The Practice of Therapy

Gordon: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm so excited to have my dear friend Julie Herres back on the podcast. Welcome, Julie. Glad you're here. Hi,
Julie: Gordon. It's so good to see you. We, we are friends in real life and so it's always fun to get to hang out with you for on the podcast too.
Gordon: Julie, for folks that might not know you, which I would be hard for me to believe, but that might not know you tell folks a little more about yourself and.
What you do and how you've landed, where you've landed.
Julie: I'm first and foremost an accountant. I am a lover of numbers. I love to see the story in the numbers when I look at the financials. So I'm the owner of Green Oak Accounting. We are a firm that serves private practice owners all around the United States.
And so I've got this really interesting view under the hood of thousands of private practices and what makes them tick financially. And so. I'm really excited today that we get to talk about tax. I know it's not everyone's favorite subject, but it's been in the news a lot recently. And so, you know, we can kind of catch up on what's going on tax wise.
Gordon: Right, right. Yeah. And I think it's you know, Julie and I have we, we put together a, a course that's still out there, but it's a little dated now, but it's still there. Money matters for private practice and I think Julie one of the things where we really feel it is important for any business owner, really, any small business owner, particularly for private practice owners, is to.
Have a good pulse on your numbers and understand, you know, some things about that. And a big part of that whole thing is because of the taxes. And Julie and I have both heard horror stories where I. People come up at the end of the year in April and they get their taxes done, and then, oh my gosh, they owe like 10, $15,000 in taxes.
And it's just a huge blow for a lot of people. And so so Julie, let's, let's dive into what you've been working on as far as. Possible tax changes coming up that are in Congress and all of that going on right now. You know, as we're recording this on we're recording this on May the 23rd. So 2025.
So by the time this episode comes out, some of those things might have been implemented, so
Julie: they might, they yeah, they, they might actually be lost. So I'm gonna take you back in time a little bit in 2017. When Donald Trump was in office the first time we got the tax cuts and job Jobs act sometimes it's called TJA or TCJA.
So that was tax law that we had implemented in January of, of 2018. Right. And, but one of the provisions there was that a lot of these tax rules that we've been working with for the last several years. We're temporary. So many of these rules like QBI deduction the standard deduction that we currently have, those were set to expire at the end of 2025.
Right. Which is the, the year that we are in at this point. And so that is one, one piece here. And then the other piece I wanna mention is that, this is still going through Congress, right? So as of right now, as of time of recording, this bill has passed the house. It has not passed the Senate. Then there's going to be a reconciliation process, and then it has to also be a bill has to be signed by the president to, to become law, right?
So there's still some hurdles and there's a, a decent chance that some things will change between now and the time it has passed. But, but I still thought it would be helpful for us to chat about it today and kinda look at like, what are some of the things in this bill that are going to affect practice owners.
But you just wanna double check this information to make sure that it's accurate and, and, and Gordon, if anything, I also think this is a great reminder that I. Just of how important it is to work with a tax accountant at the end of the year. Mm-hmm. Instead of trying to DIY this, because like, there's a lot of moving pieces here.
There's a lot of things that are changing and there's going to have to be a lot of recalculation in a lot of things, right? Like we're, my, my team and I are getting ready for Okay. If these things go into place, like we've got a list of. Who are the clients that we need to go recalculate their, their tax liability for this year?
Because things will change and some things that were important are not anymore. And, and the strategies are are just going to be ever changing. So I just think if you're a business owner, it's always a great idea to work with a professional who lives and breathes. This stuff. Right. Because, you know, like tax accountant, we're gonna go through this with a fine tooth comb and you shouldn't, as a business owner, like, you should not have to deal with that because it's a lot.
Gordon: Right. Well, I, it one, one example this year in the state of Tennessee where I'm located we got a, what, what is it called? An extension for our mm-hmm. Federal taxes because of the hurricane relief and that kind of thing. And so it was great news at the time, but one of the things to, to caution myself on, and for anybody that's maybe in Tennessee is I didn't have to pay any of my, I'd already paid my, my federal income tax.
I'd already. I filed it. So that was a done, done deal, but I didn't have be, I hadn't paid my quarterly estimated taxes yet. Right. Well, they have postponed, I don't have to pay anything until November now because of that. But one word of caution for everybody listening is don't. Don't ignore that. Be setting that money aside.
Be paying yourself that money. So one of the things that I do is I have a money market account set up that I put holds just hold money for that in. And so I'll get the interest from that rather than the federal government getting the interest on it. Yes. But so, but anyway, I didn't mean to sidetrack us there, but those are things Yeah.
Julie: That's a, that's a great, great point. We're like, there's a great benefit to not having to pay those yet, right? They're not due, but that also means that everything is stacking up, right. November. That means you'll have to pay first quarter, second quarter, and third quarter all at once. Mm-hmm. And if you're, you know, if you're slowly eroding that money, like it, for some people it probably is a better move to make those payments on time if they have the money just so that they don't accidentally spend it.
Right. Yeah. All right. So shall we jump into a couple things Yes. That are, that are, that are possibly going to change? Right. I'm gonna use a lot of like maybes possibly you know, non permanent terms just because we, we don't a hundred percent know. One is permanent QBI or qualified business income deduction.
So as of right now, right in 2025. QBI is a 20% deduction for pass through income. That's applicable for S-corp, for partnerships, for sole proprietors. That is one of the measures that was temporary in tax Cuts and jobs act, so it becomes permanent. So it's not going away. And it's also going to increase to 23% instead of 20% for followers that are under the threshold.
So slightly increased the amount and it's a permanent deduction. And also the, the thresholds are going to phase out a little bit more gently than before. So there used to be like a 50,000 or a hundred thousand dollars. Phase out that that's based on your adjusted gross income. And so it's going to phase out over a longer period of time.
Gordon: And so what do, what does that mean for people? And just thinking about, I. Okay, should they prepare to pay more, pay less?
Julie: So this actually mean they should prepare to, to pay less if they are below the threshold. So for example in 2025, I think that the, the threshold where the phase out begins is around 191,000 for someone who's single and 383,000 for someone who is married.
And now that's your adjusted gross income, right? So it's not business revenue that's like taxable income. To the, the individual or the household. So that means that if you're below that that income, then you will see an a slightly increased deduction. That means that's going to reduce your, your tax a little bit.
Mm-hmm. Yep. So that is a benefit to to small business owners. Now, if you're above that the phase out threshold, that means that you're currently not eligible for QBI. You're gonna continue to not be eligible for QBI. So it doesn't really benefit you or hurt you in either way. So it's, this is the QBI was really meant to benefit small business owners, and it does continue to do that in this bill.
Yeah, sure. So another item is that the sta the higher standard deduction that we've again, just been used to for the last several years, that becomes permanent. And so if you go back, you know, back in time, and, and some of you may not remember this, but the standard deduction was lower and then there were personal exemptions on top of that.
So we haven't had that since 2018. And that becomes permanent. So for example in, in 2025. The standard deduction will be $15,000 for someone who's single and 30 thou, $30,000 for someone who is married filing jointly. And that's just every year that number goes up a little bit. For example, in 2024, that number was 29,200 for someone who's married filing jointly.
And so, you know, that's gonna continue to go up. But so those, that standard deduction. That is higher is, is permanent. And so again, that does mean that less people are going to itemize their deductions. And that is something that we've seen in the last several years. Just a lot of people don't need to itemize anymore because that standard deduction is so high.
Mm-hmm. And, and that, that typically also benefits small business owners as well. In part because, and I'll, I'll move to this to, to this next one. We have currently a $10,000 limit on state and local tax deduction, right? That's part of the itemized deduction. So state and local tax max $10,000 deduction that really impacts high, high tax states business owners.
So for you in Tennessee, not as much, but like in, you know mm-hmm. If you're thinking California. New York, those are high, high tax states New Jersey. So when you have that $10,000 limit, that means even if you're paying $30,000 in taxes, you're only getting a $10,000 federal deduction. So that does significantly you know, impact them.
So that is actually going up in the current proposed bill. To $30,000. And so again, that will reduce the federal tax for people who itemize in high tax states. And so, again, that's gonna the flip the, the script a little bit for people who maybe it has not made sense to itemize in the last few years because of that state and local tax cap.
Maybe it does make sense this year mm-hmm. To itemize. Mm-hmm. Because that amount go, that deduction can go up to $30,000. Right. And there's been, there, there were a lot of numbers being thrown around in, in the bill as far as like what that number will be. So this is one that absolutely could change at this point.
There, there have been multiple versions of this amount. And so I think that's something to keep in mind. Like, it, it could change and that could. You know, have a different impact if it does.
Gordon: Sure. Sure.
Julie: Another thing when it comes to state and local taxes is for the last several years we've been using pass through entity tax, where a business can pay state tax on behalf of its owner, and that is a way to get around the $10,000 state and local tax cap.
And so there had been talk about that going away. In the current version of the bill that is still intact. But whether it's going to be worth it or not, because of that higher cap that all bets are off there, right? There's gonna have to be a recalculation to make sure, like does it still make sense for you to do this or should you just pay the tax Personally?
We're, we're, you know, accountants are gonna have to take a look at that on a case by case. Basis. So, mm-hmm. This is another one that was really up in the air. In previous versions it was eliminated the pastor entity tax because it kind of, and I'm gonna use quotes here, air quotes, it hurts blue states that tend to be higher tax states.
And so, you know, there could still be changes to that as well. Another really interesting thing specifically for small business owners is the higher reporting threshold for 10 90 nines. So if you you know, for, for our listeners who have been in business for a couple of years, like if you pay.
A service provider more than $600 in a year and, and $600 sure. Goes fast these days. Right? That could be mm-hmm. Like a marketing person. Your website person, it could be an accounting firm, it could be a lot of different service vendors. If you pay them more than $600, you have to issue them a 10 99 at the end of the year.
So that threshold would go from currently $600 per year to $2,000 per year. And so that means a lot of vendors would no longer have to be issued a 10 99. And I know I'm personally very excited for that one. Because my firm issues thousands of 10 90 nines in January, and that means that number would probably go down pretty significantly.
So I think that makes a lot of sense. That number had not been adjusted in a really long time. And I mean, $600 is like two payments of anything really. I mean, it's so rare, right? Right. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It goes so quickly. So this though, as of right now, would start in 2026. So we'll have to see kind of what ends up in the final version of the bill.
So it may or may not apply to, you know, the vendors that you're paying this year in, in the tax year, 2025. We will see what the what the final verbiage looks like. But as a like, kind of side note, it's always a good idea. To get a W nine before you pay your vendor anyways, right? Even if you're not sure, you'll go above the, the threshold, like just get a W nine from them before you make the payment.
That's when you have all the leverage. And then you have the documentation you, you need in case you do need to issue a 10 99. So that has been my advice for many years. It continues to be my advice. Mm-hmm. So that you have what you need in case you, you do need it.
Gordon: Right. Right.
Good.
Julie: Is that the, the, does that end up being the bane of your existence in January?
Like, do you have to issue a lot of 10 90 nines? No.
Gordon: Well, fortunately I've got it. I've got it pretty well automated through, I use Gusto for mm-hmm. You know, most, most of that, that sort of thing. But I don't really have that many, 10 90 nines that I have to pay out to. I mean all of my, all of my people in my practice are employees.
Yes. So, I mean, so that's, that's handled through that. But I've got a guy that, that does my lawn at the office and so I have to give him one. And you know, then my. Virtual assistants and people like that, that I have to pay out to. But I think it's, if you do have 10 99 people, I would invest in something like Gusto and just pay it through something like that.
And that way it's, it's done at the end of the year. There's also there's a service online. I forget what the name of it is. It's like, file my 10 90 nine.com mm-hmm. Or something like that. And they charge a very minimal fee. It's like, you know, two or $3 to file a 10 99 for you. So if you have just a few, it might be worth it just to go into one of those free services.
And they, they, they can, they can mail it or you can. Download it and get it to 'em yourself or whatever. Yeah. But they do all, they do all that.
Julie: Yeah. That's a, that's a great advice, and I find that it's not usually the, the cost that is a problem to the 10 99. It's really the gathering of the information, right?
Mm-hmm. What I see play out, you know, dozens of time every single year is in November and December, we'll identify, you know, to our clients like, Hey, these are vendors that we still don't have a W nine for. But if the last time you worked with that vendor was in March and you haven't talked to them since then, when you reach out and say, Hey, I need this information.
They're less, they're a lot less likely to actually respond to you. Mm-hmm. And in fact, there's some vendors that don't want to report that income. Right. And so they're actively going to avoid you, and it's gonna make it very difficult for you to do what you need to do. So that, that's the problem I see most often.
It's not that, that practice owners don't wanna comply, it's that they often just don't have the right. Information to be able to do that. Right. So yeah, I love a service like Gusto to pay contractors. 'cause then they self onboard, they have all their information in there and Gusto issues it for you that's a great way, right, great way to do it.
To keep it simple. And I would just caution, caution there, like for that to be accurate or, or you know, to work you have to make sure that you're always paying them the same way. Always through Gusto. 'cause I see that. Error happen a lot too, where they'll be like, oh, one payment in Gusto, one was through Venmo, one was over here, and then like, Gusto doesn't have complete information.
And so that's incorrect and needs to be corrected. So this applies for like any vendor that you pay. It's, it's a good idea to always pay them in the same way so that you know where all the payments are and where to find that, that record. Yeah.
Gordon: Right. Good. So, well, what are the things, Steve, have you got that you are anticipating with this possible.
Bill going through.
Julie: Yeah. Another, another really interesting one that I'm keeping an eye on is no more tax on, on tips or overtime pay. And I mean, in theory, that shouldn't change anything for practices and for therapists who are, you know, on, on a W2, right? In theory. Mm-hmm. But in practice, I just don't know.
Every time we get new tax law, we see a whole bunch of new workarounds come up, right? So I can just imagine like that there's going to be people who are gonna try to work the system and I just don't know what that's going to end up looking like so far. For example, would it make, you know, if overtime is no longer taxed?
Would it make sense then for your team members to have a 50 hour work week and then 10 of those hours are overtime, so, so that it technically reduces their tax, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, maybe or are you making a job offer that has a lower hourly rate and a tip included? Like, could that be possible? I mean, could we legally do that, right?
Mm-hmm. We, we just don't know yet. It seems like it's, it's gonna create an area for a lot of loopholes and, you know, people to use it incorrectly as well. Mm-hmm. I, I think there's a lot of opportunity for fraud. I think the intent was probably, I. To benefit people who work in, in, you know, restaurants and the service industry, that a lot, a big, a big chunk of their income is tips.
And, you know, they're disin, they're disincentivized from reporting the tips just because then they're taxed. Mm-hmm. And so, I, I, you know, I, it makes sense. Over there to some extent, although that still is income, right? Like I, I don't think it's better income than, than someone else's income, but I think it will.
There will probably be some bad actors popping up on the scene saying like, oh, I've got this strategy, and you do, you know, pay your team member this way and they're gonna avoid all taxes. And like, we will have to see what the you know, in tax court, how that ends up. Holding up. Right. So I think that's gonna be interesting.
If this, if it, the bill does pass it in this way, I think we're gonna hear a lot about that and, and potential strategies, some shadier than others to reduce tax for our employees that don't necessarily think it's going to benefit the, the business owner, the sell ultimate. So have, well it could
Gordon: potentially reduce the fica that.
Portion that an employer pays out, I guess, or,
Julie: I mean, maybe I, for my reading of this was that it's no federal tax on the tip. Not necessarily no fica, so.
Gordon: Okay. Okay. You know, we'll have to,
Julie: and, and, and, and again, like this is, you know, a big bill, so I have not read every single page. That, that was my interpretation.
So we will have to see how it ends up shaking out. You know, maybe team members might, you might, you might see, for example, Gordon team members. Like if you're, you're going to make an offer to someone, say, well, I wanna get paid in tips only. Right? Like, that could be a thing that people start requesting, thinking they're gonna get around paying federal tax.
Like, I, I don't know how it's going to work. I Yeah. You know. Well, I'm sure we'll get more guidance on it, but like, it's an interesting one, right? Yeah. Like of just excluding those things. I don't know, man. Like I have a lot of salaried team members, for example it on my, just as one example on my tax team, like they work often 70 hours a week during tax season and then 30 hours a week during the summer, right?
30, 32. Because, because of the demands of that specific job. Right. They do tax preparation. Mm-hmm. We have, we have basically like 12 weeks to get everything done for the whole year. Would it make sense for them to be hourly now versus salaried where that has benefited them, them greatly. Right. Evens out.
Mm-hmm. Their compensation for the whole year like that, that might change. It could make more sense for them to be, to be hourly at a lower rate, but then they get a lot of overtime hours. So it's gonna be really interesting. But you could say the same like for your administrative team, for your clinicians like that, you know, how they get paid could, could change possibly.
Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. A another one more thing I wanted to mention is estate tax. Now, this is not necessarily going to apply to everyone, but in, in, you know, in 2018 we got higher, gift taxed you know, estate and gift tax exemptions. So right now it's 15 million per individual, so that means 30 million for a couple that's married.
And so technically that was supposed to revert back in 2026 to about $6 million. Exemption so that it looks like it's going to become permanent at that threshold, and it is adjusted every year as well, so it will continue to go up. So while I would say like still the number of people who are above that limit or are still very, very low, right?
Like the number of of of. It states that we see that are above 6 million. Still minimal, right? There's still not a ton of people, but like that mm-hmm. Is higher. So there is, you know, if, if you're building a lot of wealth, that could be a great benefit. But I would say that that doesn't tend to apply for like most of us.
Commoners, right? Who, you know, always are, are, you know, are hoping to leave a legacy to your, you know, children, grandchildren, all of that. But like, oh, there's just not that many people who have more than, more than 6 million, let alone more than 15 million to, to
Gordon: lead.
Julie: So,
Gordon: sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
Julie: So those are some of the highlights here of Wow.
Gordon: Yeah. It's a, yeah. And so I think it's a, you know, I think Julie, with all of this. It's just good for people to be aware of this. I think a lot of times when those of us that are therapists in this world, we just kind of glaze over when we start talking about taxes. Sure. And, and all of that sort of thing.
But it is real. Just, I really can't reiterate enough. This is something you need to pay attention to, or at least. You know, you need to have somebody, like a Julie in your life where they're on top of it and being able to say, okay, let's, let's pay attention to these things.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And what I've heard from our clients over the last couple months is just a lot of worry about the uncertainty, right?
Of like, we're hearing about there's going to be changes. And sometimes not knowing is worse than, than knowing. And so I would say most of our clients tend to fall, like as far as their taxable income, somewhere between, I'll say like. $50,000 per year to a million dollars per year. Right. Like that. Most of them are gonna fall in that, in that range.
That's a really, really, really big range. Mm-hmm. But I would, you know, that is, that is the reality of small business owners. Right. They're usually gonna be May, some of them are gonna do. Have $250,000 in taxable income per year. And that's wonderful. That's a beautiful, amazing thing. And it has been scary, like, what's going to happen?
And so what I was hoping to accomplish with, with this is just to, to kind of tell everyone, like, it's not, it doesn't need to be scary depending on what, you know, what news channel you are listening to. You're either like, all for this bill or completely against it. And, and I just wanna be somewhere in the, you know, in reality in the middle of that, of like, for most small business owners.
Who are not at the level of poverty like you might see a small tax savings you probably will and you're, you should not be paying more in tax, most likely. Right, right. For each specific situation is gonna be slightly different. So there's not one a one size fits all answer, but like in general, you should be substantially similar to what.
You are paying in tax right now, if not a little bit lower, it's not gonna be significantly lower, right? You're not gonna go from paying a hundred thousand dollars in tax to 50. That's not at all happening in, in this bill. Yeah, but you know, you might go from a hundred to 97 or something along those lines, right?
So it could be in that, in that ballpark. And so I don't think it needs to be scary, but it's definitely something to keep. An eye out and definitely keep an eye out for the final version of this, that whatever becomes law. Because what we're talking about is a, a bill that is theoretical for now. It isn't has it is not currently law.
Gordon: Yeah. I. That's great. That's great. Well, Julie, tell folks where they can find you and we'll have of course, links to all of this in the show notes in the show summary. But
Julie: yeah, thanks for having me, Gordon. I am over at Therapy For Your Money. I have a podcast that talks about all things money. In private practice.
And so therapy for money.com is where you can find me or on Apple Podcast, Spotify. All the podcast areas you can find my accounting firm@greenoakaccounting.com. We always offer a free consultation for anyone who's interested in just. Exploring our services. Super low pressure just to see if it's a good fit for you.
And you can also find my book on Amazon and everywhere books are sold. My book is Profit First for Therapists, and it is a great cashflow management system specifically for therapists in private practice.
Gordon: Yes. And it's a, and in my opinion, it's a must read book for anybody in private practice. Just as a side note, I was doing some consulting with someone here recently, and I said, you've gotta read this book to get yourself on track with your finances.
And it really does break it down into a really easy to digest kind of way so that you're, you're staying profitable. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole, whole thing.
Julie: That's the whole thing, and there's a very kind and generous endorsement from you, Gordon, at, at the beginning of the book, so thank you for that.
But yeah, I mean, the feedback that we get on the book is, is really tremendous. And I'm just a big believer that every practice deserves to be profitable and that it's in service to everyone around you, yourself, obviously as the business owner, but also your clients, your team, everyone, your community. If your practice is profitable, because that means it's sustainable and
Gordon: right.
A
Julie: practice that's not making any money. Ultimately cannot survive very long. And so that's what we're trying to build here. A practice that can survive and sustain and even thrive. Right. Exactly.
Gordon: Yeah. Exactly. Well, thanks again, Julie. So glad you've been been back on the podcast and you'll be hearing more from Julie in the future.
And also check out Julie's podcast Therapy for Your Money. It's also part of the Site Craft Network, which I'm Yes. Thrilled that she's part of all of this with me, so, but. Take care everyone, and thanks again, Julie.