The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm absolutely thrilled to have today, Marie Fang. Marie, thanks for coming and thanks for being on the podcast. I.
Marie Fang: Thank you so much for having me. I was so excited that you invited me on and I'm looking forward to see what we, seeing, what we end up talking about.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. It's gonna, it's always fun, I think, um, just to meet new people and have new conversations. But Marie as I, I start with everyone. Why don't you tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Marie Fang: Yeah, I know it's one of those big questions where it's like,
Gordon Brewer: uhhuh,
Marie Fang: which part of where I've landed, but I'll try to, you know, give the capsule version.
Mm-hmm. Um, maybe a little bit about how I became a therapist, uh, and how I got to here. I ended up entering the field. I decided I was gonna be a therapist when I was 14. Mm-hmm. Um, because I had severe panic disorder at the time, and. Moved through it, overcame it and thought it was amazing and incredible to just see how our minds can be so influenced.
So I was locked in at 14, no looking back, like finished graduate school 25 and started my private practice. And so I've been in private practice for, oh, 12 or 13 years now. Mm-hmm. Um, and I found it incredibly difficult to figure out how to start a private practice. There's, and especially, I mean, there's so much more information now.
You're here, there's, I love it. There's more information. Now, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily always easy, but mm-hmm. The, the baseline information just wasn't even there. Like, okay, how do I, how do people find me? I send out snail mail flyers in the mail, like I don't. I don't know how to do this. So I found myself kind of figuring it out as I went.
And then as I started having more friends start in private practice, they'd get these snags, they'd hit the same snags, and so I'd say, oh, well, no need for you to do this over again here. Here's some of the stuff I've been learning. And then I just keep kind of passing it along, seeing where they get stuck, and then kind of shifting to kind of adapt to everybody.
And after a while, I just thought. We should just share this information. It should be, it should be more available. So I started private practice skills in, in 2018, uh, which feels mm-hmm. Like a long time ago now
Uhhuh
Marie Fang: Sure. Where I, I started by teaching therapists about private practice and then the, the.
The genuine just skills for how do you do private practice, the parts outside of the clinical work that we've already learned. Mm-hmm. Um, and now over time it's kind of shifted and I speak more towards kind of aspects of the field in general that I, I, I feel like. Need more airtime maybe aren't getting talked about enough things that sort of humanize the experience of being a therapist.
Um, because yeah, the skills on starting a private practice, I mean, I've spoken about them. There's others like yourself and many others who are sharing those tools. So I've kind of shifted over the years to, to really just speak about whatever I feel like talking about.
Gordon Brewer: Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I know one of the, one of the things that we talked about are just kind of.
Picked a topic, you know, as, as we do a lot of times with podcasts is, um, just about therapist burnout. And I think, um, you know, I think, uh, just having been in private practice, uh, the length of time that I've been in it, and I'm just, uh, really age myself if I, if I disclose that. But it's, it's on the, it's, it's on the high side of 18 years.
So I mean, I've been doing That's a while. Yeah. So, but you do reach places where you just get. Tired of it or just get burned out or it just feels over overwhelming at times. And, and I know you've done some work with people around that, and so what have you learned so far about that whole topic?
Marie Fang: Oh goodness.
Yeah. I mean, where do we start? I, I think one thing that comes to mind and, and why it's a, a topic that interests me to talk about is not just because it's so common, but I think also like the nuance and the depth behind, like what can contribute to burnout is something that maybe we don't always talk about.
I think. Everyone has a clear sense of like, if we work way more hours than our body is able to work, like that's not gonna be sustainable over time. Mm-hmm. Eventually we're gonna see ourselves decline, burnout, et cetera. Of course we can cognitively understand that, but that there's variables about the work that we do, that we don't always, even within ourselves.
Acknowledge as part of our work. You know, that that time that you're spending at 8:00 PM going back in your mind and thinking like, wait, was that, was that the right intervention with that client? And oh no. Next time should I check in with my consult group? And you know, we have our internal dialogue and a lot of times we're working in our brains.
Even when we're not quote unquote working, you know, sitting with a client or write even writing notes and things like that. And so I think it's really important to kind of take a look at and acknowledge all the different ways that we are working. We're giving emotional energy, we are writing notes, even though those aren't hours that we get to.
Count most of the time as work hours, quote unquote, but they are. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, the time you spend kind of double checking that textbook or, you know, going back and revisiting a training or, that's all part of our efforts and, and we don't always, I. Talk about those things. So I like to just kind of give it airtime so that people at least can assess kind of more realistically, like how much am I actually working and how much energy output am I giving towards my work here?
And it's not always just like, how many clients am I seeing per week?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Well I think, you know, I think part of it that you know, has a lot to do with kinda your. Sometimes your personality of how you tend to work on things, and I think one of the things I know from my own experiences is that you get into this kind of routine about how you do things and how things are structured in your practice and, and all of that sort of thing.
And I think it's, it's helpful at times to, to kind of look at that part of it and begin to make some changes in the way that we do do our. Do our systems and processes and all that kind of thing.
Marie Fang: Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure if this is what you're touching on. I guess this could mean a lot of different things, but like I'm even thinking about how like AI is rolling out more and more, which is both terrifying but also fascinating.
Like there's a lot of things that maybe we had to spend a lot more time on before that we might be able to kind of reevaluate and say like, do I need to spend all this time? Or sometimes it's outsourcing things like if you're getting lost in it. Any admin type task related to your practice. Right. Right.
You know, is this something that would help you to outsource, which, you know, usually costs some money, but then you get something back also. Right. Um, so I think that, I don't know if that's kinda what you're getting at, but that's where my mind went. You said that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, um, I think that's one of the things too when I think about burnout is, is that it's not the stuff that we enjoy doing that.
It creates the burnout. It's the stuff we don't enjoy doing.
Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Um, that I think creates that for ourselves. But you know, you mentioned outsourcing and I know a lot of times people newer to private practice have difficulty with that. You wanna say something about that as, as far as maybe a mindset change with some of that?
Marie Fang: Yeah. Well, and first I wanna empathize like the, the having difficulty with that. It's sort of like, well, yeah, if everything we outsourced was completely free, then I imagine at least some good chunk of the people who are hesitant would say, oh, okay, well, if it's free, that sounds awesome. Right? So it's mm-hmm.
Ooh, I'm gonna. Feel that in my bank account. Maybe you're just starting up, or you know, even if you're not just starting up, but it's like, Ooh, I, but I, I could use that money. I wanna keep it in my pocket.
Mm-hmm.
Marie Fang: And so, mm-hmm. I mean, sometimes it can be helpful to like, break down the actual hour. Like, how much time are you spending on this admin task that you hate, and how much do you charge per client session if you outsource that, even though it's gonna cost you this much, you know.
Per hour or a month or whatever it is, might you potentially still get that money back? Mm-hmm. And also similar to like we might say, other things that are important to us, cost money. Like going to see a therapist ourselves costs us money. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But hopefully, I sure hope we're getting something back, right?
So if it feels like this is worth you know, my reduced stress levels or this. Thing that now I'm so worried about staying on top of this admin task that I don't have as much time with my family or these other personal values of mine that, um, mm-hmm. You know, I'm more grumpy when I'm showing up for those things.
Right. So I stayed up late working on this thing and now, you know, I have trouble getting outta bed and get my kids to school or whatever it is. Right. So it's helpful to take I think, kind of a more holistic approach of like, if I paid this money. Then am I gonna gain at least that much value back? Yes, yes.
That whole absolutely. You have to evaluate it in your budget. 'cause you can't just pay for it every, most of us. Most of us, right. Probably aren't gonna to pay for every single thing to be done for us either. Right,
Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. It's that whole return on investment kinda thing. And like you, like you alluded to Marie, is that if you.
If you were to outsource a particular aspect of your practice, of something that is just kind of mundane and really evaluating, okay, somebody else could do this instead of me. Mm-hmm. If that opens up another appointment slot for you, or for example. It pays for itself. Mm-hmm. Or if you get a new client because someone was able to return the call quicker than you were able to return the call again, they get, you get the, you get your money back on that as well.
Mm-hmm.
Marie Fang: Yeah. Well, and I think it, it is both that the return on investment, but there's, there's always that fear of like, am I gonna have the return on investment? So there's that moment where, yeah, if you've been doing it for a couple years, you say, oh, I got my return on investment. No brainer. But before you've actually.
Stepped out and spent that money or mm-hmm. Uh, tried out this thing that's gonna cost you something, hopefully to streamline your practice. You don't know yet if it's gonna work. So all you know that mm-hmm. Is guaranteed is it's gonna cost you some money and maybe some time, or what do you know? If you're onboarding someone to do admin for you, it's gonna cost you something you don't know if it's gonna pay off.
So I just wanna validate like it is. It's hard to make that step and say, okay, I'm willing to take that leap. So maybe a mindset too might be like, I'm willing to try this out for. X amount of time, I'm gonna try this for three months or six months. Mm-hmm. And, uh, if it, if it doesn't work out, you know, I did sink some money into it, but if it does work out, then.
Great. But I don't have to, you know, commit forever to this thing that might not work, but, you know, try run, give it a, give it a test drive and, and Right. Collect some data about it. See if it's helpful. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's great. That's great. So what are maybe some other things that come to mind for you, Marie, around just burnout and just when, you know, running a practice gets hard, I guess.
Yeah.
Marie Fang: Yeah, I have so many thoughts. So I see, I see this come up a lot too, where therapists will reach burnout levels and it can feel so impossible to come out of the burnout. That then the natural kind of next question is, you know, is this the right profession for me? Um, and of course, I. I think that should be available on the table of questions that just say, mm-hmm.
At any point, no one ever should feel trapped in this profession. Mm-hmm. And I think that's also kind of like a, a, a signal more of just how burnt out, how tired, how exhausted somebody is of like, I'm fantasizing about getting out. Right. But sometimes it can be helpful to ask more nuanced questions about like what else might be not working And, and it's.
Quite common that I'll hear from folks that maybe there's something about the type of work that they're doing or even maybe the type of workplace that they're in. You know, whether for even like if you're in a solo practice or maybe it's that you're working from home, but you're so isolated. And so speaking of RO, I return, I mean, money to rent an office, but here I'm, I'm doing it right because.
I have colleagues that I run into in the hallway and mm-hmm. You know, there could be any number of variables aside from just, is this the profession for me or not that might be contributing. So I think it could be really helpful, whether it's with consult group or your own therapist or supervisor or even just loved ones to kind of like sit down and evaluate like, what are the different aspects of the work that I do?
What do each of these cost me? And, and are any of them variables that I could potentially. Consider changing to see if that helps me feel better. And sometimes it's, you know, I'm gonna pivot from, you know, I've been working with couples, but then I went through my own messy divorce and so now maybe it's gonna help me and my mental wellbeing to pivot.
I'm gonna work with individuals now at least for a season. And that's an example, right, of just letting yourself think outside the box and see, right. Um, if there's details about the work that you're doing that might be contributing to that. Right. That exhaustion. That burnout.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think it's, um, you know, one of the things that I think you're alluding to is, um, the important of having supports in place around you, in your practice.
Yeah. Uh, of what, in whatever form that looks like whether it's a, you know, a mastermind group or whether it's, um, you know, like you said, a consult group that you meet with regularly. You know, other colleagues that can understand what it's like in the, you know, on the front lines, if you will, of the being in a therapy practice.
Marie Fang: Yes. But I, I agree so much and I know it also can be so I. Challenging. That's a question I hear so much, like how do you, how do you find people and, and so, I mean, I can't answer that for each individual person, but the, it is a deeply cherished find and mm-hmm. It, it is that space where the po you know, a place like a podcast like this, we can name these sort of high level categories that come up, but it's really in the, the, like the console groups and those sort of like safe spaces where, you know, whether it's.
Another therapist saying this to me or me saying this to another therapist in the spaces where somebody's going like, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Like there was a should and I feel like I should be able to see this many clients. Mm-hmm. Or I should be able to fill in the blank and Right. We, we carry these things and we don't even hear ourselves saying it about ourselves, and it takes somebody.
Individually listening to our story and, and hopefully gently and lovingly, but
Oh, right. Like
Marie Fang: calling it out and saying, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. There's something you said there that's not quite adding up. Um, and, and yeah. That you might not ever quite hear it that way. Right. Just kind of consuming.
Yeah. Other media that's. Not personalized, where just like how right therapy is, there's a different than a self-help book.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Right. There's a, there's a book I've been listening to lately and I wanna get the title correct. It's by ISRA Na Nasir. And the book is called Toxic, toxic Productivity.
Um, and it's, uh, it, it really kind of speaks to that what, what you said earlier about the shoulds and ought tos, and we kind of, we can. We can very quickly lay on ourselves this idea about, okay, you have to be seeing so many clients or you have to be producing so much work. Just all of that kind of thing that just we, we tend to live with.
And I think if we can be, uh, a little kinder to ourselves and give ourselves a little grace around things we can. We can take a lot of pressure off of ourselves.
Marie Fang: Yes, yes. I, yeah, I love that framework and, and maybe changing the question of rather than it being some, whatever some gold standard is that somebody has in their mind, I should see this many clients, or sometimes it's, I should offer a sliding scale that goes down this far.
So therefore now I have to see more clients in order to whatever the, the. Gold standard is that we are trying to get ourselves to meet, or maybe we're working, maybe we're not in private practice, maybe we're working for somebody else and they have that gold standard. Mm-hmm. But it might be more helpful to shift it and let the gold standard be like, okay, how much is my capacity?
Mm-hmm. And it might be different than my therapist buddy over here who is totally good saying 30 clients a week. Maybe my capacity is 12. And you know, how, how can I make sure I build. A career that fits me and just be more accepting that you are you and it's okay. And, and a gift. Really. This is why I love private practice.
Mm-hmm. You can build it exactly the way that you want it. That's the whole
Gordon Brewer: Exactly. To me, it makes the whole
Marie Fang: point, uh, of why, yeah. I love being in private practices. Okay. Yeah. I, I can't see 30 clients a week be a good mom, and I obviously think Right,
right. And
Marie Fang: there's no need to force it. I can just create the pathway that fits me well, and then I'm gonna be a nicer therapist too, and I'm gonna be more on top of all of the tasks that come with it and enjoy it more.
So Sure. That shift from like whatever the gold standard people think. I don't know where it comes from, but we write these stories in our minds to shift it towards like where, what's my capacity? What aligns with my needs and values and skills and all of that. And can we just, can we build the thing to fit that and Sure.
Set and embrace that. That is a valuable offering right into the world.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Hard to do that. Yeah, it is. It's always easier said than done. Yes. I mean, it said just that whole more is better kind of mentality of getting away from that. Yeah. So, well, to to shift gears a little bit Marie, what, in, in your working with other therapists that are in private practice or going into private practice, what do you, what do you find are kind of the the.
The topics or the issues that you see most people really struggle with the most.
Marie Fang: Oh, wow. There's a list. I'm sure there's a lot that comes to mind. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, I, I could summarize the list with that same framework of like, there's a should. I'm supposed to do things a certain way, whether it's mm-hmm.
I'm supposed to, it could be anything. And I'm supposed to, right. Sometimes I hear, I'm supposed to either. Accept insurance, or I'm supposed to be only cash pay, or I'm supposed to market myself on social media and put my face on a video, or I'm, you know, I'm supposed to build my website to look a certain way.
Mm-hmm. There's
Marie Fang: a list of like, I should do it a certain way, and then either feeling overwhelmed by it, so then it's really difficult to kind of. Really execute the plan. Or you end up building this thing that feels like it doesn't quite align with who you are. And then that kind of comes back to the burnout again.
Right,
Gordon Brewer: right, right. Giving
Marie Fang: your energy towards something that doesn't quite line up with something that feels authentic or that it aligns with your values. Then we're giving our energy to a space where it, it doesn't, it doesn't fill us up. It costs us a lot. Right? So, of categorically, I guess what I end up hearing a lot, I need.
That costing people a lot.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. There's there. Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that I, I hear in the people that I've worked with as well, is they get caught up on, okay, I need to do it a certain way or I have to do it the correct way. And, um, the thing thing is, is that there's, you know, dozens if not hundreds of.
Of, of ways to do different things. Oh, yes, yes. And none of them is wrong. Yeah.
Marie Fang: Yeah. It's
Gordon Brewer: a, that can be kind of overwhelming itself. Yeah,
Marie Fang: sure. It, it, it is arguably more work to get to know ourselves and then build something that fits us. I mean, if we were to imagine like the things that are working for me, I imagine probably are not the best fit for most people.
Like, why don't you just spend. 20 hours a week building a YouTube channel. Yeah. Uh, and having this whole like side business. Yeah. But most people, I don't expect that. Most people are gonna want to do, it's not gonna be a good fit, but it's working great for me and I love it. Right. So it's, it's. It's more work to sort of say, okay, let's get to know you and what, and you might have to try out some stuff and feel sort of like, okay, that wasn't it, to kind of mm-hmm.
Sort of feel like you're failing at a few different things to, to get to know, okay. What's a good fit for me? Like going to the store and trying on the clothes rather than, you know, buying the same outfit and the same size as everybody else kind of thing. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. It's more effort.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting how we can kinda get locked into certain mindsets of, you know, just doing things a certain way, but there's, yeah.
Yeah. Any number of ways that we can approach most of the things that we do in our, in our, in our practice. One, one example that comes to mind for me is, um, you know, I just think about bookkeeping. You know? Mm-hmm. As far as, you know, putting stuff into QuickBooks and all that sort of thing. And, um, somebody commented to me one time, says, Gordon, why don't you just hire that out?
Why don't you outsource that? And I said, well. Part of the reason is is I enjoy doing it. I mean, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's something I enjoy playing around with and looking at. Mm-hmm. And that kind of thing. And so I'm gonna continue to do it myself, even though somebody's telling me I should or ought to do it another way.
I think you do do things in the way that best fit you.
Marie Fang: Absolutely. Yeah. That, that's where it's tricky. There's no blanket advice or it's so good that you can outsource your books and so many people are gonna find that so helpful. Mm-hmm. And it's good that you know about yourself, that you like to do it yourself.
And I'm, I'm the same way. I still Right. For both businesses or keeping track of my own bookkeeping. Um, 'cause that really helps me know. Then I catch that like, oh, you know, I have this thing I've been. Paying for monthly. I haven't used it in a year or so, you know?
Gordon Brewer: Right, right.
Marie Fang: Or, oh, my numbers are dropping, so let me kinda see if I wanna make an adjustment, so, sure.
But
Gordon Brewer: sure. Everybody,
Marie Fang: everybody's different. That's, that's what's so beautiful. I think that we all have our own way. There's, that means that there's, you know, you're gonna be a better fit for some clients that I personally would probably. Really struggle to work with or they might not like working with me.
Right. And that's all part of it. We're all so different that that's why it works like that.
Gordon Brewer: Sure, sure. Well tell folks about your YouTube channel and the things that you're doing just with your consulting and that kind of thing, Marie.
Marie Fang: Yeah. Yeah. I I, it does sort of feel like I'm in this point now where I just kind of.
Make stuff that I feel like making, so I don't necessarily have mm-hmm. Like a come follow me for these specific tools at this point. I mean, you can find the archives of all my, my tools that I think can still be relevant. Uhhuh though maybe cringe-worthy on some of them or ones, I dunno. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm, I am on YouTube.
I post videos every week. The, it's called my. Handles called private practice skills. And lately at least, I'll just say lately I've been focusing more on like therapist wellbeing or just calling out aspects of our profession that at at least, aspects of how I was taught about our profession that I at least wanna be able to ask questions about or call into question.
So those are some of the like categories of, of topics that I might be touching on and I'm floating around in other spaces, like I release the episodes. Is the longer versions as a podcast. And sometimes if I feel like it, I post on Instagram. So Okay. That's kind of what I'm up to lately, but I don't have any, um, specific like consulting or one-on-one type things that I'm offering at the moment.
That's kind of well been a good fit for me.
Gordon Brewer: Well, that, that's good. That's good. And, and I, if you were to, I, I love the titles, private practice skills, what would you say, and I don't wanna put you on the spot, what would you say would be the. Maybe the top five skills any private practice owner might need to have.
Marie Fang: Yeah, I mean, this is like a category of skills, maybe the top five live in here, uh, of. Mm-hmm. But I'm thinking of branding when you mentioned that first. Mm-hmm. So branding, which really is, comes back to the same stuff we've just been talking about, like knowing who you are, who is it that you serve, why is that important to you?
That those are all. Important to know from a clinical perspective. Mm-hmm. Also, private practice. We're thinking from a business point of view, we need people to find you and then decide to book with you and then stay with you. Um, that those are really important skills to understand. Um, and unfortunately, often aren't taught in grad school, at least back, back in my day, they weren't taught in graduate school at all.
Right.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Marie Fang: So I think of that and also maybe, uh, an important skill is knowing, like, again, I'm repeating myself maybe a bit of like, what is it that I want? Like why, why private practice? Mm-hmm. What is it that I'm hoping for? Maybe it might not happen in two months, but if I can think ahead a year, three years, 10 years, like what?
What are my goals for wanting to pursue private practice? Because it does take effort to build, and there has to be some kind of goalpost to keep us motivated of like, well, I'm doing this hard work now because I wanna get to this place. And then you can reverse engineer it backwards, okay, if this is what I'm hoping for in a year, okay, what are the steps I need to do now to help me move towards that?
And your goal in a year might be totally different than, you know. Therapist, Joe Schmo next to you, who's building a totally different practice. Um, and that can kind of help you s stick with your individualized goals.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And also during the year, those goals can change. Oh yeah.
Marie Fang: Oh, they will.
Gordon Brewer: They will.
Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. And I think, um, people have heard me say, and it's, um, you, you just said the same thing. I think it's really important that you, a person get in touch with what is their why behind
mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Their private practice. I mean, what is it that they're, you know, what is it that brought 'em to it?
What is it that you're wanting to get from it? And, you know, I think a lot of it is. For most people, private practice offers a lifestyle for people that gives a lot of flexibility and also just, um, earning potential that they might not reach working for somebody else. Yeah.
Marie Fang: Yes.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Marie Fang: Well, yeah.
Yeah. Those are the reasons why I started private practice. Yes. And freedom to do, if I wanna do it part-time and do something else, like private practice skills or mm-hmm. In seasons, just spending more time being a mom. The, there's flexibility to do that too. It's,
Gordon Brewer: it's Sure. A
Marie Fang: lovely gift.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. Well, Marie, I've gotta be respectful of your time and yeah.
So are there any parting thoughts that you have just around the things that we've talked about, um, so far? Um.
Marie Fang: Goodness. I guess maybe just if anyone feels like, or they're wondering if, you know, is what I'm dealing with potentially burnout, like instead of just telling yourself you're gonna power through, like, could you please, I.
Ask someone to take a look at things with you, and I'm not gonna tell you who this someone needs to be, but someone you feel safe with, sort of say, okay. Mm-hmm. I'm not feeling great. Can we really just evaluate what's going on, what might be contributing to how I'm doing right now, and mm-hmm. Like gently and kindly take a look at what might be contributing before you just sort of decide like, I guess I just have to keep going.
Right, right. We know that doesn't work long term. Yes. So those are right. Those are my gentle words of, of, yeah, of encouragement. Hopefully it's encouraging. Sure,
Gordon Brewer: sure. Well, Marie, if people want to connect with you, tell 'em how they can do that. I.
Marie Fang: Yeah, I mean the best place to find me is always on YouTube.
Um, if you head over to YouTube and type in private practice skills, you'll find me over there. And I hope to see some of y'all there.
Gordon Brewer: Awesome. Awesome. Well, we'll have links in the show notes in the show summary for folks and Marie, I hope we can have another conversation again here in the near future.
Yes.
Marie Fang: Thank you so much for having me. This is a lovely time.