The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Hello, folks, and welcome again to the podcast and you're in for something fun today. I'm happy to have back on the podcast, Whitney Ellen's and her better half James to Whitney and James, welcome to the podcast.

Whitney Owens
Thanks for having us, Gordon.

James Owens
Thank you. And that is got to be the first time I've ever been called the better half.

Gordon Brewer
Okay, okay. All right. Yeah. So I have to have to wrangle Whitney a little bit because we're in a mastermind group together. And so we get to talk a lot and she knows more about me than most people would care to knows. I'm glad. I'm glad to have her on the podcast again. And dad, just a quick shout out for Whitney. If you don't know about videos, be sure and check out her podcast, the faith and practice podcast, which is what I listen to faithfully little play on words there. But haha. Anyway, enough comedy here. But what I'm so happy to have Jameson and Whitney on the podcast for today, we're going to be talking about the enneagram. And Whitney was the person that got me turned on to the inia gram. And I'm actually starting to use it some in my practice, especially working with couples, it's it's really, really a good a good tool. So anyway, as I start with everyone, and I'm gonna let James go first, James, kind of tell folks a little bit about you and your journey and how you kind of landed where you've landed. And then if you guys want to share how you got together even with me, that would be great.

James Owens
Yeah, all right. Well, there's a lot I could say there. But I will say a little bit about Whitney and I we met at a college ministry, a Wesley foundation for any Methodists out there. You might know that Wesley foundations of the United Methodist campus ministry, we met at the one at the University of Georgia, which is where we both went and we were married not too long after that, and have been pursuing ministry for me and counseling for Whitney ever since. I went to seminary at a school called Denver seminary and also did some work at Duke Divinity School. I am a newly commissioned provisional elder in the United Methodist Church. And I'm down here at a church in Savannah Wesley monumental where I've been serving for the past several years, and really, really loving it there. I discovered the enneagram. When I was finishing up my time at Denver seminary, it's been a hugely helpful tool to me. So yeah, like I said, really happy to get into that. But I'll let Whitney give her introduction.

Whitney Owens
Thank you. Yep. So I'm Whitney. And we've been married almost 15 years. So hey, we're doing good. We have two kids, he had mentioned that ages eight, which basically an eight year old girls like a preteen, it's crazy. And then we have a five year old as well, who actually is more cooperative than eight year old. I have a group practice here in Savannah, we have six clinicians, and I'm seriously knocking on wood, hoping that we hire two more next week, several interviews happening on now. And it's totally been in a drought. And now it's, you know, coming out of it a little bit. So I feel really grateful for that. And then I do consulting with practice the practice of the faith based niche to share a little bit about my story with the enneagram. And then James can share a little bit. When we were in Colorado while he was in seminary. He had heard some of that the enneagram I think I've heard people say the word enneagram, which just sounded weird. And I was like, No, the Myers Briggs, it's fine. You know, that's what I had learned in school. And so James sits me down on the sofa one night, and he's talking about the enneagram numbers. And he's, I don't know if you suggested it, or if I had actually taken the like, free test, but the one number came up. And the explanation was, the one has a critical voice in their head at all times, telling them what's wrong with everything. And I was like, Oh, I thought everyone had a critical voice in their head at all times. That's just me. And I was blown away, almost fell out of off the sofa, like, I can't believe this. Like it just explained my life so well. And now understanding my number has helped me really become a much better person and has really changed the course of my practice and my work and my relationships.

James Owens
Yeah. And so I had discovered the enneagram, just a little before that experience that Whitney relayed, yeah, I was in school at Denver seminary, and I worked in a library while I was a student there, and I would see all the books that students were checking out, you know, all the reserve books, especially for different classes. And it must have been one of the counseling classes that had Richard Ward's book on the inia Graham on the shelf and students were always taking that out. As that was the first I ever heard of it. But it really wasn't till a little bit later, as I was finishing up my degree there that I had an experience with a church. Anyone who's Listening who's been a church staff member, a pastor or probably even just a member of the church, you know that it's sometimes things don't always go well with the church, sometimes churches treat us treat us badly. And that's kind of what happened to me, I sort of had a group of folks that were supposed to be helping me CERN, my calling the ministry, and they kind of said, You know what, we just don't really think you're the right person to go into pastoral ministry, we don't think you'd have the personality for it. We don't think you have the people skills, and so on and so forth. And this, of course, was just devastating news. It was really a sad time. And Whitney was being mentored by someone at the time. And the mentor in talking to us said, Oh, is James a five on the enneagram? And we were like, well, we don't know, we don't really know what it is. So that was sort of the beginning of my exploration of the enneagram. And it's interesting, because that was the experience that sort of brought it about understanding the enneagram. And understanding my personality type, which is type five on the enneagram, we'll get into that has really helped me to be a better and more effective minister has helped me to see the reasons why the folks did what they did, but also to see the ways that I was really gifted for ministry, and God had given me an ability to be effective in it. So yeah, I

Gordon Brewer
love hearing that story. And it's not that this is the first time I've heard the story about how you guys kind of landed on the inia gram, but I will say this just real quickly, Whitney was the one that introduced me to the inia gram. And it was that when we were up in Michigan together, I guess it was the first time I met Whitney and James at a, an event that Joe Sanok held by his next level living room. And so that kind of stuck in my mind. And and I will say my, my first reaction was kinda like Whitney says that, Oh, well, I know that Myers Briggs our but once I started kind of delving into an MBA program just kept coming up, you know, it just more and more people were talking about it. And when I really start jumped in and started studying yet a little more, the book that Wendy recommends, he has the road back to you. But he cried. And he and as a side note, I found out is also an Episcopal priest. And for folks that that know about me, I've got that up Episcopal clergy person as well. And so they kind of got my attention. And when I let listen to that book, on debts, which is how I do most of my reading, it really struck a chord for me, and that it really nailed. I'm a two with a three wing, by the way. So Whitney knows that, you know, James knew that or not, but it just nailed who I was, and really gave me a lot of clarity. So as we talked about at the beginning, I know really, what we wanted to focus on in this particular episode is ways in which therapists could begin to thinking about using this as a tool in their practice. So we're really kind of jumping into more clinical stuff more than business building stuff. So Whitney, and James can kind of tell a little bit what you've figured out around all, all of that.

Whitney Owens
Yeah, well, today, we'd like to share a few different ways that we understand the enneagram. And obviously, you could spend many hours and days and years understanding the enneagram. And we are all learning all the time, but we're gonna just scratch the surface here on some ways. We use it and I can promise you it's funny how you said I'm a to three weighing in James was shaking his head like he knew that because that's pretty much all I talked about. Now I'm like, here's this person, a two, three, here's this person, nine, you know, because it helps me understand people. Not that not that we're putting them, you know, in a like a pigeonhole, but it's helping us to understand who they are. So one of the really unique things about the enneagram is it expresses the motives behind people for the reasons for their behavior, some of the other personality types more show behavior, or explain it, but like, now we understand the motive. So what I love as a therapist, when I'm working with my clients, if I know my enneagram, and I understand it, like we all know, we have to know ourselves to do good work, we don't want to transfer stuff on to people, I mean, you're going to do it anyway. But it's better to know about it and understand what's going on. So if I know my enneagram, it helps me understand the motives in therapy. So to kind of use an example here, being a one I will pick up myself here, I'm very controlling. And when I first became a clinician, I remember thinking, I've got to know exactly what to say at the beginning how the session is going to go, I have to have these treatment modalities ready, and like I planned the therapy, right. And so I know that about myself because of the inia Graham and so I have to find ways to not control the sessions and not control my clients and not put my motives on or my intentions on them but let them be the one That direct the session. But do you kind of see in there how my motives and understand enneagram impact therapy?

Gordon Brewer
Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's, uh, yeah, that's one of the things, you know, I remember, and he had Crohn's, but one of the things he gave an example of was, you know, if we can see another person through the lens at which they see the world, it gives us a whole lot more understanding, and empathy. And I think that's one of the things about the enneagram, at least in my work so far, with couples, when I've, when I've had them take the enneagram. We talked about that. And so that's pretty, pretty, pretty cool stuff. And that way, James, what what would you want to add about what you're learning about using it in practice?

James Owens
Yeah, absolutely. So the Whitney kind of went through number one there, which is understand your motives, understand, you know, who you are as a therapist, and why you do what you do. Another thing that kind of involves you as the therapist is to be able to identify your own strengths and weaknesses, as well as identify the ways you behave when you're doing very well. And the ways you behave when you're not doing so well, as we all do sometimes, and beanie gram can really help us do that. One of the cool things about this system is that it's not static. It's a dynamic system, you know, some of the other personality typing systems, it's kind of like, Okay, this is who you are. But enneagram teaching acknowledges that, you know, we all are different. When we're in stressful situations, we look different when we're insecure and happy situations. And so, we change, you know, our behaviors, and our outlook changes a little bit, I'll use just like, ready, I'll use myself as an example. Um, so I'm a type five. And if you look at the enneagram symbol, if your listeners have seen it before, they probably have you noticed that there's all these arrows, you know, pointing at all from all the different numbers. And so at number five, there's an arrow pointing towards seven. That's the direction of stress or disintegration, meaning that as a five and stress, I move towards seven and take on some of those characteristics, some of those lower functioning in characteristics. And so for me, what that looks like is kind of jumping from one thing to another, as sometimes sevens are prone to do not being able to focus, minimizing pain and negativity to the point of ignoring it sometimes using, you know, humor as a defense mechanism, which isn't always bad in the line of work I'm in. But this is some of that directions of disintegration or stress. And on the flip side, if you look at the enneagram symbol, you'll notice there's an arrow pointing from eight to five. And that means for a five, that that's the opposite, that's the direction of health or of integration or security. And so for me, you know, fives, like me are a little more quiet, a little more reserved, naturally. But eight is a very bold and gregarious type. So insecurity, or when I'm doing very well, kind of able to take charge and on a more leadership role and be a little more vocal in that way. So and each type has their own. And as you learn your type, and as you learn about yourself, you'll kind of identify the directions that you go in when you're doing well, and doing not so well. And you can kind of work that to your advantage to be aware of where you're going and maximize the strength of both because there's actually good things in both our direction of stress and of security.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah, that's been a big thing that I've learned here recently, just around the stress thing is, and I hadn't really noticed it until I started studying the enneagram is that when I'm under stress, I move towards an eight, which is the Challenger and just somebody that takes charge and gets gets in people's faces and all that kind of stuff. I thought that was just really fascinating. When I really learned that about myself. So I've kind of had to learn to turn that back. And, and not jump that direction so much.

James Owens
That's right. Yeah. You know, one of the interesting things about that is that we typically think okay, direction of stress direction and disintegration, that's bad. But and we do have to watch out for those things. But you know, the, the, the co author of the road back to you Suzanne's to do she says that, whenever you follow an arrow on the enneagram, you can find help. And so even our directions of stress can actually be helpful to us. So maybe moving in that direction. Yeah, you want to watch out for the being too controlling, being too demanding. But maybe there's some things about that type eight direction that you can latch on to for your for your benefit, you know, you can cry, charge, if you have to, you know, you can, you can, you know, be commanding, if you're in a situation that calls for it. So, yeah, wherever you go,

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, that's great. So what are some of the other ways to think about using the enneagram in, in the therapy context?

Whitney Owens
Okay, I'm gonna just say one more thing about what we were just talking about, you know, we kind of were just talking about using it for ourselves and understanding ourselves, but I use this with my clients too. So if I understand that you enneagram number, and they're sharing things going on in their life. And I know where the disintegration and health is, then I can listen to where they're coming from to know where they're at. That makes Yeah, so that really helps me and because they might act like they're doing okay, but then they share something that's moving into some of these other numbers that I know are not the healthy place for them. And I can help kind of bring them out of that, or, like James said, Bring those positive characteristics to the table. So I love being able to kind of understand that with the clients that are coming into the room. Right? Yeah.

James Owens
And that leads us perfectly into the third way that you can use the inia gram in, in practice, which is to evaluate our client's levels of emotional health. Another aspect of the sort of dynamic nature of the enneagram is Yeah, another aspect of this sort of dynamic nature of the enneagram is that not only does it show how we do in stress and security, it also shows how we may do as we become more healthy or become less healthy overall, as individuals, you know, we all go through times, when we're doing really well, we're, we're sort of working on ourselves, we're doing that self care, we're practicing those disciplines, we know we need to practice and we're moving up the ladder, there times, you know, folks might not be doing so well. And so each enneagram type also has its own levels of functioning. And as you become familiar with each type, you'll be able to see those in your clients, you'll be able to see the ones that are okay, you know, we're doing, you know, doing really well and that this person is really high functioning, open, balanced, or, or On the flip side, yeah, you know, they're really falling down into some of those lower levels of functioning and being able to see the way that each type looks different as they move through those different levels can be really helpful.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, that's a, that's been that's been again, as you mentioned, you know, the road back to you the book. That was, as a side note, kind of I read that during Lent as part of my lifting, discipline. And it was really with the purpose of really, okay, what's the healthy version of me? What do I need to be doing that really fits my kind of core core of who I am? So? Yeah, yeah. So So what are some other things to think about with worrying using the any

Whitney Owens
kind of shows us our our route? I don't an ego issue, I guess you would say, James, you probably have a better word than I have for that. Yeah.

James Owens
Did the innie gram tradition usually calls it the deadly sin of each type has their own deadly sin? Or if you don't like that religious language? That's fine. Ego fixation?

Whitney Owens
fixation? Again, used Yeah,

James Owens
root sin or deadly sin or ego fixed? Yeah.

Whitney Owens
So each number has their own. So for example, you I'll go through each one in just a second. But you actually want to find the practice of the spiritual discipline, that's the opposite of that. And they each have one so that when you go into that root sin, you're practicing the opposite of that to be able to come to a healthy place. So for example, the type one, the red sin is anger, which, of course, when I was told that I was like, absolutely not, I'm never angry, I'm perfect, right. And over time, I found that man, I'm angry at the world for being so screwed up. So the spiritual practice would be serenity, letting go because ones are trying to control everything and make things right and perfect. So if we were to move into the to the root sin is pride, which, for many of us, seems like the opposite. Because two is the helper but the helper is helping, because they're so important. They want everyone to notice them. And they become upset when people don't notice. Right, right. And so what they want to practice is humility. You know, and doing it out of humility, and not out of pride. So we could go through each of these. And

Gordon Brewer
it would be great, because I think there are probably some people that aren't familiar with Graham, when we talk about the nine types. And that's, you know, we'll say, Well, he's a, he's a three or she's a four, you know, all of that.

Whitney Owens
Yeah, yeah. So threes really struggle with being authentic. They tend to kind of be chameleons, they can walk into a room and be anybody to everybody. So authenticity is the practice that they need to take hold up. Um, you want to do the rest some of them, honey.

Gordon Brewer
Sure. I'll take them again for you. Yeah. And the three is the achiever, correct? That's right. Yeah,

James Owens
yeah. And so type four is sometimes called the romantic or the individual is someone that prides themselves on being unique, but is often given to extremes in emotions, feeling their own emotions, extremely high, extremely low. And so the virtue that type fours cultivate is called equanimity. As a big word that basically means balance, learning to be not too high, not too low down, but kind of getting into that, that balance, kind of finding a happy medium for type, a type five, which as I mentioned earlier, is what I am It's called the investigator or the observer. One of the things that fives tend to do is we like to hold on to things we like to hold on to knowledge. You know, I, for one, love to learn and love to acquire knowledge, sometimes I keep that to myself too much, and you're going to share it with other people a little more, be more vocal in that fives also hold on to their energy, we tend to be introverted. And so we want to, we want to hold on to our energy. And so the virtue for fives to cultivate is called non attached. Just mean kind of, you know, not being attached to those things being willing to give freely, to give one's energy to give one's attention, one's knowledge, one's affection, whatever, and be okay with that, and just be confident that we're going to be able to renew that and get it back. Type six is the next type type six is sometimes called the loyalist or the skeptic, this tends to be a type that struggles with anxiety tends to be a type that struggles to trust themselves. And so their virtue to cultivated courage. Yeah, that ability to be confident in oneself and one's own ability to make decisions rather than having to rely on others.

Whitney Owens
And then we've got seven, who tends to, you know, be extravagant, lavish, we call them the enthusiast. So they need to practice sobriety, right and not not always giving into their desires being peaceful and simple in the way that they do things. Eight is known as the challenger. And so being able to practice innocence, do you I'm not exactly sure how they practice that you want to explain that James. So

James Owens
yeah, so the type eights it this message that the world is a scary and dangerous place. And I've got to be the one to protect myself and others, you know, be strong, or you're going to be controlled by someone else. And so, you know, eights put up that really strong front. And so when they recover that original innocence that they want to add, they're kind of able to let down that guard and be sort of childlike again.

Whitney Owens
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And then the nine is the peacekeeper, we call them, like Ian cron says the sweetheart of the inia gram, which I totally think is the case. But nuns tend to be complacent. And so they need to be in action to actually be their discipline, they have a very hard time getting up and getting things done. So making decisions acting out of what they think is best and not just doing what everybody else wants them to do. And doing that

Gordon Brewer
action. I love that that's a, you know, as you can see, as they as they talk about this is that it's a very, very good way to kind of frame things when things go in that there is a lot of self understanding. I know there is a there are a few more things you guys want to share about ways in which you can use this in in a practice.

Whitney Owens
Yeah, the last one we have here which like I said, we have so many we could say but these are the ones that we have found super important. And you already touched on this was helping clients improve their relationships. So even in you mentioned marital counseling, which are very helpful in marital counseling, and I can even say in my own marriage, once I understood my husband's enneagram, I had a new appreciation and patience and love for him that was different, because I understood him. And even for individuals in my therapy with them. understanding their own number helps them understand what they kind of place on people how they interact with people. So like if somebody is a six, helping them understand the loyal aspects of themselves, helping them understand their risk aversions that they might have in their relationships, being able to act out of that a little bit more. But then also, if they know the numbers of their partners, or if they know the numbers of their boss or people that they work with, they can help care for those people better help have better relationships. And I also do this at work like I have a group practice I have employees that I work with everyone takes the inia gram when they are going through the interview process. And we kind of discussed not because they have to have a certain number to work for me it has to do with them understanding themselves and that they're willing for feedback, but it helps me know how to care for them. So someone who's a to Gordon really appreciates words of affirmation really appreciates when someone goes out of their way to show them that they appreciate the work they do because they often feel neglected and overlooked. So my two therapists which are very common number for therapists, of course, like I tried to do notecards or give them flowers or a gift on their birthday, or just an email that says you did a really good job yesterday with that client. Thank you so much. And it too can really gain a lot from a very small gesture. So understanding their numbers will help you understand how to best care for them and the way they perceive something. Oh, another great example is eight. They're the challenger but they find intimacy through conflict. This was really hard for me to understand because most of us feel Conflict means that we're not doing well with somebody or they don't like us. But I was finding that my friends and my employees that are eight would bring up these awful discussions. And if I could just sit through it and talk with them through it, it made us so much closer. And then they found you to be someone they respect. And they're doing it because they want to be close to you. And I've even talked to some eights about this. And they all say, Oh, yeah, I was doing it because I want to be close. And they found that they lose friendships over this, because they're because people can't handle it. And they don't mean it that way. It's just coming to different ways. So understanding their number really helps you understand the relationship dynamic.

Gordon Brewer
Right? Right. Yeah. And I'm thinking about a couple I worked with, it's been within this past year, where one of the members of the couple was an aide, and I think the other one was, was a five or a six. But so, you know, it felt like they were, you know, at this, you know, constantly being criticized, and one would just kind of hide away and the other one, just come on stronger. And we talked about that dynamic of, you know, really what they need is for you to push back some and, and that that was that was a helpful, helpful tool with the anagram for me, so. So I know, we could spend hours talking about this. And as a matter of fact, speaking of hours of talking about this, you guys are getting ready to launch a course.

Whitney Owens
Yes. So talking about hours of discussing the inia Graham, it's going to be 10 hours. In fact, wow. Which also means 10 CPUs. So I know that it's hard for us to get CPUs. And just to be honest, sometimes I sit through CES, and I'm like twiddling my thumbs, this one you won't be you're going to learn about the inia gram, which we could all we all just love, right. So this is going to be hosted through psych Maven, which is company owned by David Hall, or Dr. David Hall, and he's fantastic. So you can go the psych Maven website as well to see all those courses. But it's gonna be a 10 hour enneagram course we're going to take some of the stuff we just talked about today, but go into a lot of depth talk about each of the numbers, how we use that. We're gonna be doing that live on August 16 and 17th. That's a Monday and Tuesday. And then that course will be up for purchase after that. The cost of the live event I think is 250. is what we're pricing it out. So to get 10 hours see us pretty good deal.

Gordon Brewer
great deal.

Whitney Owens
Yeah, so I'm excited.

Gordon Brewer
So what parting thoughts do you guys have just about all of this?

James Owens
You know, I think just to your listeners who maybe hearing this and thinking oh yeah, I've been hearing about the CDA Graham thing for a while, I'm not really sure about it. I just would say it's, you know, it's really worth the work. And it's really worth the time that you can put into it. I encourage you to you know, pick up a book on it, check out some stuff online, take a test, take an assessment, it is really worth the time the effort you'll put into it, because you will understand yourself so much better understand others and just like Whitney was saying earlier, whether it's whether it's a marriage, a team you're working with in a work setting or somewhere else. The enneagram makes us more compassionate for ourselves and for others.

Gordon Brewer
What take care folks and thanks again to Whitney and James for being on the podcast.