The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer
Hi, my name oh, you're fine. Go ahead.

Kendall Bird
Hi, my name is Kendall Burton. I'm one of the cofounders of frame therapy.

Sage Grazer
And I'm stage grazer, the other co founder, and today we'll be talking about our company frame therapy, which offers a free online community for therapists to connect with one another, as well as help build their practice. We're really excited to be here with you today, Gordon.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm really glad and excited for you to meet sage, Grazer and Kendall bird who are the cofounders of the frame network, and where you're going to learn about that when I started kind of researching and learning about it, I think this is just going to be one of those platforms that people are going to be really excited about. So sage and Kindle, welcome.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you.

Gordon Brewer
So as I start with everyone, why don't you each kind of tell a little bit of your backstory and you tell about your journey and how you've landed where you've landed?

Sage Grazer
Kendall Do you want to start with how you got to your place you go for

Kendall Bird
where we cross paths. Okay, first, and then I'll explain how we crossed paths.

Sage Grazer
Well, for myself, you know, I'm a therapist, myself, I'm an LCSW W in California. And, you know, I went into therapy, because I had had really positive experiences with therapy when I was growing up. And it made me want to become a therapist and be that person for other teenagers who were struggling. And, you know, I went about it, got my degree, started, my practice was really excited, got licensed, and then realize that when I signed up to be a therapist, I was also signing up to be a business owner, and also had to figure out how to market my practice and do my finances and figure out Los Angeles city taxes and all these things that I wasn't prepared for and wasn't trained for. And I found that really overwhelming. And I had a really nice supportive, you know, group of peers at the time, but really didn't have a lot of guidance about how to market my practice, or do those parts of it that I wasn't trained for at all. And when I reconnected with Kendall, you know, she was looking for a therapist herself. And I was telling her what it's like to be a therapist, and how hard it is to get your business going when you're not trained as a marketer. And that's kind of where our past started to recross, because we actually are childhood friends, which I failed to mention in the beginning of that part of the story.

Kendall Bird
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so we grew up next door to each other for everyone listening. And I also started going, this is Kendall I started going to therapy when I was 12, or 13. I just my parents, I just got they found out that I was dyslexic, and I was having confidence issues. And I also had a really positive experience with my therapist. But I took a different career path. After college, I was terrified of standardized testing, and did not want to go to a master's program. So I actually went into the tech field. So I worked at companies like Google, YouTube and Snapchat, really focused on marketing, product marketing and on the business side, and our stories reconnected, a sage said I'd moved back to LA, I was living in New York, and was looking for new therapists that sort of understood the craziness of the tech world. That experience was very frustrating to find that therapist and that led me to reconnect with sage and I, from my perspective, what kind of blew my mind was like, my whole life, I've thought about therapists in the context of helping me with my problems, and I never thought about them as human beings outside of therapy, and people who have businesses and who don't actually, like have a lot of business training that's offered in their master's program, and I just couldn't, I didn't think it was fair, you know, like, I just felt like these people have dedicated their lives to helping others it's a really emotion can be a very emotionally draining job. It's really time consuming and that it's not fair that they're not getting the resources that other kinds of doctors are and I think that was ultimately the reason that we decided to start our company was to provide resources to

Gordon Brewer
therapists Oh, that's good. That's great. And that's what I love to hear is just how people have landed where they've landed and that's that's so cool that you guys were started out as little little girls can I say that a little girls being being little just friends and how it's kind of gotten you to this place in you're exactly right candle I think that that's one of the reason Reasons that I started this podcast and the practice of therapies was just knowing that we get a lot of great clinical training as clinicians, but we never really learned the business side of things. And that's just an important piece, especially if you're going into private practice. I think people going into maybe into agency work don't need it quite as much. But I think it's still information they need to have is to understand the workings. So yeah, so tell us about your new venture. I don't know. Well, it might not be that new. How long have you guys been working on this? Together?

Kendall Bird
It's been like, maybe two years? i It's crazy. Because time just has no, it's been

Sage Grazer
almost four years? No, it has because we started in 2018. Well, we've, uh, we launched our you and I started together. And yeah,

Kendall Bird
we launched our company during COVID. Because you remember, the company's

Sage Grazer
been live for about two years. But I mean, behind the scenes, we've been working at it, which I just think I only hold interrupt you to say that because it's wild.

Kendall Bird
And crazy. I'm glad you said that we did from the first time we talked about this business. And I think I have a very distinct memory of us being in an office together and saved me like, I think this like, virus things getting pretty bad. And I was like, it's fine. And then it was completely impacted all of so our lives, but also mental health and the way therapist practice, but I, but um, so we launched during COVID. And what this is, is the, it's a free online community for therapists. And I think what we did was we identified a need that therapists, you know, it's very isolating, we also like, came up with this idea, sort of free COVID. So it was kind of wild that it just became more exacerbated during the pandemic. But that people therapist needed a place to connect which sage can get into a little bit more, but we wanted to have our own spin on the community as well. And so we offer a lot of different, like free services and opportunities in the community that we'd love to get into, I don't know, if you want to sort of give your perspective the community from a therapist, to

Sage Grazer
well, when Kendall and I reconnected, you know, and we were talking about was telling her about what it's like to be a therapist, you know, sharing that there are a lot of online groups that can get really overwhelming because the groups are so massive, and some of the people in there aren't as supportive, as you know, you like them to be amongst each other, they kind of, there's just a sense of people being more judgmental, and it creates an environment where you don't really want to ask questions, or be vulnerable to say, this is something I'm trying to figure out my practice or show that you don't know everything, because you don't want to get somebody on their soapbox, you know, telling you how you're failing, failing miserably. So we wanted to create a community that would be a little more intimate and be a place where people could have, you know, respectful, healthy communication, and still be able to disagree, because I think that's so important, and have diversity of opinion. But do it in a way that again, is more supportive and respectful and educating each other as opposed to reading or belittling people. And having a successful practice is also, you know, in private practice, it can be so isolating. And so it's really necessary to have a good community and a network of people that you can reach out to for support, whether it's clinical support, or business advice, or referrals, or, you know, what, kind of, like crisis, you know, hotline, do you tend to refer your clients to or just things that, you know, might be not certain when you're leaving your graduate program, and then you, you know, move to a new city, and you want to know what the resources are there.

Gordon Brewer
Yes. And that is so needed. You're, you're exactly right, because this, this whole space can be very isolating. And as we all learn through COVID I think now that hopefully, we're hopefully we're on the tail end of it as we're recording this and that it's, although it's going to be around for a while, I think but that you're right, that the not not too bad mouth, any Facebook communities, because I've got one myself, they can get overwhelming, and particularly some of the larger ones that just so many people and and the other problem too, which I think you guys are addressing is is that sometimes you have a specific problem. And it just gets lost in the thread and you're asking questions and you it's just a stroke of luck if you get answered or that sort of thing. And so you're not really you have to kind of rely on what Facebook what people We'll see kinda thing. Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah.

Sage Grazer
So I can really relate to that. Yeah. And having posted things and then trying to figure out and sift between all these different notifications and see if my posts got responded to or track things down in a way that feels more anxiety provoking than supportive at the end of

Gordon Brewer
the day. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a, I think those of us in this field are kind of recognizing that we need to kind of do things differently and have a different way of, of connecting and networking and getting that support. So I was real excited to find out about you guys. So yeah, so let's dig into the kind of the nuts and bolts of this and tell folks about to kind of I know, it's a lot to put into us into a short, short time period. But what's kind of the A to Z of, of your network?

Kendall Bird
Yeah, so I think so as sage mentioned, the the real heart of it is just like it's a place to connect and ask questions. We have therapists that are sharing client referrals on there, they're asking for resources, like, Hey, do you guys have a nutritionist for my client? You know, because you'd love to offer these resources, I'd say what's a really exciting thing about our community that we think is a little different than others is, so first of all, we have lunch and learns and webinars, which you know, is, but we love to pick topics that are sort of, like, you know, hard to get information on, or like really things that are relevant into what the therapist is going through the modern therapist. So for example, we have a lot of education around how to create a secondary source of income, a passive income, and how to leverage your market, I mean, sorry, your therapy license, it you know, in more ways than just treating clients. Another thing like we've picked topics, like last week, we did a webinar on with a registered sexologist and licensed therapist on how to talk about sex with your clients, because that seems to be a topic that, you know, a lot of communities don't get into, and you don't have a ton of training. So we love to pick Lunch and Learn topics that are just, you know, what the community is asking for, and really top of mine. And I think another thing that we do that's really interesting, and I'm very passionate about because I've, you know, been working in marketing roles for the last 15 years is, we offer different ways for therapists to sort of like Mark market themselves in the modern world. So whether that's like matching you with an Instagram influencer, or having you write a blog post, for frame, because we get a lot of views on that, or we even will place therapists in opportunities to be quoted in a press article as a mental health expert. But I think what you probably can agree with is like the modern therapist has got to get their name out there in ways where clients are looking for it. And sometimes that's social media, sometimes that's in a press article. And we're just trying to sort of like offer opportunities for you guys to get out there and put your name out there.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. Yeah. And I think that's one of the marketing is one of the most intimidating things to a lot of therapists, of being able to get their name out there. And, and you're correct times have changed so much about, about the ways that you, you do that. So, yeah, so what, again, digging a little deeper, what can what sort of kind of what's the format of, of the network and community? And how does all that work? Yeah, I

Kendall Bird
mean, you just go to our site and sign up. And there is an approval process, because we want to make sure you know, check your credentials, we really want this to be a place for therapists not you know, we don't want anyone thinking that random people are jumping in there. And then you kind of just get into the community. And you'll see you'll explore different rooms, like we have a client referrals room, a general advice, room, frame opportunities, is where you'll be able to see the things I just mentioned around, you know, the marketing opportunities, etc. And then we have like an education section, where you can get resources and sign up for lunch and learns and webinars.

Gordon Brewer
Wow, that's great. That's great.

Kendall Bird
Am I missing anything said?

Sage Grazer
No, I think that's a good way to explain it. And, you know, you can also something that some of the other therapists have been really enjoying to is that you can directly message anybody in the community, I mean, meaning therapist, a therapist. And so you know, if I want to make sure that this person is taking new clients, or you know that they're open to taking somebody who's engaging in self harm, you know, and I didn't see that on their profile, I can message them directly and that's also something that's another unique way to connect with therapists in a way that's also doesn't feel like you're reaching out that's in a way that's too personal. It's still professional but you can also connect one to one.

Gordon Brewer
Right? Right. So what are you? What sort of topics? Are you noticing? Kind of, for lack of a better word? What are what's trending right now?

Sage Grazer
For therapists? Yes, I think that burnout is something that I'm hearing a lot about from therapists across the spectrum in terms of new therapists and therapists that have been in practice for a long time. And, you know, I'm, I imagine that that has something to do with the pandemic, and we're all even non therapists are feeling a little burnt out on things. But I think as therapists, you know, we've gone through the pandemic, as well as helped people through the pandemic, and didn't really necessarily have a chance to just process it ourselves. So I think that that might be kind of coming to a head for a lot of providers who are also wanting to just take a real vacation, actually, and maybe go somewhere or do something that feels different than a staycation or something that doesn't necessarily feel as rejuvenating, you know, and a lot of us too, especially in the first year of the pandemic, just worked kind of nonstop, because there wasn't any reason not to, you know, you weren't traveling or you weren't doing things. And that's something that's important to make people aware of, are therapists aware of that they need to be able to schedule that time in for themselves. And there's a big high demand to have people looking for therapy. And so a lot of therapists are getting their caseload are getting really full. And they're just needing to kind of put the brakes on a little bit.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I'm just doing. Again, a universal message across the board that I'm hearing from people across the country, and across the world, really, is that practices are getting full. And, and so yeah, the one thing about that is with with the marketing piece, you have to mark it a little bit differently. And then I don't think there's a lack of clients out there, but they're just making sure that you're marketing in a way so people can find you.

Kendall Bird
Yeah, I think we hear that a lot. I think there's a lot of conversation to around attracting your dream client or client, because you're getting all these calls. And you're like, this isn't the right fit for my practice. And that's really frustrating. And so we see conversations, we also help with resources about like how to really crystallize your, the way you advertise yourself or talk about your services, on your website, or on a profile on a directory, making that really clear. And we've talked about, you know, what else you can add to your profile or website, you know, we have another opportunity for therapists will will help you sort of make like an interesting marketing video where you're sort of talking about your specialty, or niche for five minutes. But really, just to sort of, like connect with the modern client is like, they're they really want to, like, learn a little bit about you and what you're like, specialty and niches. Mm hmm.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, that's very true. So well, what else would folks want? find interesting about, about all of this?

Sage Grazer
Trying to think, I mean, do you want to talk a little more Kendall about, I mean, we can talk about how we help therapist with our discussions, you know, where we, because a lot of therapist want to add a video to their website or profile. And I think that sometimes people, for lack of a better phrase, you know, shoot themselves in the foot, when they record a video, and it's not necessarily they don't feel natural on camera, and they, you know, maybe don't come off as they would, of course, in person. And I think one of the things that we also do is we have a, you know, a team, and we actually help therapists make a video that showcases their skill and their personality, because therapists originally trained, you know, to be a blank slate, and there's still plenty of reason for that. And, you know, you still want to be able to show up that way, with clients. But also, clients are recognizing that therapists are human beings, and they want to see a little personality. And they also know that you have a personality, so they're curious. And it doesn't mean you have to tell people your personal secrets, but just showing that you have, you know, your human aspects. So I think that's something that we do that's unique is that we actually help therapists create a video that really showcases themselves and and then we also promote that and share that with a potential client audience so they can actually see and get an idea of what kind of things this therapist can help me with.

Kendall Bird
For example, like, you know, one of the things that's really interesting are a lot of people are talking about the community's trauma and having a trauma informed approach. But trauma is a very hard concept for clients to understand and I think a lot of people don't realize that they You're experiencing trauma. And we've talked about this before. So when they're looking for a therapist, they're not if you're like, Oh, I specialize in trauma as a therapist, they're not going to come to you necessarily because most people don't realize they've had like, or as I've learned little T trauma. So we've talked a lot about, you know, what are the best ways, like I said, to have a clear messaging that explains what that is, and not use overly clinical terms. And then also like with through these videos, we have a way we guide our therapists to sort of talk about it, and whether it's super relatable. We'll even pull our Instagram community and be like, What are the five things you need want to know about trauma? And then let the therapist answer that question in the video, and we think we're seeing that it's getting such better results for therapists that are trying to attract clients or build their brand. Because it's not just like, hey, I'm Suzy and I see patients from on Tuesdays and Thursdays, it's like actually showing people what you might be like in a session. So I think that's, that's been really interesting for me too, as a marketer, working with a therapist, because I feel like sage and I both represent like, she's the therapist, I'm the client. And sage will say like, I remember we have this almost like a joke. Like, I think when I'm say just colleagues, it said like, I I specialize in sleep hygiene, which is like something like a therapist term. And I was like, I can't say that on your Wednesday, like people like me will read that and be like, I That sounds like someone's like a dirty. Dozen. So like, it's just sort of interesting, sort of like the the clinical way things are described, and versus like how a client would understand that.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, that's, that is so true. And I think one of the, you know, when in my work and consulting with other therapists, particularly those that are getting started is that one of the, I think one of the most important pages on any website is your about page. But I tell them, you know, the your about page isn't about you, it's about your client. And being able to put it in words that just resonate with your ideal client that in and not to get into all this clinical mumbo jumbo and degrees and credentials and all that kind of stuff. Because, you know, not that that stuff isn't important. Most people just really don't care. They just want to know how you're going to be able to help them.

Kendall Bird
Yeah, and people also don't necessarily I mean, I don't need to tell therapists this, but they don't necessarily like want to label themselves as having a problem yet. And so it's really hard like on a Psychology Today Provos, like, I specialize in addiction, bla bla bla bla bla, and they're like, it's just people. So it's just like a really interesting conversation of like, the best way to present yourself. And I will say, like, I'm so proud of the community we built, because I do think it is for like the modern therapist, and for people who are just trying to adapt, like we all are to a post COVID world. And I think for sage, you know, this is her way to give back to her own community. And for me, it's sort of like a love letter, like a thank you to therapists, because I just I've like, have my it's changed my life, you know, going to therapy.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, that is so great. So well, sage and Kindle, I want to be respectful of your time. tell folks how they can get in touch with you and find out more about the front frame therapy.

Kendall Bird
We you can go to tribe, www dot try frame.com backslash therapists, you can also look in the shownotes. We're gonna provide a link for you guys on how you can sign up. And again, it is completely free and available to every state. You just have to have a license.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, and we'll have a we'll have a link, as Kindle said in the show notes for this. And also I'll just mention here, we're going to create a pretty link. Beautiful, it'll be beautiful, it really well. Practice of therapy.com/frame. And so that'll be easy for Pete hopefully easy for her to remember. So but yeah, so, sage and Kendall, any other parting thoughts.

Sage Grazer
You can also check out our social media if you're interested in seeing some of the other kinds of things that we do, which is frame dot therapy on Instagram, which I think is something that's unique and we showcase different therapists in our community, as well.

Gordon Brewer
Great, great. And again, we'll put that in the show notes in the show summary so people can get to it quickly. Well, sage and Kendall I hope we can get you back sometime. And I'm really excited to to learn about this new platform and what it's offering in terms of support to those of us out there in the trenches, so to speak, and really just dealing and really the timing Couldn't be better even though you launched it during COVID. I think it was the perfect time to help help get more support during these overwhelming times, and particularly for those of us that are just getting full with our practices.

Sage Grazer
Yes, thank you so much for having us. It's been such a pleasure being able to talk with you today. Same here much. Thanks.