The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really excited for you to get to know today, Dr. Julie Merriman. Welcome, Julie. Glad you're here.
Julie Merriman: Thank you. I'm so honored to be here with you.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. And some people might know Julie from, she's got a, a YouTube channel, and we'll talk about all of the different her books and things that she's done.
But Julie, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Julie Merriman: Ah, yeah, there's no straight path. My daddy always told me I did everything the heart way. So I have well I'm a professor and been a counselor for 30 years and it's just always been on my heart to help others.
And through this as I was working with my interns and my students, I discovered that they'd come in just real perky, like, who gonna gonna tackle the world? And for some reason, I never knew why until I started researching it. About six weeks in, they'd just be dragging their legs across the floor like Igor, you know?
Mm-hmm. What's happening with y'all? And that is what? Piqued my interest to start researching burnout and compassion fatigue. Sp specifically in our profession, the helping professions.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah.
Julie Merriman: Yeah. And, and through that, I mean, I still have a private practice, but I tend to be a therapist for other therapists mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Working
Julie Merriman: with helping us stay in the profession. Right. And, and having a quality of life in the profession. Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: So,
Julie Merriman: That's, I guess that's the short story there.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And I know as, as we were chatting before we started recording, I know. One of the things that you are a big proponent of is, is that, and, and this really resonated for me, I think it's very easy for us to get disconnected from ourselves.
And so you wanna say more about that and just Yeah, just how you kinda landed on that.
Julie Merriman: Absolutely. It, well, it was through my research when I discovered that we don't often know how to receive and, and then my own story, when I went through breast cancer last year and I had sweet friends bringing food to the house, and, and I would, you know, we have this helper default.
Oh, I'm fine. Really. I don't need any. Mm-hmm. And I had one girlfriend look me in the eyes and go, Julie, would you just let me love you for five minutes? Mm-hmm. And it, it struck me in that moment, I, I've been a bridge for everyone to healing in my career, but I didn't know how to receive that. Right.
Which really led me to research a little bit more. And there's really three disconnections, if you will. We have disconnection from our body where we're floating heads of competence. You know, we have all sorts of good knowledge, but it's up here. We don't feel it. And I do a lot of shocker work. I'm also a yoga instructor with my patients.
So I, I, I just think it's very important we get embodied and feel what we need to feel because what's that old cliche, you gotta feel it to heal it. You gotta need to change it, right?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So,
Julie Merriman: you know, just the simple act of putting your hand over your heart three times a day and saying, what am I actually feeling?
It's very powerful for us in the helping profession. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then there's a disconnection from reciprocal relationships I mentioned we're, our relationships are often one way streets. Everyone leans on us, but when it's our turn, we get to that default. Oh, I'm fine. I don't need anything. And I just don't know when needing become such a sense of failure for us as helpers.
Yeah. So a reconnection there is, you know, just start with a whisper. Could, could you sit with me for five minutes? I just need to fall apart without, mm-hmm. Without being fixed. Mm-hmm. Know we wanna fix,
Gordon Brewer: you know? Right. Right.
Julie Merriman: Then the last disconnection that really resonates is that disconnection from purpose beyond performance.
So much of what we do as helpers is based on performance, and I mean, our worth even becomes connected to that performance piece, which makes that sacred. Why disappear? And that's where we lose people, Gordon, in this profession.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right.
Julie Merriman: Really doing some work and the holidays are coming. I mean, it's a good time to take a few minutes and reassess where we are.
Mm-hmm. Anytime is a good time, but to really reconnect with that sacred why of why we decided to wanna help people. Mm-hmm. When we come, become disconnected from that purpose, things kind of feel flat. I tell you what, it leads to burnout, compassion, fatigue. I'm just Right,
Gordon Brewer: right.
Julie Merriman: Convinced it does.
Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, that, you know, it's, it's interesting because I'm, as you're speaking about all of this, one of the things that I've really enjoyed. Delving deeper into over the last several years is, and you you're probably familiar with it, is the Enneagram. Oh. And one of, one of the things that I think a lot of us in our profession probably fall in the category of an Enneagram two, which is the helper.
And I know that that's, that's where I am as well. And, and one of the big faults of twos. Is that we get so much of our self worth from helping now. That's a great. A great thing to aspire to, and it's, you know, it, it resonates with us. But the, like you said, the problem becomes is, like you said, it's a one-way street and that we're so focused on helping others.
We really lose touch with what we actually need and want for ourselves. And I know that's been a big journey for me and my own therapy and my own work is just really recognizing, you know, what is it that I need? What is it that I want? And then knowing how to receive that and ask for it and, and recognize it, you know I didn't share this with you, Julie, but I know a lot of people that have listened to my podcast recognize know this about me, is that I went through the caretaking of my wife until she passed away in 2023.
And so that was just, you know, just. You know, you talk about losing yourself. Yeah. And just a helping role and then trying to maintain a practice and then right. You know, being, being on for people all the time, I think is, is something that's, something that it we have to pay attention to. And like you, I think you said, I don't know if you said this after we started recording or not, but just giving yourself permission.
I just need to fall apart here. I just need to
Julie Merriman: just
Gordon Brewer: need to, yeah, yeah,
Julie Merriman: yeah. Because it's unsustainable, otherwise is unsustainable. One thing I didn't mention. When I was going through my breast cancer, my husband's been battling brain cancer, so we had two Oh,
Gordon Brewer: wow.
Julie Merriman: Two of us going through cancer.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Julie Merriman: And, and that caretaking piece that you mentioned, it's all consuming.
Its all consuming. And to find mm-hmm. A piece of you that's able to show up for your clients. I mean, it's just mm-hmm. We're only, we're human. There's only so much of us. Right. And, and to give ourselves more permission to fall apart. 'cause as you said, you, I keep myself in therapy. I think I heard you say you keep yourself in therapy.
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I therapist must keep ourself in the, in therapy. Mm-hmm. So we have a place to fall apart. Right. But we also need. To allow ourselves to be v vulnerable and fall apart in other places, just in our therapist office.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. And I think that's yeah. You said, you said something earlier that just, I, I think it really resonates, I think for a lot of us is, is that we consider ourselves the experts using air quotes here.
We think that if we can't handle things or we don't handle things well, then there that somehow or another negates the fact that we're an expert or that we don't know, or you know, we're, we're a failure as a therapist because we can't manage our own stuff, and that's such a myth, such a misnomer and such bs.
It's just, yeah.
Julie Merriman: Yeah. Complete misnomer. In fact, and as I said, I, I tend to be a therapist for other therapists. Mm-hmm. And if I have someone sit in front of me and go, I'm fine, no, everything's fine. That's where my antenna goes up and like mm-hmm. Right. We've gotta be honest first with ourself before we can embrace all these things.
'cause think what we ask of our clients in our private practice.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right.
Julie Merriman: How it feels to sit and just let all that emotional rawness come out.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julie Merriman: We've gotta do that for ourselves.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. So, you know, one of the things I know that you have done some stuff with Julie, is also helping people kind of get back in touch with kind of the body connection and knowing what we feel.
You know, it's, it is, it's kind of a joke, but we usually think of men being ones that can't really get in touch with their feelings. It's just kind of that stereotypical thing, you know, well, you know, what are you feeling? Well, I'm not hungry, I'm not cold, I'm not hot. So. I don't, yeah. So what? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
So te tell us about how you, how you work with people around that, of getting in touch with that part of themselves. I love that
Julie Merriman: question because, you know, in that I. It's, it's very somatic. I do a lot of body scans. As I mentioned, I'm, I'm also a yoga instructor, so I bring mm-hmm. I, I mean, I'm not woowoo, it's all scientifically backed.
Chakras are real. Mm-hmm. We're energy beings, right? Mm-hmm. But. I do, I, I start every session with a full body scan. I want my client to sit quietly. Now it takes him a hot minute to get used to that. Like, oh, Jules is gonna make me do this body scan and mm-hmm. But we start at the crown, from the crown to your eyes, to your throat.
Where we are bottlenecked, we have so many emotions in our throat. I cannot tell you how many times people start crying when they just think about that throat chakra. Mm-hmm. That, and I'm not necessarily saying throat chakra in my mind's eye. I know what I'm measuring. Right. Then I have 'em think about their chest to their upper belly, lower belly from their sits bones all the way down to their.
Tippy toes, which I've taken 'em through the seven chakras if, if you're a yoga person. But even if not mm-hmm. Those are energy centers and that is my effort to start training people to get embodied. And that's their homework assignment. When you're feeling something. And how many times have you been told this?
Oh, it's all in my head. No, I mean, we're floating heads of confidence, yes. But mm-hmm Our feelings tend to happen in our body. Our thoughts happen in our heads, right? So really when someone in session has a big emotion, will stop and I'll go, okay, now where are you feeling that in your body? And. Gordon, it's so foreign to so many people.
They can't even Oh, yeah. Fathom that they can feel things in their body.
Gordon Brewer: Right. I know. That's something I still struggle with. I mean, even in my own therapy. 'cause Yeah, yeah. I mean, just, just, you know, well you, you're feeling this feeling so where in your body or you're feeling that I thought, Hmm. Not, not really sure.
A lot of times. Yeah.
Julie Merriman: A absolutely. That is fair. Mm-hmm. Because we have not been trained that is mm-hmm. I mean it's, I think it said algebra. We should have worship where you're feeling in your body, you know? Yeah,
Gordon Brewer: right.
Julie Merriman: I would use that.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Julie Merriman: Not all the love to math teachers, but it, we have been trained from.
From childhood where our parents weren't comfortable with our emotions. So we were taught. Now I was I'm, I was born in 63. I know it was a different, it's a different thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. From how my grandchildren are being raised. But those of us that are baby boomers, we were not, daddy would tell me. You don't feel that you're fine.
I'll give you something to cry about.
Gordon Brewer: Right? Exactly. Yeah.
Julie Merriman: I, we were not trained to get into our body and go, okay, were you feeling that it's okay to have that emotion? Mm-hmm. So it's, it's very foreign to, to go in and really identify those emotions. But I tell you, once we get in touch with that, it's very empowering.
I'm, 'cause someone can say, well, I'm feeling sad. Oh. Or, or I, I can think of some clients that have some somatic things going on where their tummy might hurt and they're able to stop and go, now wait a minute. That's my abandonment issue kicking in in my tummy. So I mm-hmm. Let me see what I can do to take care of that for myself.
It's just, it's very powerful to get in tune with that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, like you said, it takes work to do that. It takes and to, to learn how to do that. It's a, it's a skill. It's really a skill set. I think
Julie Merriman: you're absolutely right. And we're building new neural pathways, right? Mm-hmm. And there's a new book out, I forget, I wanna give her, it's a lady doctor, but it's called 67 Days to Rewire Your Brain.
She's done research on this. Mm-hmm. Fascinating. We used to think 21 days or we would pull up just some. Mm-hmm. It's gonna take this long to change that habit, right? She actually has research that shows in 67 days the new neural pathway is built, and those old neural pathways she's done. Imaging on the brain go away.
Isn't that
Gordon Brewer: amazing? Interesting. Yeah, it really is.
Julie Merriman: So 67 days to learn how to feel in your body.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. Yeah. So as, as you think about burnout, what are the other places where we besides getting in touch with our body and our feelings, what are the other ways in which we maybe can help ourselves more with that?
Julie Merriman: Sure. Well, there's the, you know, there's. And these are very classical. Own your calendar, you know own your worth. I work a lot with my students on this. Being afraid to charge the amount they need to live. We've got to be able to do that. It, because it's an insult to our complete profession if we're not charging our worth.
Mm-hmm. And I know, that can be quite controversial. 'cause some folks, well I'm here to help. How can I charge? But at the end of the day, we gotta feed ourselves, right? We gotta have a living wage. Right? And owning your calendar. I work, whatever it might be. Pretend eight to five, and I don't answer the phone before five.
I don't answer the phone after five. Mm-hmm. I take my lunch, right? I don't eat at my desk, I go take a lunch. Go outside, get some vitamin D, get myself grounded. Because as you said, many of us are helpers. We wanna help. So we give up our lunch, we give up our mornings, we give up our evenings, and we end up resenting our job.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. We're not holding
Julie Merriman: our boundaries. So I think the essence of that Gordon is boundaries. I mean, that's right. Personal, professional, no is a complete sentence. Mm-hmm. Not being so often we feel obligated or we do this pretty little dance around a node.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Julie Merriman: People are not gonna like that.
Know any better if you are dead. Right.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. And it waters down. Well, it's a, yeah. It's, it's really a, a total, it's a mindset change. A mindset change. And I, you know, I was doing some consulting with someone the other day and they were, you know, the whole issue around not charging enough, you know, you know, they, you know, we, we've been fed this line, I think, I don't know if it comes from our, our training programs or whatever, but you know, that if.
You're not helping if you charge too much or you're not helping, if you're, if you charge at all or whatever, you know, it's crazy. You know, it's a, you know, and you know, I'm, I'm all for philanthropic work and charity and all of that sort of thing, and helping people in that way, but when it comes to your business, your practice and what you do, you have to charge because if you are not.
You're not making, like you said, not making a living wage, not paying what you're worth. You're not gonna be there to help.
Julie Merriman: No. Yeah. You get burned out or so angry about the whole
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Julie Merriman: Profession and, and we need to, I mean, sometimes I think people just kind of throw spaghetti at the wall and go, oh, charge that.
We need to know what our overhead is. We need to know what we need to be bringing. I mean, it needs to be a scientific.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right, right. That's set.
Julie Merriman: Not just I'll, well, everyone else is charging that, you know?
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Oh, so yeah. So th this I just thought of something that's, I think, kind of an interesting way of thinking or whatever.
You know, on one hand we're saying get in touch with your feelings. Yeah. And, and be aware of what you're feeling and what you're in your body and that sort of thing. But then there's this line, this boundary we need to create of. Okay. You need to know your numbers. You need to think about this and not make a decision based on what you feel.
And so you wanna say, say more about that.
Julie Merriman: Well, you know, our whole profession is a very interesting blend of science and art. That that's what makes us good therapists. We, we know our, our theories. Conceptualize through those theories, you know, if we back it up. But then there's this instinct, you know, that comes in mm-hmm.
And, and this presence and, and to, so that's the same. I mean, our profession is a very interesting blend of science and art, and that's what you have to do to take care of yourself. Right. As, as well. Uhhuh and I think. I mean when, because the science part of setting those fees, otherwise you cannot guarantee that you're making what you need to bring home.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we have no one but that lady or man in the mirror to blame for that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think you have to get right with yourself on that and move past the field. I mean, there's a time to feel. There's a time to be a science a business person.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julie Merriman: I don't,
Gordon Brewer: that's not
Julie Merriman: that very pretty.
Yeah. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Well, yeah. And I think it's being able to learn, you know, again, I, like you said, I think earlier I've learned a lot the hard way
Julie Merriman: Oh girl. And
Gordon Brewer: a lot of times, yeah. A lot of times if you make too many decisions based on, well, this feels right, or whatever, and there's not any data or no, as I like to say all the time, you gotta know your numbers.
You, you will, it will spiral outta control. But because I've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and so, yeah.
Julie Merriman: Yeah, I've got a couple of 'em. Sadly I bought those t-shirts.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And,
Julie Merriman: She said something long ago that triggered something, but it's floated by, it may come back, but we do our clients a disservice if we clients need boundaries.
We, we know this, they, they need boundaries. Mm-hmm. They need to know a session's gonna start and end on time. They need to know that, that we wouldn't negotiate with our medical doctor on a fee. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We don't need to be negotiating aiding that either. And if there's this philanthropic piece you wanna do, well then take on one client as a sliding scale.
But if your whole business is that you're not gonna be able to pay buy your kids Christmas or, or Right. Really be able to enjoy what you're doing. Right.
Gordon Brewer: Money. I
Julie Merriman: mean, sadly we have to have money to live.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right.
Julie Merriman: And another really important piece about burnout, it, it's your nervous system regulation, all the polyvagal theories, all mm-hmm.
All well theory. It's important that we keep our nervous system regulated. Right. 'cause when we don't, that's certainly gonna kick us into burnout too. I used to just think it was just, you know, we gotta have good boundaries and we need to I don't know, take a bubble bath or whatever. Mm-hmm. Which those are good, but we've really gotta be regulating our nervous system.
In order to show up and be the therapist we need to be for our clients. Right. And have a quality of life for ourselves.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And if you've got financial stress, that is one of the biggest stressors of, of anybody's life. And, and so, yeah. And so you talk about burnout, you'll be burned out and you will resent what you do.
Mm-hmm.
Julie Merriman: Crispy, fried in, in my book. I, I go deep into the money story because our money story follows us into life. And so often we have not taken the time to understand why we feel what we feel. And, you know, at start, we're enc coding, we're watching our parents or our mm-hmm. Caretakers. Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Julie Merriman: Yeah.
And it, it's really important to know how that money story is impacting right. Your career.
Gordon Brewer: Oh yeah.
Julie Merriman: And Lord, help us. If you're in that money crunch, that's a horrible place to be.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. So Julie, I know we need to, I've gotta be respectful of your time and just thinking about, I know we could, we could have this conversation all day long because I think it's just important, important stuff.
Tell folks a little more about your book and also how they can get in touch with you and. The different things that, the different ways in which you are out there in the world.
Julie Merriman: Sure. Thank you so much, Gordon. I have a book on Amazon right now. It's called In Pursuit of Soul Joy, A 12 week guide for Overcoming Burnout and Compassion Fatigue.
Mm-hmm. It's specifically for US helpers. Mm-hmm. And I, I'm on Instagram at, at Dr. Julie Merriman. And Facebook and YouTube, and I just got on TikTok because I wanted to see what all that was about.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay. Well, great. I love
Julie Merriman: LinkedIn, but it's all under Julie Merriman,
Gordon Brewer: right? Yeah. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show some.
I'm looking forward to watching some of your videos on YouTube and so, oh, I appreciate that. Yeah. So and, and for folks that don't know this, this podcast is also on YouTube, and so if you prefer to see the faces and that kind of thing, if you're, if you're just listening to it with, that's available now for folks.
So, but yeah. How fun.
Julie Merriman: That's great. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Well, Julie, again, thanks for being on the podcast and again, like I said, find her stuff in the show notes and show summary here. And hope to have another conversation here soon.
Julie Merriman: Yes, I'm so honored. Thank you very much.
Gordon Brewer: Thank you.