The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome to the podcast, and I'm thrilled to have back with me one of my dearest, bestest friends, Whitney Owens on the podcast again. And if you'll go back to episode 2 32 through 2 35, you can hear Whitney's takeover of my podcast. That's happened what, two years ago, Whitney?
Whitney Owens: Yes.
Something like that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. So Whitney is also a consultant and she's the owner of Wise Practice Consulting, and she's also the owner of Water Judge Counseling. But Whitney, I. Tell folks a little more about yourself for those that don't know you.
Whitney Owens: Yes. Well, Gordon, thank you. And your podcast has always been special to my heart.
I listened to your show before we met and I couldn't wait to meet the Gordon Brewer. So I feel just honored for our friendship over the years and opportunities to be on your show and your kindness to me. But yes, I'm based outta Savannah, which is on the coast. You can hear it in my accent that I'm in the south.
I love living here. It's beautiful. The oak trees, the beach. It's a great place to raise my family. I have two little girls, ages 12 and eight. Maybe they're not so little anymore, but they are in my heart. I have a husband who is also a pastor. Of a small Methodist church just outside of Savannah. So I have the pastor's wife hat that I also wear at times as well as a group practice owner.
We have a faith-based private practice here in Savannah. It has 18 therapists, I believe in two locations. So we have grown more than I ever anticipated that I would. But God has a way of doing that and then started doing faith-based consulting back in. 2019 because I saw there was just a need for, there's great business consultants out there, but for me, I was wanting to integrate my faith into the process and had a hard time finding that.
And then mm-hmm. God found me and said, you're doing this Whitney. And so I did. And so now we have wise practice consulting, so.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Well, yeah, and it, the thing that's been just amazing in this whole journey I guess Whitney, you and I met in 2018, somewhere around then. That's right. And so but we meet weekly for a mastermind group with two other of our good friends, URI Guilford and Jessica Ana.
And so one of the things that I know has been just so important for me and I, this is really, I think. Whitney would agree with this is the important to have peers and colleagues that you can trust, that you can share everything about your business and, and all of that sort of thing. And just too just.
Really rich friendships that have developed though Whitney and James have become some of my best friends, and they're her. I've gotten to hang out a few times with their daughters and just I have conversations with James that Whitney doesn't even know about. So, but
Whitney Owens: oh, well that makes my heart happy Gordon.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, but today you know, Whitney and I started. Thinking about what we wanted to talk about today. And I think the one topic that comes up particularly for group practice owners is how we retain own, how we retain our employees. Because one of the things that I think we we're seeing a lot is that there's a big shortage of mental health providers mm-hmm.
Just across the country and so. There are lots of opportunities and there are a lot of people that are interested in going into private practice, but I think there's also a lot of people that figure out pretty quickly that might not be their jam, and so they go to work for somebody like me or for Whitney, and.
One of the most costly things for a group practice is to lose somebody. So, but Whitney, I know you've, your practice, you have just built how many, how many employees do you have now? I think 20. Okay. And she's open to second location too, so that's pretty impressive.
Whitney Owens: Well, well, thank you. Yeah, so we just, I've had, let's see, I've had watershed counseling since 2014 and not something I ever planned to do.
I moved to Savannah and couldn't find a job, so I opened my own practice and it worked. And then in 2018 was just busting at the seams. That was after I'd had my second child had come back from maternity leave. And was like, I have nowhere to put all these clients. And so I was like, I guess I'll start hiring now.
Thankfully I hired a business coach at that time. I hear so many people just hire willy-nilly and they make a ton of mistakes. And yes, I did make mistakes, but I. I did have a business coach for two years that helped me through the process of starting and growing my group practice, and I will forever be indebted to that time in my life.
And that was about the time I met you as well, Gordon. Mm-hmm. We were on a retreat together with a lot of group practice owners. But it was in 2018, I hired my first therapist and my third that I hired that year, she's still with me. I was just thinking about her this morning. So she's been with me over six years.
Mm-hmm. She's. Been fully licensed the whole time. Lots of experience over 30 years experience, in fact. Mm-hmm. And so now we're at about 18 therapists right now and I have an intake coordinator who works full-time. I have an office manager who's full-time. We're actually in the process of hiring a second intake person right now 'cause I'm a huge proponent of that intake process, answering the phone live.
And so we're, we're missing some calls now 'cause we're getting so many calls. So we're looking to adding a second person for that. So that's kind of where. We are right now. And you know, Gordon, we were talking about what to talk about today. I just see so many group practices struggle in, in lots of ways, but one of 'em financially that's a big hit is when a therapist leaves your practice.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: You know depending on what you have in your paperwork on this, it could look like a lot of different things. Some people do have contracts that would require that somebody not take clients, like you can't take clients and you can't work within this amount of space from your, you know, this many miles from the group practice.
So there's so many different ways to set that up, and you have to set it up the way that works for you. But regardless of how you set it up, there will be. Some financial cost. Of course the emotional cost is also really high. Mm-hmm. Your morale and your practice, you as a business owner, I mean, it doesn't matter how long I've been doing this, it hurts every time.
And I still have to deal with, am I good enough? Am I cut out for this? Is this what I wanna do? So all that. And the financial loss to your practice when someone leaves.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. Yeah. It's it's always, always important, I think, on the front end to really I think just really outline your expectations for someone.
Mm-hmm. Because I think that you know, I've learned a lot of stuff the hard way of just not really throwing out those expect expectations and, you know, having someone that you think is gonna be a great fit and all of that sort of thing. And it just turns out to be. They're not a great fit.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's only so much we can get in the interview. I mean, I have like a, actually have an eight step interview process that I walk through with people and it's pretty extensive, but you're never gonna know everything through the interview process. People are gonna make their way through.
That's just what's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. And so we can't like, feel bad about that. We can perfect our interview process. We can, like you said, do better about setting expectations, writing job descriptions, in fact. I never had a very good job description until last year. I'm just gonna be honest. I mean, it was like, here's your offer letter, let's chat about it.
But I didn't have it written out very clearly. I didn't say, here are the success measures of getting your notes done on time. Here's the success measure of keeping your clients. This is what it looks like for me. And so as I'm improving that, I think it will improve the overall quality of the clinicians, but they will also know what I'm expecting out of them.
It is so hard, and, and I know you can agree with this, those first few therapists I hired. They struggle with all the new stuff because that's not what it was when they were hired. And that's understandable.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I think you know, one of the things in just thinking about retaining people is, you know, we, we preach all the time.
Just you know, having good systems and processes in place and mm-hmm. Yeah. And so as I think about that, what have you found? That really have been the, the key systems and processes that you've put in place that have helped retain people.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Well, I think it starts right at the beginning in your hiring process that you have a really streamlined, easy system for that that's gonna weed people out, but it's also gonna make it.
Easy for you to see the people that are the best fit for your practice. That could come down to the types of questions you ask in the interview. We also have an Enneagram that we send to them, and we have a very specific email. We do the same email to every person, and it's amazing the responses We get people who don't follow the directions, people who do, you know.
So there's some things there in that process that are helpful in your onboarding process. How do you choose to do that? So it could be that you're doing it through videos or you're doing it through one-on-ones or in a group setting. And I think the way you structure your onboarding speaks to the culture of your practice.
Right? And that's something we have to think about. This is their first interactions with working for you. What do you want those to look like? So for me, our culture is very much personable. Like that's. Waters edge counseling. We make you feel like family when you're on this team. And so when we do our training, we want it to be an interaction.
It's not just watch these videos, take these tutorials, we're sitting down with you and showing you how to use therapy notes. We're sitting down with you and talking through each policy, doing the suicide training, helping you understand that now. That used to be me doing all that as it's grown, I, I don't have capacity, I just can't do it.
And I do think that by me doing it, it sets a standard that I'm the one you come to. Mm-hmm. But now that I've changed it, you know the person that's in charge of HR systems for that, you go to her to understand therapy notes, understand gusto, to understand those things. When you wanna understand more clinical things, you go to your supervisor.
When you wanna understand more managerial things, you go to. Clinical manager. So we bring these people in to do those parts of the training, and I've seen that over time. The newer therapists go to those people because they've been trained by them. And then the therapists that have been here for ages, they still come to me because that's what they've gotten used to.
So I think it really does start with that, with that process right there at the beginning. I think there's some other things. When you're thinking about culture, I mean, I think that culture is really where it starts for retaining therapists, that you're really communicating that in the interview, the onboarding inconsistently, you're going back in staff meetings, you're talking about the values of your practice.
You're talking about the mission of the practice so that you're all on the same page as you're working together to do this within your community. It's not just each therapist on their lone island. You created a group practice for a reason, so you've gotta show them what that looks like.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right, right.
When, when you think about defining your culture, what, what steps, I know you do a lot of consulting with people as well, Whitney, but when you think about how to define your culture, what, what advice would you give around that? I.
Whitney Owens: And this is such a good question, Gordon, and I'm currently working on this even in my own practice because specifically when I was opening my second location, I thought, how do I maintain the culture of waters edge counseling in two locations where I'm not gonna be at both locations?
I can't control that. And as you grow too, culture is more and more important to implement and teach. Because you're gonna potentially lose something if you're not intentional about it. And, and I think that's something I have learned a lot about. Sometimes I'm just like, eh, it'll be fine. No, like the things that are important, I need to talk about them over and over again.
Show them what it looks like. So actually last November. As we were preparing for this new location, we had a three hour workshop and I got some forms completed in advance from team members. And it was some questions about, you know, what values do you see? How do you see these values lived out? What do you love about working here?
And things like that. And then we did a three to four hour workshop where we defined the mission. We discussed values, we identified what those look like. We discussed where we're going. They gave ideas of what they want to do with waters edge counseling. So the team felt heard. They felt seen. And I'm also able to go back and go, Hey, you came up with this.
This isn't just Whitney. The boss said, here's what our mission is. Go do it. We are doing it together, and I think that's really powerful. So we put all that together and I put it all on a worksheet. I also sent them the. The results of all the forms, they could see it. And we meet and we talk about this. In fact, in staff meeting just this week, I said, Hey, here's the worksheet.
Here's what these things look like. How did you see teamwork this week? I. How did you see integrity? What did someone do to express that to you? Let's talk about that as a team. And so my plan is that just about every staff meeting or every other staff meeting, a 15 minute, Hey, let's go back to what we're all about and how did you see this played out?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Were there, were there any things that you got with that feedback that surprised you? Maybe?
Whitney Owens: Yes, definitely. Some of it was about. Feeling confused about the onboarding process and things that we felt were pretty clear. They were feeling uncertain about like some of the policies. So that was good to get that feedback about.
Another thing was feeling like it's, toxic wouldn't be the right word, but just feeling like it wasn't as a friendly, as an environment as it had been. So we were able to spend some time really exploring what that looks like and we're still working on that, you know, because
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: As you grow, there's gonna be more opinions, there's gonna be more gossip, there's gonna be more drama.
And we live in a culture Gordon, where people think the boss is just making all the money. Like that's, that's what's set out there. And we know you and I know as group practice centers mm-hmm. And from working with group practice centers, that is not the case. It's not like I'm gallivanting around the world with all this money that I've made.
I don't live in a mansion. I don't have a really expensive car. You know? But I have to remind them of that. Like, that's, that's not true. You know? And I think the more you grow, it can give that impression if you don't. Kind of go back to what the values are and who you are and help them remember that.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right, right. How, you know, one of the things that I think comes up and just along those lines is I think for, depending on how you're set up, I know for my practice with it being a smaller practice, our clinicians are responsible for collecting from the clients as far as, you know, their payments.
And you know, we've got it set up in therapy notes to where, you know, they can just do it all. In, in line there. Now we do have our intake coordinator that's there some of the time, and she collects it part of the time. But the problem I think sometimes happens is, is that they do see, okay, you're collecting this amount, but I'm getting paid this amount.
And so how do you, how do you handle that with your therapist that, that come up with that kind of stuff?
Whitney Owens: Gordon, I know you can see my facial expression here. This happened yesterday. Yes. Yes. Literally a therapist was sitting in front of me, and first of all, I think it's so important that we're transparent about money.
We need to be talking about if you've got questions. Look, I wanna be held accountable for the way I spend money. That's really important. Mm-hmm. And it's, especially as the group practice grows, that's a harder and harder thing to manage. I know. It seems like, oh, you've got more money, you can do more. Well, you know what, there's a lot more expenses and a lot more people to care for.
And if I'm doing something that's not good, I want someone to tell me. Right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. So he, he sat in my office and he looked at me and he said, so I collect this much when I see a client and you get this much, when I see a client. That's exactly how he said it. And I immediately stopped him and I said, I want you to change your language because that is not what happens.
I don't walk away with that money. Every time you see a client, like he was like, oh yeah, yeah, waters edge counseling. And I said, exactly. And I said, do you want to talk through. Where all this money goes. I'm happy to discuss that with you. And he was like, well, at this point he said, I've already, I've already understand because we've had this conversation a couple of times, Uhhuh, I think it's good to be transparent.
Now, does your team need to know every dollar and everything? And do you always have to have someone breathing down your neck about money? No. And that's not appropriate. Mm-hmm. They don't need to know everything. But I think talking to them about, like for example, for him, he says, I make this much. And I said, you also get retirement matching.
Did you calculate that? You also get health insurance. That's $6,000 a year. I put towards that for you. Did you calculate the taxes that I have to pay on all that money that comes in, there's 20 to 30% gone. Mm-hmm. And I, and then we talked a little bit about opening your private practice. I was like, yeah, these are things you would have to think about if you wanna open a practice one day.
Mm-hmm. Not that I want you not to, but actually being in a group practice, if it's set up really well, you can make really good money.
Gordon Brewer: Right. You know?
Whitney Owens: Right. And he was like, oh. And when I started explaining to him how it is opening a private practice, how hard it is at the beginning financially, he was like, oh.
So, you know. Mm-hmm. And, and they don't think about how much you spend on marketing. They don't think about how much you're spending on the person that takes the calls. I even was sitting down with one of my therapists not too long ago, she's one that's been with me a long time, and I, she's one I like to go to, to get feedback on things, and I said,
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: Hey, I want you to see this. ROI calculator this. I actually got this from Therapy Flow. If somebody's looking for an ROI calculator and you can put in like how much money you're spending on Google ads and different things.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. And it
Whitney Owens: was showing me with this particular clinician, if she doesn't get a client to number six sessions, we don't make any money off of it.
Mm-hmm. That's when we break even. And I said that to one of my therapists, she was like, oh my gosh. I've never thought about that. 'cause all they think about is the money from that session. If they don't get it to sessions 4, 6, 8, we're not making any profit. Right. And profit is not about us being rich, even though it is nice to have some money.
Uhhuh, it's about doing our mission in our community. If we don't have profit, we can't do it, and I can't pay y'all and we can't all enjoy our work.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that's, I think you're exactly right. I think one of the things that is hard for even those of us that are private practice owners is to have that money conversation of really being honest about that.
And also, you know, one of the things that I've done that I think is a really good exercise is, you know, particularly when you do your reviews with your therapist and that kind of thing is. Is to print out or create a document that shows not only what they're getting paid in their paycheck, but also what are the things that the practices are paying for on their behalf.
Mm-hmm. So like you mentioned, the, the, the fica, the, the health insurance. So you know, all of the things, liability, insurance, whatever it might be. And then. Show that as the bottom line. So yeah, this is your take home, but this is, this is what you're actually getting. This is what it costs the company to give you a place to work.
Whitney Owens: I think that's so important, Gordon. That's a good point. You know, when we talk about retaining therapists, another thing that I think I see with practices that's so important is being a W2 based practice at W2 model. And both you and I went through that transformation years ago. Mm-hmm. And it's been super helpful and there's so many reasons why I love W2 that we could do, actually, I think I was gonna say we could do another podcast, but I think we already did that.
Yeah. On your show about ten nine, the W2, I'm pretty sure, but we do tend to find that practices with a W2 based model retain therapists better than a 10 99 practice. Mm-hmm. And so I think that's something to be considered if you're a group practice owner and you're seeing more turnover, y'all, it is so easy for a 10 99 to leave.
We make it too easy. They have their own LLC, their own bank account. Their, you know, they have their own practice in, in essence, and then they come contract out with you. It's too easy, you know?
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Whitney Owens: And we do tend to see with that model, people are less bought in. They're working multiple jobs. You know, when we have a W2 model, people are usually working full time.
They're more, not always, but usually. Mm-hmm. They're more bought into the mission, the vision of the practice. You know, this is my job, you know? Right. And then. We give them so much health, insurance, retirement, and, and we run things for them that it makes it harder to leave because they have such a good setup.
Right? And again, they want to stay with you because you give them a job that they love. You know, it's not just the W2 part, it's a lot more than that. Right. But you are creating something where someone enjoys their job so much that they don't wanna leave. And I, I think that's really important. When we're talking about culture, we're talking about retention of therapists.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I think it's a, the, the, you know, a big point to all of that is people don't work for a paycheck. They work for things that are gonna bring them meaning, or gonna give them purpose, or they feel like they're making a difference that they matter. All of those things are why people stay in a job.
Certainly, pay is important and you don't want to be. You know, working in a place where you're struggling financially or whatever. But I think yeah, I think all of that. And also, you know, one, one thing is a perk that somebody could offer if they have a group practice is just some instruction on.
Financial management, mm-hmm. And just, you know, having people come in and talk about that and that sort of thing. And so there's a, I think there's just a lot of opportunities around how we create our cultures and, and that sort of thing.
Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Definitely. I think considering how you spend time with your team is important.
Mm-hmm. That could be a couple of things. The way you do staff meetings, how often you have staff meetings, are you offering additional supervision, either individual or group supervision at your practice, and what other things are you doing for your team to foster community? Mm-hmm. And to show them that you appreciate them.
So, to kind of go into a few of these for our practice we have staff meeting every other week. And that's a time that we connect with one another. It is a time that we answer questions, address things, and we do this lots of different ways. And as we've changed over time, we've had to change staff meeting as we've grown, I'm starting to find that smaller.
Question, answer times with smaller groups is becoming really beneficial. So even though we get together all on Zoom or, or however we're doing it, we also break up into smaller groups. Mm-hmm. So that people feel heard, you know, and I think it's really important that people feel like they have a place to voice that.
We do group supervision throughout the month. We have a couple supervision consultation, a licensed therapist, one an associate level one and then all the associates get individual supervision as well. We do try to do a quarterly fun event for the team. Mm-hmm. And I, I think that helps. Last event we did, we went and did, actually, we had our Christmas party.
That was the last one. So I, I'm, we're in the process of maybe doing an escape room soon. Mm-hmm. Is that what we did improv comedy a little while back and we hired somebody to kind of just work with our team privately, and that was way more fun than anyone anticipated it being. So we, we like doing that.
We do, birthday gifts. And those go really far. You know, a thoughtful birthday gift can really mean a lot to a team member. So all those things are important that you're implementing to show them that you appreciate them.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah, there's a, yeah, and I think as much as anything, it all comes down to community and really creating community within your practice and just.
People I mean, I, I love it to see when, when my people, they go and do things. I might not be available or whatever, but they still go do things together.
Whitney Owens: Oh, no. Isn't that sweet? Yeah,
Gordon Brewer: yeah, yeah. We
Whitney Owens: just had St. Patrick's Day and right on the other side of the square, two of my employees are hanging out with their parents.
Mm-hmm. Like their parents all came in town and they're hanging out. I was like, this is really special, you know? Mm-hmm. I think another thing I wanna make sure to, to say here, and this is something that's a little more recent that I am really trying to work on and have worked on in my own coaching, is letting go of situations and people that are not helpful to your culture.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens: So, yes, you wanna develop your culture, you want people implementing it, but when you see someone who is doing the opposite of your culture, addressing that head on. I think a lot of therapists were anxious to talk to our team. We think they're gonna leave, we think they're gonna have a negative outcome, and so we don't address situations early enough as leaders.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. We
Whitney Owens: don't set those expectations, and then we get into bad situations later. Yeah. I am notorious for thinking the best of everyone and wanting them to stay at this practice as long as they can, you know, and, and ultimately. Sometimes having a departure can actually be helpful for everyone, for the therapist that's leaving for you, for your team.
And so I just wanna encourage people that if you see people not adhering to the values of your practice, meet with them, discuss that with them directly, not indirectly, you know, Hey, I hear this happened, or, Hey, I. Witnessed you acting this way, what happened here? You know? Mm-hmm. Again, someone asked me the other day, Hey, I wanna be a leader here.
How can I become part of the leadership team? And I said, look, I think you'd be great. But I heard you said this thing last week in front of people. Like, I can't, I can't have you in leadership like that. And I think years ago, I probably would've just Eva that question, right? But not getting better at saying, Hey, this is who we are.
This is what I'm looking for. Instead of, instead of ignoring a problem.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. I think it's, you know, there, there's so much that goes into this and just I, you know, I admire you, Whitney, for the culture you've created and the, and the place that you have there in Savannah. I, I, we've gotta be mindful of our time here and right.
As, as usual, Whitney and I could talk all day and just get into a lot of fun stuff. But Whitney, tell folks about your consulting. We both do consulting and we both offer different mastermind groups and communities and that kind of thing, but Whitney, tell folks about yours.
Whitney Owens: Yeah, thank you Gordon.
So, wise practice consulting, like I said, we help faith-based practice owners specifically. That's our niche, even though we can help anyone. With their private practice. Mm-hmm. There are a couple of consultants that work at Wise Practice. We have specialties as far as solo practice or group practice or cash pay, or we have one consultant that specifically talks about how to find your why creating alternate streams of income.
I personally love working with group practice owners. The topics we're talking about right now, I'm really passionate about and helping people go from an insurance to a private pay practice is something else I really enjoy. You can learn more by going to wise practice consulting.com. There's a lot of stuff there.
Podcasts, summits, mastermind groups. Mm-hmm. So all the things, but if you're interested in working with one of us, you can fill out an application, we'll jump on a call with you just to figure out if this is the best fit for you. Mm-hmm. And then if it is, we can kind go from there. Right,
Gordon Brewer: right. And, and Whitney's got a summit coming up in October, in, it'll be in Greenville, South Carolina this year.
So I'm excited about that.
Whitney Owens: Yes, it's gonna be at the Grand Bohemian again, which I, I love working with those hotels. This one is right on the Redy River, which comes right through Greenville. Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's gonna hopefully be con for continuing education. We're in the process of getting that approval from NBCC right now.
So hopefully we will have that by then. And we have had it in the past. We have, I don't know, 13, 14 different speakers coming. Some of the topics are related just to. Private practice. Some of 'em are a little more faith-based, but the idea of this conference is, from what I know, it's the only faith-based business conference for private practice owners that's out there.
So it's really great and fun and some really great sponsors. Mm-hmm. As well. So looking forward to being with everyone again in October.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And we'll have links in the show notes in the show summary as always, to help you find this easily. Well, Whitney. Thanks again for being on the podcast. I'm sure.
Well, I know for sure you'll be back on here again, but well, thank you. Thanks again for taking the time to, to have this conversation.