The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer:
Well. Hello everyone and welcome again to the practice of therapy podcast and I'm, I'm so excited for you all to get to know any Schuessler and Annie and I met online and any reached out to me and she's another kindred spirit and this whole private practice space. So welcome Amy. Glad you're here with me today. Thank you. So much garden. So nice to be here. Yes. And Annie is, I believe you're located in San Francisco. That's right. She was gracious enough to start early with me being on Eastern time. So that's, so, but now Annie is I, as I start with everyone tell folks a little bit more about yourself and your private practice journey and how you've landed here you've landed.
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah, thank you. And I also want to say I, I love talking to you, Gordon, and I feel like as much as I think people are tuning in for all of the great information that they get, you must also have the kindest voice. And so it's just really nice to talk to you. So, so for me, I've been a therapist for over 20 years now and my private practice started so back 20 years ago and when I was starting out I really had a hard time with the business side of things and I found that even though I was enjoying the work and I was loving my clients, I really had a hard time embracing the fact that I was a business owner and I'm kind of a nerdy person. So for me the way that I handled that was that I did a ton of research, I learned a lot about business and I really kind of cracked the code for myself about how to build a therapy practice.
Annie Schuessler:
And so that's kind of like chapter one is creating that therapy practice and getting into the business side of it. Starting to share what I was learning with my friends and colleagues. And then chapter two I had this really thriving therapy practice. I was specializing in couples therapy and really with high conflict couples, I spent a fortune getting certified in the Gottman method, which I still absolutely love and value and learning emotionally focused couples therapy. So I had this thriving couples practice. I was bringing in a couple of other clinicians to work with me so that we could handle the inflow of clients. And then I had this moment where I realized that I was headed for burnout, that this practice I had worked so hard to build and that I had dreamed of now that it was happening. It actually wasn't right for me.
Annie Schuessler:
And I was, I was headed to burning out and I was headed to dreading the amount of sessions I had every week. And I was kind of freaked out about this honestly because I was the major breadwinner in my family. And you know, we have a couple of kids and I was really concerned about even telling my wife that this was what was on my mind, that I, you know, I needed to make some kind of pivot. Luckily she was totally supportive and what I told her that I needed to expand my business in a different direction, that I needed to go beyond the therapy room and do some different kinds of work. She was really supportive. And that's where kind of chapter three starts where we, you know, we agreed, yeah, I can dive into this, I can learn about this. And so about 10 years ago I became a business coach. And so that's where this whole journey started of creating what's now rebel therapist and working with therapists and healers on their businesses and taking their businesses
Gordon Brewer:
Beyond the therapy room. Right, right. A, yeah. And as a, as you were saying all that, I was just thinking your journey kind of parallels mine as well. I mean, I think I've, you know as I said, as a key kid with my clients, the you know, I'm kind of the old fart in the room and so I I, I realized that, okay I love the work, but at the same time you kinda reach a place where you kind of plateau and you just kind of, you it's not really that you hit a ceiling, but it's just kinda like, okay, you want to do more and you want to help in a different direction. And I think that's, you know, again, very parallel journey with what you, the reason I started the practice of therapy is that, you know, I realized, okay, there's a lot of people out there that want to do some good and truly help people, but they don't have necessarily the framework or the know how to put it all together into a business. And so, yeah. So that's, that's exciting.
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah. And it's really, it's, it's really liberating that we get to use different parts of ourselves in these new businesses.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, so in your work and doing this so far I think the, the thing that resonates for me is I think all of us have kind of that creative side and being able to feed that. What, what are you finding with the people that you're working with that really the, I guess maybe the pain points is part of it, but also why they'd want to, you know, delve into something outside the therapy therapy room.
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah. I, that's such a great question. And I've been noticing a couple of different kind of types of folks who are really drawn to creating a business. The therapy room, and of course there's a ton of overlap. I'm not trying to put people in boxes, but one kind of person is headed to burnout. So they are hitting a ceiling in terms of the number of hours they can work. They have built a successful private practice and they can just see all right now what I've built this thing to as far as it can go and I want to use my time differently and I want to be able to kind of leverage my time and leverage all of this learning and experience into something else as well. And then the other kind of person may not even have a full practice yet and they may just be growing their private practice, but they already see that there's another part of themselves that they want to bring out into the world. Or there's another message they want to bring out into the world. And like you said, creativity is a huge value for them. And so from the very beginning, they want to create some kind of program beyond the therapy room so that they can express their full selves and work with people in these different ways.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Yeah. So what are, what are some of the different ways that you have seen that come to fruition for people? In terms of getting beyond the therapy room and just trading your, I guess, trading your time and your expertise for money in the traditional way in which we sit with people in the therapy room. What are you saying that resonates with people?
Annie Schuessler:
What I'm seeing really work for people is to create a, create some kind of program that they can get started with quickly. So we, we tend to have these big dreams and these visions of what it could look like, what our empires could look like. And so that part people have amazing ideas and so people dream up community memberships, they dream of, you know, retreats and workshops and group coaching programs, all of these wonderful things and those are absolutely possible. And the first step is creating something that is really doable more quickly so that before they've grown a huge audience, they can actually start testing a pilot program, you know, our a beta program beyond the therapy room, and then grow that, reiterate that, and then grow that towards that vision of the empire. So that's what I'm seeing. When people are able to do that to start quickly and test something really early in the process, then I see them getting early wins and being able to move forward as opposed to maybe folks who have this huge vision and maybe don't have a bridge between how am I going to get from here to there.
Annie Schuessler:
Right. And so then maybe even saying, Oh, well that's overwhelming. Don't know how to do that. Right, right. It's really kind of moving from the
Gordon Brewer:
Kind of the, the paradigm shift of doing one to one work to doing though one to many work, I think is the way I think about it.
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah. Yeah. And in growing a therapy practice, I'm not trying to say it's [inaudible], excuse me, I'm not trying to see, it's easy to grow a therapy practice. I know there's a ton to learn, but we see people around us doing it. There are people to learn from and to kind of model ourselves after. But once you go into this terrain of growing something beyond the therapy room, you really have to create your own vision. And I think that's both exciting and overwhelming for folks. Right,
Gordon Brewer:
Right. Yeah, it's a, you know, one of the things that comes to mind for me and just thinking about you know, going beyond the therapy room and growing things beyond that. As you mentioned earlier, there is a cap to that. There is only so many clients we can see in a day only. So, you know, as a, as an individual doing the one to one work or the one you know, doing couples work or whatever, there's only so many of those we can back in two a day. And so you reached that, that ceiling or that kind of, that plateau if you, you will. And so then you have to really figure out, okay, how do I create passive income for myself? And there's, there's a lot of different avenues with that. And again, you, you want to throw some ideas out there for people to, that might be thinking about that. I think, you know, kind of the next logical step for a lot of people is okay, but I'll start a group practice. I'm gonna, you know, bring on other clinicians so I can duplicate my efforts. And that, I think that's very a very lucrative way to kind of move into it. But what about, what are some of the other ways that you're finding that people are resonating with?
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah. And thanks for bringing that one up because that is a fabulous way to go. And it's not for everybody, right? I actually tried that myself and I ran a group practice for a few years and I discovered that what I really didn't want to be was a manager. So, so for folks who that's a good fit for fantastic. But yeah, so some of the things that I see working really well for people are creating, starting with perhaps either a very small group coaching program or even a one on one coaching program. So creating a separate website. This is going to be a separate business so that you're not taking any chances with your fax or with your life since creating a separate business. And then just starting with one program. So it could be one on one coaching where you're really walking through people through a process, within a very particular niche and a very particular outcome.
Annie Schuessler:
Or it could be a small group coaching program where you've got, you know, you could even start with three people who you're walking through a process that brings about profound change in one particular area and then iterating that and looking at what worked best here and you know, what do I need to shift for next time? So I see people growing their businesses into, you know, membership communities can be such a wonderful way to bring people together who share a particular problem, who share particular identity may be, and to be able to add value by bringing them together, which is something that we don't get to do as therapists. And then I also see of course people creating courses and and that can be such a rewarding way to bring together a lot of the stuff that you've learned and that you love teaching over and over again to be able to create a course out of it.
Annie Schuessler:
And I will add for that one, sometimes people come to me and they're dreaming of creating kind of an evergreen course where they're going to create this thing and then they're never going to touch it again and they're going to make a ton of money. I don't really advise that, I don't really see that working except for like, it works really well for people like Oprah. But I advise people to at least start with a lot of interaction where you're just adding tons of value by actually being with the people who you're serving and then pulling back from there. But yeah, those are some of the kinds of business models that I see really helping people thrive and that I also see people really enjoy being so looking for what is it that you like, how do you thrive? Like I was just talking about how you have this really kind voice.
Annie Schuessler:
I can imagine in your programs you're bringing a lot of kindness and you're helping people feel comfortable. You're bringing people together. So looking at like what for the listener, what are your superpowers and how can you bring those into a pilot program to be more of you and bring a lot of value. Right, right. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I know that and just started emails, one of the things that you touched on is you know, therapists and counselors are really well suited for doing this kind of thing. You want to speak to that a little bit? Yeah. I mean, one thing that kind of excites me is this self-help and personal development industry is enormous. And I really see, I, I'm not at all wanting to put down anybody who doesn't have our particular training. Cause I know a lot of folks have a ton to offer from their personal experiences and that's, that is fantastic. And people who are licensed therapists, trained healers, we really should be some of the leaders of this industry. You know, we've got so much experience and we care so much about the ethics and we're not in this just to make a buck. We're really in this to transform people's lives. So I think we're in the perfect position to step into this industry and to create our own programs.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. One of the people that I interviewed on a previous podcast episode was Katie Morton and I don't know if you know who she is or not, but as you're speaking of this, I was just thinking about, you know, most of us go into this profession you know, counselor, therapist, psychologist, that sort of thing. Out of a sense of truly wanting to help people. And I think one of the things that can we can limit ourselves by is thinking that the only way they help us is through sitting with folks in the therapy room. But my goodness, there's a whole other world of people that are helping and in really kind of other ways. And Katie was one of the people that kinda got me thinking about that more and that she has a wonderful YouTube channel that just deals with all things mental health and and and so I think being able to tap into that and being able to look for ways in which you can as like you said, leverage that to where you're helping people, but it's also with different avenues of help.
Annie Schuessler:
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, there's someone who, just to give you another example, I'm going to have to check out Katie, that sounds exciting. There's a woman named Kelsey Harper, who's right now building a community and programs for women who are survivors of sexual assault. And her work is because she's creating a podcast and she's creating a community, she's going to be able to help people in a totally different way than you can when you're just meeting with someone one-on-one in the therapy room, bringing people together and helping people empower each other. This is really exciting stuff. And like you said, it's the way that it's really limitless, the ways that we can be working with people.
Gordon Brewer:
Right. I just had an aha as you were saying that you know, one of the things that most of us do and working with clients is we'll give them homework because we know that really the, the work of therapy really occurs outside the therapy room when they go to apply the things that they've talked about and explored and all of that. And, you know, we have a great opportunity to kinda coach people through that outside the therapy room. And so, yeah. And so I think being able to tap into the kind of that niche is is a good thing and being able to think about it in that way.
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah. And being able to allow people to support each other in doing their homework, I think is so helpful. I don't know about you, but I've had a lot of people not do their homework. They assign it in therapy. And I find in my coaching programs, people get a lot done when they're in a cohort working together. So there's something magical about that. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. And that's you know, and that's a yeah. You know one of the things that I've been doing is starting a mastermind groups and focus groups for other therapists to do exactly that, of being able to be in a cohort where you really with likeminded people and you know, you really feed that whole creative side of things of and being able to see things from other people's perspectives and that's where we throw and get, get, get ahead. So, yeah,
Annie Schuessler:
I agree. And I think a lot of the value that we're bringing, I mean, of course we are of service and we're bringing everything we have to our programs, but at the same time I noticed that a lot of the value is bringing these folks together. So these people who identify for me, the people who identify as rebel therapists and want to create something magical beyond the therapy room, just by being together in a program, they're really getting a lot more done and they're getting really excited about each other's projects.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. And as you, as you have alluded to already, really the, the key to all of this is forging relationships, forming relationships, and, and being able to, like you said, bring people together and to be, because that's really why therapy works is because you form that therapeutic relationship with, with the client and that's where the healing comes in. The help comes with all of that.
Annie Schuessler:
Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah. Yeah. So, well, Annie, I know we could go on and on probably for hours talking about most, all of the stuff that I want to be respectful of your time. Tell folks how they get in touch with you and learn more about the work that you're doing in terms of coaching and helping people and that sort of thing.
Annie Schuessler:
Well, thank you Gordon. So yeah, the best way, because I'm obviously you're a podcast listener, the best way would be to go on over to my podcast rebel therapist where you can just hear some stories. I interview people in every episode who are creating businesses beyond the therapy room. And then if you want to check out what I have to offer, head over to rebel therapist.me.
Gordon Brewer:
Yeah, that's great. I guess that put you on the spot here a little bit. Is there a particular story that just kind of resonated with you here lightly that you've heard from somebody that's a,
Annie Schuessler:
Yeah, so this is someone who I've been working with lately. I'm working with someone who is creating a program for women corrections officers. So that is just really inspiring me because this is such a particular group of people with a particular set of really painful experiences and I have no idea what those experiences are. Right. I can only guess, but the person who's putting this together is a therapist, a social worker who was a corrections officer herself for several years before she became a therapist. So she's going back and she's giving back to this community by creating a program for them. So that's just one of the stories that's been
Gordon Brewer:
Right. Right. Yeah. I love that. I love that. That's yeah, and I think that's you know, one of the things too, and I know that I stopped this and then we kept going, but what, what are the things that I'm really figuring out that really resonates with not only clients but other people, is to be able to share our own experiences through things. And, you know, one of the, one of the stories that I share with people are just I guess fun facts or interesting facts about me is I worked in the funeral business for over 18 years. I was a funeral director and was actually an embalmer and all of that kind of thing. And, and so it's, I'm pulling that into things is just really I think just kinda resonates with people some degree in terms of we all grieve at different times. But and I guess my point with all of that is, is think about your own life stories and just the things that you've experienced in your own life that may be, have been learning experiences or even hardships or whatever, and to be able to share that and to be able to leverage that of being able to help others in that way.
Annie Schuessler:
Oh my God, I love that. Yeah. And that is something that you're uniquely suited to give people. And I should just, I should mention her name since I talked about, her name is Debra Somerville. And just like Deborah. Yeah. I think each of us has something that we can go back and we can give to people that probably nobody else can do.
Gordon Brewer:
Right, right. Well, well, Annie, I'm so grateful to you for joining me on the podcast today and hope to return the favor for your podcasts. I know I've had, I've already subscribed to your podcast, so be sure we'll have links to everything in the show notes here and folks, be sure and check her out@rebeltherapist.me.
Annie Schuessler:
So like say, Annie, thank you so much, Gordon. This has been such a treat. Yes. [inaudible].