work in a very challenging way where I provide pushback.
But it's a very strong. Bond and relationship I have with my clients that allows for that challenge to feel really safe and supportive. So I think it's that balance as well that makes for a really, really cool dynamic between client and therapist.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I could see how that would be really appealing to a lot of folks because I think, like it or not, and we get trained in our training. We're trained not to do this, but I think ultimately people are coming to therapy for, for advice or some kind of direction about how to change that sort of thing. And so I think that approach is, is very helpful probably for a lot of people.
Jordanne Sculler: Right.
Because if we're not looking at ourselves, right, what are we really coming to therapy for? You know, I, I know there's I hear a lot of complaints about maybe therapists that are too, too validating or people that just sit there and shake their head. Yes. So I think it's really important for me to be extremely active and participating in the sessions with my clients.
Not necessarily giving advice because I don't love that at all as a therapist. Mm-hmm. But it is more helping create clarity in my clients' lives so they can come to it themselves and really doing that hard work to look and work.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. Well, so I know with as we were kind of chatting a little bit before, before we started recording one of the things is that you've got a pretty cool Instagram page or Instagram. Mm-hmm. And how has that played into your marketing and how do you, how do you feel like you've used that to attract your, your. Your clients.
Jordanne Sculler: Yeah, so I, I shared with you as well when we started talking about that, it's, it's interesting 'cause Instagram, any social media for me is actually something I was really against when I first started my practice.
There's something about being a very old school therapist that I hold really close to my heart. I'm definitely, you know, on the younger side, but I myself love this very. Personable unique connection that I think an old school in quotes mm-hmm. Therapist has with their client, where it just feels so much more, I think personal is the word.
Mm-hmm. So I was very against it. And then I would say a few years later, someone said to me, you really just gotta try it. And it, it felt so unnatural to me, but I was like, you know what? I'm gotta practice what I preach, right? Mm-hmm. Making myself uncomfortable. Just because it hard, just because it, it's hard, doesn't mean it's something that I shouldn't do.
Mm-hmm. So I started posting some videos about things that I feel really passionate about, things that I see coming up with individuals and couples in sessions, often themes that I thought might reach people and might find other people might find helpful. And. People definitely started to see my posts.
I would say it became at first, like people I know personally were sending my posts mm-hmm. To people and then it was kind of trickling out that way. And then the other thing I use Instagram for is somewhat of a resume. So I, you know, anything I do from a marketing or PR standpoint, I like that to live on my Instagram page.
Mm-hmm. That. Potential clients looking to come to my practice, if they're looking at my Instagram is kind of just another touch point of this is work I've done and this is what I'm about as a therapist.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. I I think that's you know like you, when I, when we first old school as well, probably.
Mm-hmm. I've been around a while with, with my practice, but I know when social media started to really take hold, there was a lot of debate about whether or not a therapist should or should not have a, you know, some sort of profile on, on some on social media, and there were some, you know, kind of old school people.
This is absolutely not, you know mm-hmm. Opening yourself up for lawsuits and all this kind of stuff. And but the truth is, in, in this, in, in the world we live in now, it's really how people find us. Mm-hmm. If you think about it that way. Absolutely. Yeah. So besides social media, what have you found helpful in marketing your practice and I would, I would imagine being in Manhattan is pretty competitive with there's therapists in every corner.
Very, yeah,
Jordanne Sculler: very. Yeah. I was gonna say that when I, the first marketing, you know, I guess opportunity that I tried was doing more of the, like Google ad, SEO type stuff. Mm-hmm. I, I really know so little about it, so excuse the, the language that I'm using. But what I was finding is yes, I had a ton of inquiries coming in, but they weren't the right clients for my practice.
Mm-hmm. And so I was spending so much time doing consultation calls. With clients that were not sticking. And it's frustrating, right? Because you're working hard, you're taking the time to do this, and it's, it's not paying off. So eventually I pivoted to working, working with a marketing agency. They were amazing.
They were, who helped me set up my Instagram, helped me kind of create more of an angle of like what I should be talking about on social media, what people wanna hear. That was really helpful. And now I work with someone in PR and, and I'm finding that to be really helpful as well. Mm-hmm. Because I'm actually getting opportunities to use my voice as a therapist in ways that I actually never even explored before.
And I'm really enjoying leaning into this new type of therapist that I'm learning that I am as well. So I think there's different types of touch points, but to be honest, the best, best. Best type of marketing you could do is referral base. Those are always going to be mm-hmm. The best clients coming in.
Yeah. The, the right clients I should say for your practice.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. What, what have who, what types of. People, do you or entities tend to refer to you? I mean, as far as what I'm I'm gonna think out loud here for a minute, Uhhuh, but you know what, this question of how do you market your practice particularly if you're in a really competitive area and I think.
You're correct. Having kind of that word, you didn't say this, but kind of that word of mouth or having those relationships Yes. With different referral sources just goes a long way. Who, how did you seek out those referral sources and who do you typically gravitate to?
Jordanne Sculler: It's definitely networking. You know, I, every now and then will give my card to a doctor's office that I feel aligns with my practice.
A friend who I think, you know, who someone might say to me, oh, my mom's daughter's best friend is looking for a therapist. Mm-hmm. You know, those types of, but. Again, I and I, I should have been more specific before my clients referring me to other people. Oh, okay. Has always been the best and, and if I'm being completely honest as well, when I'm looking for a therapist, I'm not going on psychology today and searching, searching, searching.
I'm asking someone I really trust and I'm getting a referral that way.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's that, that is so so true. I just think about, just even simple things around, you know, in life, you know, if you need a new roof or you need mm-hmm. Work done on this or that, you go to your friends and you Yeah.
I mean for,
Jordanne Sculler: I think its for, I think it's for multiple reasons, right? Like, in a way mm-hmm. You are in a way you're not, oh, no. Okay. In a way you are not, you, you don't need to do so much research, right? Mm-hmm. You, you, it's someone you trust. You're like, okay, I'm done. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you vet it yourself.
If it feels right, it feels really right because it's coming from such a trusted source.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. So at the, that this kinda leads to, I guess to me at least, kind of naturally leads to the question of, you know, what is it that you're doing in session that gets people engaged? And I know one of the things that we had, at least when we were.
Kind of chatting before all of this was I think it, you know, we like to refer to 'em as resistant clients or people mm-hmm. Willing to do the work, but there's something that you're doing that's pulling them in and, and getting them. I. You know, hooked, so to speak. Yeah.
Jordanne Sculler: Yeah. I think the first thing I definitely do is build a relationship.
Mm-hmm. And I don't, you know, just mean the surface, which of course is sometimes goes without saying with, as a therapist, of course you wanna go deep, but I think that there's a way that you can really bond with your clients and. I start that from session one. I work with my clients in a first session hearing their whole story because I want to, first of all, of course have a really nice base of who they are, but I also want to remember the names that they're using.
I wanna remember their mom's name. I wanna remember their best friend's name. I wanna remember how old their. Sister's dog is, I mean, for exa, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I don't then have to say in the next session, wait, who's that again? Or, right. So I, it's very, very important to me that I build this strong, trusted bond from the start.
Mm-hmm. And, and I really do think that. Allows people to be really engaged in the work pretty early on. And then again, what I do, you know, and it's unique to me is I really call out. I'm not afraid to push back and I make sure it's comfortable. I always check in when pushback doesn't feel.
Good to my clients. Mm-hmm. I'll always check in if a challenge doesn't feel supportive. But usually it does because of the relationship we have. They know I'm on their team. They know I'm with them and I'm going through something alongside them. I'm not against them in any way. So there's this way I help people really, really look at themselves in the mirror when they have limited capacity to do so.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I know excuse me, I know one of the things we you mentioned too was just supervising other therapists, which is mm-hmm. A lot of fun. And I think that that question comes up a lot about, you know, what are, what are questions that we can, or leading questions that we can use to kind of challenge people.
And I'm just curious how you approach that.
Jordanne Sculler: So in supervision, I really, it's kind of the same thing. I, I feel like I, first of all, I hire therapists who. I get, and, and this might sound so simple, but I get a good vibe from mm-hmm. People who I connect to, of course, talent and wisdom and the wanting the desire to learn is so, so, so important to me.
But our connection is really what has the ability to. Truly help them as a therapist, right? Mm-hmm. Because in supervision, there's some similarities to client therapists. It's definitely different, but there's definitely some similarities. So with the clinicians that I work with, it's really important to me that we also have that strong, trusted bond.
I always help the clinicians I work with as well look at themselves. So if there's something that they're feeling about a client or a question that they have about the client, I'm always curious where it's coming from. Mm-hmm. And we kind of, you know, so I, that's something else I say with my clinicians that work with me is that.
You have to be willing to be really open and honest for supervision to be really helpful. Mm-hmm. So again, I, I, I kind of hire people who have that ability and have that desire to do so. So when they're open with me, I'm able to help them see what's really going on for them in session and, and that can really help them grow as therapists.
Gordon Brewer: Sure. Sure. And when, when you're working with clients, how do you tend to, get, you know, confront them with, I guess, challenging things. How do you find, how, how do you find that, that, how does that work for you? I know it's important to do that and
Jordanne Sculler: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: If that question makes sense.
Jordanne Sculler: Yeah. I, I think, I think what you're asking is like, so how, I usually ask them in a moment where maybe they're rambling on or complaining about something or there's something going on and they're really focusing on the external.
I'll tell them to stop. I'll tell them to pause and I say, can we bring this back to you? Mm-hmm. And it's with that small transition that they realize what's going on. Right. Like that they're so looking at the external. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And how easy it is to do that. Right? Oh yeah. So my whole thing, right? I say, can we get comfortable with being uncomfortable?
Because that's where change comes in. And looking at yourself and what your part is, is so much more uncomfortable than looking at the people around you. So it's with that really small and important step that we can refocus, reframe the work. Mm-hmm. You know, when appropriate, of course. Because sometimes it is so necessary to have that moment where you're just mad or sad and it's the people around you.
But when appropriate. I will always, always bring it back to you.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that what's interesting is I I do a lot of work with couples myself. Mm-hmm. And you know, that is something that is so, and when you can do it and do it well, getting people to. Understand the difference between what I refer to as a internal locus of control versus an external locus of control.
Absolutely. And particularly in relationships. And the question that the, the thing that you mentioned is being, getting people to, to recognize what is my part in this? What am I doing that is contributing to the problems we either we're having as a couple or in, in our life or whatever. And we, we can help people connect those dots.
That's just a, a huge, huge catalyst for change.
Jordanne Sculler: Yeah. And you know, something kind of just going off of that, that I'll often say when we're bringing it back to the client themselves with couples and individuals, I share that when we do something different in our relationships. No matter how small or how big it is, if we do something different, the person we're in relationship with will almost always do something different too.
Mm-hmm. So we have Right, we can't control, we can't change the person we're in a relationship with, but if we do something different, the pattern will automatically change. Mm-hmm. So it's just like a small thing to keep in mind. But I mean, I, I've seen be so, so valuable.
Gordon Brewer: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's classic family.
Family, the family therapy theory, you know, just that whole, yeah. Systems. Yep. Systems. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's really cool. Well, well, Jordanne what's next on the horizon for you? What do you see Oh, coming up for you that's, you're excited about?
Jordanne Sculler: I definitely I, I did an event the other day that was so empowering and so inspiring, and it was actually one of the first times I did a live event like that.
And I have to tell you, I was so nervous going in. Mm-hmm. But it felt so good to connect with people like that in, in real life in a different way than you do with your clients. So I think that's a part of. My therapist self that I definitely wanna start tapping into more doing more live events with people where I get to connect with big groups of people at a time on very niche relationship focused topics.
So I think more of that. Mm-hmm. As well as yeah, just continuing to grow my practice. I don't think I want a huge group practice. I never want to mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not be a therapist and just be running a business. Being a therapist is. My passion and mm-hmm it is what I'm meant to do. So that's always going to be my focus.
But for right now, I am loving, supervising, and just enjoying the ride.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That is so cool. That's so cool. So, well, I've gotta be respectful of your time and this has just been a great, great conversation. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they wanna learn more about your work and the things that you've got going on.
Jordanne Sculler: Absolutely. So you can find me on my website@Jordannescholarlhc.com or on Instagram at Jordanne Scholar.
Gordon Brewer: Awesome. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summaries for people to find that easily. Well, Jordanne, I hope that we can have a conversation again soon.