Jenn Fredette
Hey, I'm Jen for that. And I am so excited to be here with Gordon and the practice of therapy.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so excited for you to get to meet Jen Fredette and Jan, welcome to the podcast.

Jenn Fredette
Thanks, Gordon. It's

great to be here.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah. And are we kind of, she kind of found me I found her through our mutual friend, Jane Carter. So I have to give a shout out to Jane because she's, again, one of my favorite people. And so, but Jan, I'm glad we were talking ahead of time. And I think folks are gonna really love to hear Jim's story and the things that she's passionate about, particularly around copyrighting, which sounds kind of weird for therapists. But I think once you hear from her, you'll see why. So, Jan, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about your private practice journey and where you how you've landed where you've landed?

Jenn Fredette
So one of the things we were talking a little bit about before you hit record, Gordon was how I have an M div and started off actually thinking that I was going to be a preacher, although I like to drop the F bomb more. And that's the only thing that is approved, especially like good old Southern congregations.

Gordon Brewer
Well, all the good ones do so I mean,

Jenn Fredette
I like my fanfiction about Jesus as He likes to curse. That's totally true. Yeah.

But so as I was working as a minister getting my M div, one of the things that I became really intrigued about and really concentrated a lot of my studies on was interpreting texts in new ways. And being able to read not necessarily new meanings, but non traditional readings into the Bible into other Christian texts that we often end up with a lot of sacred mess, which I love doing, I thought it was going to go on and get a PhD in biblical literature, was not excited about having to learn German to do that, right. And I had a year in between before I was going to apply to PhD programs. And in that year, I worked, or I rather I served with AmeriCorps, and then adult literacy agency, which I loved it was really, really meaningful. And one of the things I discovered was how this is so much more fun than having to translate things from the Greek or from the Hebrew, I'm really enjoying getting to help people translate their own lives and tell their stories in new ways. So I made a pivot and decided I wanted to get a master's in counseling. My partner got a job up in DC. So we moved up, we were in Winston, Salem, Greensboro, North Carolina, we moved up to DC, just a little bit of a culture shock. And I just fell in love with counseling, I fell in love with therapy. And so initially, I thought, Gosh, I want to continue to work with people who are underserved. I worked at a community mental health, which was very fun. But over time, I started to want to do deeper and deeper work. And there wasn't as much room for that with all of the case management and a lot of crisis management, right. And so I took the risk, I wanted to go out on my own. It started with a group practice, which was really lovely. Eventually, though, I wanted to continue to expand and really, to not have as many restrictions on my marketing voice really right, and not having to say or do things that maybe my group wouldn't align with. or certainly, when I was at an agency, you don't have to advertise that there's, there's not enough people to serve. So that's part of how I got here. As a psychotherapist, I practice in COVID, I practice out of my house, DC Baltimore metro area, and I work with people who are really deep thinkers and often get trapped in how they think about life. And don't always tap into the deep feelings that they have. So a lot of the work I do is helping them uncover their heartbreak and add

Gordon Brewer
to it right I love that I just yeah, and one of the things that I was telling Jan before we we started recordings that took a lot a look at her website and we're gonna have links here in the show, summary and everything and I would advise everybody to go and look at it because her her talent with copywriting is very evident. Just from the get go and I loved her website is going to be on my list of, of websites to point to when it comes to Okay, here's a good therapy website. So you So great job. Oh, man. Yeah. So yeah, so what? What's your passion around copywriting and I love your story, by the way, because I think it's so typical for most of us in private practice, we kind of go through the jump through the hoops with it in terms of getting licensed and doing all the stuff with our training, and probably the vast majority of us end up in the agency work and find out that it's very rewarding, but also very difficult. Yeah, so but talk some more about copywriting and how that you feel like that is so important to people, and being able to learn how to do it well, with your website.

Jenn Fredette
So one of the things that I have noticed, and I have two graduate degrees, I really like classes and learning and they've done sort of the gamut. It feels like a private practice building courses.

Unknown Speaker
Mm hmm.

Jenn Fredette
And one of the things that over time I really started to realize is, how important it is to find not just your niche in terms of who you want to serve, but your niche in terms of what marketing does and doesn't work for you. And there's 20 billion options when it comes to marketing your practice. But one of the ones that I think, in a lot of ways, shows up in all of them is how do we speak about who we are and who we want to serve who we want to work with, which an online speak is copy copy is just written content that we've created. And it doesn't necessarily even have to be written, it can be having a conversation on a podcast, or it can be having a networking conversation. How do you articulate who, who you're meant to serve, who you are called to work with. And so over time, I also really like to write and so trying to crack the code of like, how do you actually write copy that is not just captivating isn't just converting clients, but also as representative of who you are, as a clinician became more and more important to me. And I think, not to shade in a marketing advice. But sometimes, marketing can feel kind of shallow and feels a little slimy. I think, for people, we're not wanting to manipulate people. And a lot of marketing techniques sometimes don't integrate our clinical depth or clinical awareness, which is a real shame, because therapists have all of this information about their ideal clients, that a lot of marketing people have to do lots of research for, where we have somebody sitting and telling us their deepest, darkest secrets, and paying us to hold them and help them work through it. So one of the things I feel passionate about is how can I help people translate their voice and the knowledge they already have into copy on their website, which isn't just going to help them build a practice, but also I think helps clients start to realize like, Oh, I didn't know that was a problem. Oh, my gosh, I didn't realize that that was a thing that I could get help with. Right? Like, a lot of times when people are coming to therapy, it's because they're in pretty dire crisis. Right? It's not catching it beforehand,

Gordon Brewer
right? Yeah. Yeah. What What I love about that is that, but as you're, as you were saying that what what came to mind for me is just, I think a lot of times we we are so in inundated with marketing of other different things. And kind of the, the theme of most marketing is they're trying to convince us why we should do something, you know, that sort of thing. And, and I think what you're exactly right when it comes to, to, to therapy websites and to what we do, it's really more about, you know, which I think we're all comfortable with is just kind of a kinder, gentler way of reaching out to people of just being able to say, I'm here to help you if you would like to help. And that's, that's it, you know, and just really saying, you know, this, this is how I understand your problem. And this is how I can help you should you choose to get the help and that that's a much better, you know, a softer sale music quote mark, so, yeah, you know, what, when it comes to to marketing, is people have heard me say and a lot of people say is the job of marketing, in a private practice is really just helping the people that need you most be able to find you.

Jenn Fredette
Yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure the kinds of clients that you most love to work with Gordon. I like sometimes they feel kind of tough. I really like this avoidant, very intellectual realized, I have people who, like, yeah, okay, what are we gonna talk about? Oh, life's really good. Yeah, takes peeling back the defenses. And Fritz perls has been, I think I was the only one in my theories class. It was like,

I like Fritz perls.

Not the nicest guy. All right, I think that's something I often actually see in therapist copy is that we are warm, we are nurturing. And we do want to make sure we're clear that we offer that really safe container for clients. But clients have a lot of defenses already. Especially if we're talking about private practice, private pay, people sometimes need a little bit of an edge of like, Yeah, but that actually is a problem. Like, I know, it sort of works for you. But here's what you're actually missing. Yeah. And so like, for a lot of my people, things look very good on the outside, like everybody who knows them. It's like, well, you have your life together, like you are killing it. But underneath, they don't actually feel known or seen,

Gordon Brewer
right. That's part

Jenn Fredette
of what makes copy compelling. And captivating, is when we can actually highlight, hey, I see the thing that you're hiding. I know that things aren't as great as you wish that they would be. And actually, sometimes you even hide that from yourself, because you're too scared to go there.

Gordon Brewer
Right? Right. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So as people think about writing copy for their website, what would be some things that you would kind of tips you would give on that of just how to go about it and think about that and process that? Because I think a lot of times, I think some people probably are more. I know, I enjoy writing when I make the time to do it. But I think for some people, they just dread it. And they they probably harken back to thinking oh, I've got a term paper writer, something like that. So yeah. But anyway, give me give us your thoughts on all of that.

Jenn Fredette
I have so many thoughts. So one of the things that I often see people doing, and have a lot of tender to I'm like the person again, pre COVID that we're going out to eat and like, I want to make sure everybody's invited. I don't want anybody to be left out. Like, sure everybody has a seat at the table. Like I don't want

Gordon Brewer
and are you in enneagram? Two.

Jenn Fredette
I I switch every time I enneagram last time I took it I think I was a two or while I was a solid four. Okay. But yeah, who knows? Maybe?

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, well, that's it That sounded like me as well. I mean, just cuz I'm, I'm a to hitting a ground. And so yeah, it's always just, you know, the service, you know, making sure everybody's comfortable and happy. And so anyway, didn't mean I digress. So

Jenn Fredette
we can talk about enneagram get super obsessed when I did my clinical pastoral education. But so often, and I think you and I are not alone in that, Gordon, that I think a lot of therapist, and I think it's part of their resistance to what people marketing's always like you got a niche down, you got to niche down, that we don't want to exclude anybody. And that's a really hard way to write copy. I was a youth minister for a hot minute. And the things I hated most about being a youth minister, we're locked in. Because I was always very concerned with all my kids were doing when I was asleep that the lock in and Sundays after church having to figure out where are we going to go eat, trying to manage 20 something people are going to do Mexican or Italian or like what are we going to do that it becomes really hard to come to a consensus and say what you want to say or say what you need to say, when you're trying to accommodate a lot of different people, right, which then often leads to a lot of blocks when you're trying to write either your therapy directory profile or website, because you're trying to write to Jim, as well as Karen and Bob. And you don't want to leave Jane out either. And it's hard to then actually distill down What do I actually want to say, What do I actually have to say, Hmm, and the other piece is, I think sometimes we lose ourselves, we lose our own desire of what do you want your practice to be? If you're so focused on accommodating others, you're maybe not getting your own needs met. Right? And so the first step, and I think it's actually the hardest is to really get in touch with your own desire. Who do I actually really want to sit with who would light me up if I could just have this person in my office and I get to go deep with them wherever they need to go. Who do I Lot. And when we know who we want, it starts to become easier to actually write copy to that person.

Gordon Brewer
Right? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I mean, I think it's, um, you know, I think I hear you know that it's a question that comes up a lot. And it's something that so it's almost become cliche cliche, in the private practice circles is just the word niche, or niche, or however you want to say it. And, and I think one of the things that we that has always helped them for me, is, if I think about the clients that I've had, which are the ones that I look forward to were, versus the ones I see on my schedule that I just dread seeing, you know, kind of thing. And so thinking about, you know, how is it that I talk with that, that particular person? How is it that, you know, what of our conversations about, and one of the things that they get me excited and get my passions up? And and if we're doing those things, then it just becomes so much easier to do those things.

Jenn Fredette
Yeah, yeah. And so that's, I think the first problem is people try to write to everybody, or they end up writing to people that they don't actually want to see. But they think, well, these are the people I'm supposed to serve, because I'm trained in this, or I have experience doing that. The next thing I often see is that, I mean, these are all defenses about how we show up. And marketing at its core is a relationship, the relationship between me the business, the therapist, and actually in some ways to the product, and the future client. And so when I have a clear awareness of who that person is, I sometimes especially if it's like a person I really want to work with, I start to be like, Oh, I gotta like, really make sure they know I'm worth it. And like, gosh, I am expensive, and like, what am I gonna do? I remember, my husband's a trained attorney, he works in emergency management now. But when he was first getting his law degree, we would hang out not just with lawyers, but like, fancy DC lawyers who had a

yard in DC, like Milan, which, if you're from this area, like

that is like, Whoa, you are like, killing it. We went to a party, and they're all of these very, like prestigious people, and had just finished my degree. And I went around telling everyone, I'm a psychotherapist, which freaks people out anyways. Yeah.

Like, I'm a psychotherapist, I'm a psychotherapist can read my mind.

Actually, I was like, do I have to talk about my mother with you? I think we can if you want. And my husband's just like, Jen, what are you doing? Like, I was so insecure and like wanting to like, show up and be like, I'm important. And often in our copy that shows up by Let me tell you all the certifications I have. And let me tell you all the training I have, and let me tell you why I'm so important, and how I'm going to solve all of your problems. And clients don't care. Like clients. One of my clients, we were talking about, I was suggesting EMDR would be a really good adjunctive thing. And he's very sweet. He's like, is it it's the music thing, you think I should go to more music concert. EMDR means that clients don't know what these acronyms mean. What they want to know is that you're going to see their pain and help them heal from it. Yes. And so it then becomes Can you be honest and real about who you are? Beyond the credentials, of course, you still need your credentials, and training is wonderful. And if you can't translate what that means for clients, they're just going to skim over you.

Gordon Brewer
Oh, yeah. I love that. And, and, you know, bullet point bullet pointed what you just said, because I think it's a great quote, clients, clients, paraphrasing, but clients don't care about your degrees or your certifications or anything, but they do want to know that you can see their pain. And you can help them with that. Yeah.

Jenn Fredette
Yeah. And so but that actually brings us to the third piece is then people struggle with Can I really say that? Can I can I really, when I've worked with people on their copy, it's like, Jen that feels really punchy. Oh, that feels really aggressive. I can I really say that. And all they're saying is, I know that you just smoked three bowls of marijuana back to back, which is a true story like you've just done that you're doing that to numb out from the pain of All of these other things, that therapists often pull their punches. And in doing, so they end up colluding with clients defenses. And it doesn't allow clients to then get the help that they need, because they either get so mired in shame and think, if somebody really knew this about me, they would tell me that I have to go to rehab for the next six months, and like, I'm gonna have to do a or na for the rest of my life. Or then I'm really the screwed up one, like, my family's not crazy, I'm the crazy one. And until we can name like, Hey, I know that you're doing this or thinking that clients won't feel seen. And so we still tend to pull our punches, because we don't want to wound the other. But in doing so, we're sort of just putting band aids on people's bullet holes.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah. It's like, you're saying that I'm kind of reminded of Rene brown to some degree just about the importance of, of being vulnerable. And that's when people begin to heal is when they can truly be vulnerable, and it be safe for them to be vulnerable. And I think that's kind of, I think what you're saying is, is just how do we how do we convey that in our copy? That, you know, okay, this is a safe place. And we know that you've got your your shit behind, behind the scenes. And, and yet, guess what we all do? And so it's okay, for you to talk about that. It's not going to open up the floodgates when you do that, we're going to create a safe place for you to do that. So yeah, yeah. So.

Jenn Fredette
So I'm realizing like, I've just named a bunch of problems, I'm actually modeling for you. How I write copy that we start with naming the problem.

Unknown Speaker
Yes. And then

Jenn Fredette
where we go. And this is a very basic copywriting formula. So anybody can go and use it. And actually, all the biggies use it Apple uses it, like Dropbox uses it. I shared with Gordon just before I came on that I'm pregnant with my first child, which is so exciting

Unknown Speaker
it is.

Jenn Fredette
And but now I'm getting targeted on like Facebook, and Instagram with like all of these baby things that you mean by. And the really good ads that catch my eye use the same formula. And it's problem. And then we begin to agitate it, we start to actually talk about like, why is that actually a problem. And part of the way I was just agitating The problem is you're colluding with clients defenses. No therapist I know wants to click clients defenses like that is not only want to do, then you describe it, like what have you been trying that hasn't worked, you might be writing really bland copy in an effort to include everybody, you might be posturing a lot with all of your credentials. Or you might just be like really stuck, like, Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have to show up vulnerable. So my client feels a little more comfortable being vulnerable. I don't know if I want to do that. That all of those things are hard to do, especially therapists really like to do things alone. Just always sort of mystifying to me. Like, this is a hard thing to do alone to write copy that really reflects who you are and who you want your ideal person to be. That doing it alone doesn't work. And so the solution is having formulas, having frameworks but also having people who can partner with you, as you write your copy, whether it's a mastermind, a business group who can give you feedback, whether it's a coach or consultant, or some sort, of course that can walk you through it,

Gordon Brewer
right. But just

Jenn Fredette
like our clients deserve and need to make an investment in their mental health and having a partner who can safely contain that for them. So I think therapists need coaches and consultants. So they don't have to go like figure out how to get an MBA just to

Gordon Brewer
practice. Right, right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Again, this couldn't agree more, because I know that for me and my own journey, when I have actually reached out to others, to really kind of get feedback and to really, you know, okay, I need I need another perspective here. You know, I need somebody on the outside looking in, and tell me what because to me, it might sound perfect, you know, just kind of, Oh, this makes sense to me, but to other people, and why not? Yeah. Right. Right. So, yeah, so are there any other copywriting steps that you would want to share?

Jenn Fredette
Yeah, so one of the things that I often suggest to people and I am pretty type A overachieving. My supervisor actually said to me the other days, when you are a workhorse, it's like, I know Bradley, I need to work on it. And so Often I hear that with other therapists that I work with, or just colleagues, that the first big shiny thing people often want to do is completely rewrite their website, which I think is actually a terrible idea.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, a lot of

Jenn Fredette
work. And there's a lot of work to do really well, and not just writing the copy. But having somebody to design it in a way that feels true to you. But it's also going to speak to your ideal client. And so what I often suggest to people, when you're just getting started writing copy, starting with your therapy, directory profile, is a really good place for you to get to experiment with what you're going to do is also going to show you like what copy is actually converting with clients. Because, and it's not a huge investment in terms of time or money. And when you know what's working in you're actually getting clients that you're like, Oh, I would love like 10 more of you. I don't have room for 10 more of you, but like, this is your my jam like this is good. Yeah.

Gordon Brewer
Right.

Jenn Fredette
That's when you start writing copy for your website. And you can do a longer form service page, you can do essentially, what is a sales page and online marketing, which really walks people through not only the story of what they're going through, but how you can help them. And you mentioned my website, my think I call it Services website, like that's a really good example that I'm using a sales page format, essentially. And I don't mean this in a manipulative way. But to pre sell people before they ever get on the phone with me. It's pretty rare. And I'm full now. But it's pretty rare for me to get on the phone with somebody who isn't already primed, that they really want to work with me specifically, even when they're not always the best fit. And so that's sometimes the maneuvering, like you really hear you. And I really like to trust me that this person is going to be a better fit for you. Right? That doesn't happen super often. Yeah. It's almost always ideal clients. It's, I frequently hear people say, Oh, my gosh, you're in my head, like, I don't know how you knew all of those things, but you just knew me. And so it's a way to build rapport before they're ever now on my digital sofa. And I don't end up having to do a lot of back and forth about money stuff, which I don't love having to do. That people who end up coming to me, it's clear how much I charge is clear what my boundaries and restrictions are. And people are ready to dive in.

Gordon Brewer
Right?

Jenn Fredette
Several people who have started with me after this new website went live, not only are ready to dive in, but have wanted to do twice a week like want to do deeper and deeper work. Wow. Wow. Fabulous.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is great. So well, Jan, I got to be respectful of your time. And I'm so so glad to have you join me for the podcasts. So if people want to find out more about you, and maybe even work with you around some of these things, because I know you're you're doing some of that, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you.

Jenn Fredette
So I'm working on yet another website. So probably before this podcast goes live, it's going to be a thinkers guide, calm. And certainly if they want some inspiration, they can check out my private practice website therapy for thinkers calm. And for all of your listeners. I love a good freebie. And part of what we talked about was, how do you start to know what's in you, that's preventing the ability for you to write copy that is going to represent who you really are and who you really want to work with. So they can go to a thinkers guide.com slash diagnosis. And I have a little bit of a play on the DSM of five symptoms that they can diagnose me writing and some basic interventions that they can get started on without having to invest any money. Just Wow.

Gordon Brewer
That's very generous. Thanks, Jan. And we'll have links to all of that in the show notes in the show summary and people can access and and, and so yeah, so I would invite folks to to go check out her podcast. I know I'm, I'm looking forward to listening to some episodes, a thinkers guide to is that correct?

Jenn Fredette
And our season was the apocalypse I recorded in 2020. Oh,

Gordon Brewer
wow. All right. That's great. So we'll have links to that as well. Well, well, Jan, I'm sure. I will be having you again. On the podcast and good luck with the little one on the way. Yes, yes. That's exciting. So yeah, so be sure to check her out. And and thanks again, Jim, for joining me.

Jenn Fredette
Thanks for having me.