The Practice of Therapy

[00:00:00] Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm happy for you to get to know today. Marissa Wells. Welcome, Marissa. Glad you're here.
[00:00:09] Marissa Wells: Thank you for ha. Thank you for having me, Gordon. Uh,
[00:00:10] Gordon Brewer: yes. Yes. And as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
[00:00:20] Marissa Wells: Yeah, so I am a professional counselor in Arkansas and a clinical supervisor for newly licensed therapist. And um, I'm located in central Arkansas and I mainly help aging families, um, navigate aging issues from, uh, a relationship standpoint, end of life issues. You know, how to make decisions for our family members that are difficult.
And my main focus is to help them stay intact at the end. Because there's a lot of things that can go awry in, in kind of the aging family dynamic, especially with siblings, um, or other family members. So one of my main goals is to help kind of process anticipatory grief and be as prepared as we can for end of life
[00:01:06] Gordon Brewer: and even after.
Right, right. Yeah. And the people that have been listening to the podcast for a while know a little bit of my story as far as been through the very similar situation in that, uh, my wife was in hospice care and we lost her in 2023, but mm-hmm. Yeah, maintaining a practice and keeping things going and all of that is, is a, a difficult thing.
Um, yeah,
[00:01:31] Marissa Wells: definitely when you have to maintain life, but also it seems to stand still at the same time. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting dynamic. I. Right.
[00:01:39] Gordon Brewer: Right. So what got you interested in kind of that niche, if you will? Yeah. Or niche, however you wanna
[00:01:46] Marissa Wells: say
[00:01:46] Gordon Brewer: that.
[00:01:46] Marissa Wells: I know. Niche, niche I think it could be said both ways.
Mm-hmm. Um, so my own family actually, and it's kind of crazy how it transpired over time. Um, it probably began when I was 19 years old when my great-grandmother passed away. And I was the only one present when she did pass away. And so it was a very significant spiritual moment of my life. And it just caught me intrigued about, okay, how, how did we get here?
How does this happen? What happens after? You know, those big questions and over time, you know, life happens. And then I had a family and then I decided to go back to grad school, uh, to help people. We had a family crisis and it just kind of made me realize of I just need to help people who are in our situation, similar situations as we are.
And so I went back to grad school and then when I was in grad school, I met a professor who. Specialized in geriatric psychology. And I just fell in love with the idea of an older population. And I've always had like this kindred spirit. I'm a very mature personality. I can talk to anybody. And so I just fell in love with the geriatric population and, you know, when you first start out.
In counseling practice, no one tells you that you can actually work with the people you wanna work with. It's always the, you gotta go into agency work, you gotta get your hours, you gotta, you know, you can't really do what you wanna do. You just need to get a job, get your hours and, and move forward.
Mm-hmm. And so I wish someone would've told me and poured into me and said, no, you, you're capable of working with the population you wanna work with. You don't have to do it the way everyone else. Does it? Mm-hmm. And so when I'm working with new clinicians, that's what I focus on with them is like, who do you wanna help?
What sets your soul on fire Like that? Those are the people you want to start navigating and gravitating towards. And so. After I got done with my LAC work I built a group private practice and it was kind of the same thing of like I just needed to help people who walked through the door. And so I never really got to touch, um, exactly who I wanted to work with.
I. Plus, um, as an LPC luckily that legislation has changed, but I never could work with a Medicare population. Mm-hmm. My license did not make it so that I could be credentialed with Medicare to work with the geriatric population. So it was kind of like, well, it's a good idea, it's a good dream, but like, is that actually gonna come to fruition?
Mm-hmm. And in my group practice I definitely got to work with several older adults. And it just kind of reminded me of that first love of like, oh yeah, like this, this is what gets me going. And then, um, in my own family, my other grandparents began showing signs of dementia and I. Navigating with my parents on how to care for them and decisions we needed to make as a family.
So uniquely, my dad and my mom are only children and I'm their only child. Mm-hmm. And so it was a very collaborative, like we were all, we had to make these decisions. Mm-hmm. And so we relied a lot on each other. And so. Even with how well my family communicates, there were still things that I was like, okay, if this were me and I was making the decision, I would do it differently.
And so it just started me on this trajectory of like, what would this look like if I did this in my counseling practice and helped people? Mm-hmm. I can speak the language I, I know mm-hmm. Exactly what they're going through. 'cause we went through it. Mm-hmm. And so, um, and it all looked differently in my family, like different.
You know, severities of dementia or one wasn't as severe and still functioning and cancer diagnoses and things like that. And so. Yeah, it just was like, okay. It just opened my eyes and then I sold my group practice and I was like, okay, if I'm gonna do it, now's the time. Like it was a definitely open door that I took and I started just promoting myself as an aging family therapist and connecting with people.
And I've been fortunate to. Put my foot in the door at assisted living facilities, and recently I have become in network with Medicare because that legislation has changed and so, mm-hmm. I'm excited, I'm like ready to go. Mm-hmm. I really didn't wanna do insurance, but it was this decision of like, okay, if, if I wanna work with the people I wanna work with, this is kind of what I need to do for them.
And so, yeah. And then here I am today, just, um, trying to get the word out on how important it is for us to talk about aging family issues. Yes,
[00:06:37] Gordon Brewer: yes. And, and, and I, having, having experienced it with my parents and then, you know, uh, with a, with a wife, I think it's one of those things. It's never something we want to have to do.
But when it, when it does come being able to get that balance between, you know, particularly if you're in private practice, that balance of. You know, how do I continue to see clients or do I take time off? Yeah, yeah. Or what do I need to do in order to take care of myself mm-hmm. And my family, that sort of thing.
And so in, in your work with I guess supervisees, but also in working with people in general, because it's not only unique to, you know, counselors and therapists, but you know, any sort of. As adults, taking care of aging parents and that sort of thing, and finding that work life balance kind of thing.
What are, what are the things that you're running into as you work with people around these things?
[00:07:34] Marissa Wells: Yeah, it really is kind of the decisions of, you know, I have to work, I have to do these things, but I also feel like I have to, you know, be at these doctor's appointments and, uh, for my family members.
And in fact, I have a supervisee right now who's going through it. She is, um, responsible for decisions with her grandparents, and so she's a new therapist. And trying to maintain a caseload work full time and take care of two aging parents at this mm-hmm. Grandparents at the same time. I mean, so it, it is a big issue of like, how do I actually do both at the same time?
And I don't like to use the word balance 'cause I think that it's like this pivot point on a mm-hmm. On a balance. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's almost like a harmony, like a. Uh, if I make this decision, I need to see how it impacts other areas of life, and if I make this decision, what does that look like too? So mm-hmm.
Making decisions as they come, instead of putting like a pressure point of, mm-hmm. Okay. I can only see X number of clients to fill in harmony. You may be able to do it all based on your resiliency. Coping mechanisms like, and so it, it just depends on the person really.
[00:08:45] Gordon Brewer: Right, right. I've heard, I heard, uh, somebody describe it as finding a different life rhythm, um, Uhhuh, which I, I like that way of thinking about it as well.
[00:08:56] Marissa Wells: Yeah, I do too. And really, um, when you think about rhythm and harmony, you have to prioritize things a little bit different. Um, and I think that's what people struggle with the most is what was priority yesterday is not priority today.
[00:09:11] Gordon Brewer: Right? Right.
[00:09:13] Marissa Wells: It's all important. All of it is important and equally important, but what is top priority today that I have to get done or have to decide and what can wait until tomorrow?
And so it's an active decision making process, which comes into this. Really proactive grieving too. Um. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When, when you're, when you're being cognizant of these decisions, you're, you're grieving proactively without know, knowing it. And so I try to help clients and therapists who I touch in this area.
'cause I have people call me all the time. I've my mom and my grandma, you know? Um, it's constant. Like, try 'cause everybody needs this help. We're all gonna face an aging parent. Or an aging family member, right. We're not gonna get away from it. And so like, how do we do it? Well, I think is a big question people ask.
[00:10:04] Gordon Brewer: Right? Right. Yeah. So in just thinking about that, how does one do it well, would you say?
[00:10:10] Marissa Wells: Well, I automatically go clinically and think about functioning. Um, but that's almost like a, um, that's like when things aren't well. Like, if I'm not functioning well, I know I'm not well, but to do it well is, is to really maintain those boundaries of you know, am I sleeping okay?
I'm not saying am I sleeping perfect? But if I'm not able to lay down and sleep at night, what's on my mind and how do I cope with that? How do I say yes to things that bring me joy? I think that is a component of doing things well, is to still maintain that sense of joy, of doing things you like to do.
Um, or even if you can't go do the things, it's remembering the things you like to do you know, don't lose your sense of identity in the midst of caring for others.
[00:11:01] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. I would add to that is really drawing on supports and Absolutely. You know, the people that say, well, let me know what I can do.
Well take 'em up on that. And, you know, there are some that, that maybe not, might not follow through on that. But I know in my own experience, that's the only way I made it through. And um, yeah. And I think too, just the, I think with client, if you're, if you're in practice and you have clients, is making you, you don't have to tell 'em a whole lot, but just being able to say, you know, this is the situation I'm in right now.
And so, mm-hmm. Um. You know, you might need to be, I, I would ask you to be a little bit flexible with me. I might, my schedule might That's right. Might change abruptly. Uh, yeah. I might have to, you know, cancel at the last minute or any of those kinds of things, but I just wanna let you know upfront. Yeah. And I found that, that most, most all the clients that I had, in fact, all of my clients were very understanding.
And I think it also gives, uh, that little bit of disclosure really helps. Kinda create some genuineness about you in that they Absolutely. And a
[00:12:12] Marissa Wells: humanness. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that is a wonderful point of just being transparent. And I would say if you have friends or family that are going through this thing, um, as well, you know, we always say, let me know how I can help.
But I like to encourage people to think about how do you feel? Most skilled to help for me personally. Mm-hmm. It's I can go in and do your dishes. I can do your laundry and so I'll offer, Hey, I'm available on Wednesday afternoon. I would love to be able to come do your dishes and laundry. And not many people have turned me down for that, right?
That is a practical way. Like if I know someone is struggling, I'm not gonna say, mm-hmm let me know how I can help. I'm gonna say, here's my boundary of my timeframe, and I want to help you in this specific way.
[00:13:02] Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yes. Or if you need, you know, like, uh, can I pick your kids up for school? That's it.
Or, yeah, all, hey, I wanna take the kids out, out to dinner,
[00:13:10] Marissa Wells: you know, give you a night off or whatever, like mm-hmm. I want to do that for you. Absolutely. If you can figure out a practical way. But I think where people can get burned out. On helping others is when we don't provide that boundary of like, okay, mm-hmm I've been gone Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday night.
I probably shouldn't say I can help you on Thursday night, but to really navigate that in a true boundary, in a healthy boundary. Mm-hmm. Um, kind of sense.
[00:13:38] Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. Yeah. And you also mentioned just allowing ourselves to grieve. Mm-hmm. And giving, creating space for that. And I think that's so, so important.
I was talking with somebody the, uh, this past week, uh, just talking about grief and that grief is not something you get over. It's something you. You move through. Mm-hmm. And so being able to, um, think about it in that way and that you're gonna have, uh, what I call meltdown days or meltdown moments, and just allow yourself to do that.
[00:14:13] Marissa Wells: Yeah. And to actually feel I actually had someone say that last week about, you know, I feel like I should be over it by now, and, you know mm-hmm. We talk about like, what makes you think that, you know, what expectations do you have of yourself, you know, that kind of thing. This is something you've never been through, so how can you know that you should be over, you know, just kind of challenging those belief systems about, uh, what grief is and what grief isn't.
[00:14:37] Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. That's good. That's good. I like that. So to switch gears a little bit, I know Marissa, one of the things you do enjoy doing is supervising new therapists and helping integrate them into practice and learning about private practice and that sort of thing. So say some things about that.
[00:14:57] Marissa Wells: Yeah.
Um, well, one of the first questions I ask, uh, a supervisee when they, you know, become a supervi supervisee of mine is I just say, um, who do you wanna work with? And, you know, it's usually the, well, I just wanna help people. And so I really try to get them to dig in on, um. Reflecting on their own life and what has impacted them the most.
Typically, our, um, preferred population is kind of relevant to our own life, like we are our best client, mm-hmm. And so because we can really speak. To the internal dialogue that someone has. And so really challenging, challenging them on who set your soul on fire if you could do anything and money wasn't a problem.
So we gotta kind of go through like miracle questioning mm-hmm. And, and kind of open up the mind about who they wanna work with and Right. I love it. I love it so much. Mm-hmm. I think there's a lot of limiting beliefs, um, when you first start out in therapy that, you're less than, you're not equal to.
Mm-hmm. A seasoned clinician. And so I mean, I, I know some seasoned clinicians that, um, probably aren't as well equipped as a new clinician. And so I try to kind of. Help them fight through all of those negative perceptions about themselves.
[00:16:22] Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it is, uh, I know for me, I've been doing this a long time, and when you figure out what your niche is, if, if you figure out what you're passionate about, it makes you a much better clinician actually, I Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, because you really, you, you really understand whether it's something that's happened to you personally or you've been through yourself, but, yeah. You just have much more insight into things and yeah, it just goes, goes a long way. So. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:16:53] Marissa Wells: and I think it can change. Um. Mm-hmm. We often think that it's a forever absolutely.
Decision and it's not.
[00:17:00] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely. Well, Marissa, I know we've gotta be thinking about our time here, but tell folks a little bit more about some of the work you do outside of therapy. I know you're doing some consulting and working with newer, newer therapists and that kind of thing. So,
[00:17:17] Marissa Wells: yeah, so, um, I actually have a free resource group.
It's called The Aging Family, um, on Facebook. And it's just a free resource for people to use. Um, I'm just trying to get you know, this is gonna be a huge demographic issue that we're seeing in the next 20 years where we're all gonna be facing this aging family issue. And, um, and so I just wanna a place for people to go to, um, to find the resources that they need.
I am consulting with assisted living facilities and physicians in our area about how to integrate mental health with kind of the geriatric population mm-hmm. And how to help caregivers and family members who may be struggling. And so, yeah, I do a lot of trainings and consulting and coaching too.
Really. Mm-hmm. For individuals who maybe don't want, individual therapy, but can find usefulness in some of the things that I offer.
[00:18:14] Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. Well, it's a much needed niche and a much needed service that, that you're providing there because, uh, until you go through it you really don't, uh, people, I think it's something we put outta mind, but when you go through it, knowing how to navigate and getting the support you need is so important.
[00:18:35] Marissa Wells: Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah, for sure.
[00:18:37] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Well, tell folks how they can get in touch with you and, uh. That sort of thing.
[00:18:42] Marissa Wells: Yeah. So my website is m wells.co not.com. I've found that people try to go to.com, but it's m wells.co. And you can find all of my clinical and uh, supervision things on my website. And then my free resource group on Facebook is facebook.com/the Aging Family.
And so that's where I'm located. And, uh, psychology Today as well. Um, I'm on there. Mm-hmm. Uh, for clinical issues too.
[00:19:15] Gordon Brewer: Sure, sure. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary for folks to get to that easily. So, well, Marissa, I enjoyed our conversation and hopefully we'll be able to do this again.
[00:19:25] Marissa Wells: Yes, thank you so much, Gordon.