The Practice of Therapy

[00:00:00] Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so excited for you to get to meet Jen Fredette and Jen, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:10] Jenn Fredette: Thanks, Gordon. It's great to be here.
[00:00:12] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And our we kind of, she kind of found me or I found her through our mutual friend, Jane Carter. So I have to give a shout out to Jane because she's again, one of my favorite people.
And so, but Jen I'm glad we were talking ahead of time and I think folks are going to really love to hear Jen's story and the things that she's passionate about. particularly around copywriting, which sounds kind of weird for therapists. But I think once you hear from her, you'll see why. So Jen, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about your private practice journey and where you, how you've landed, where you've landed.
[00:00:53] Jenn Fredette: So one of the things we were talking a little bit about before you hit record Gordon was how I have an MDiv and started off actually Thinking that I was going to be a preacher although I like to drop the F bomb more, and that's generally not something that is approved, especially by good old southern congregations.
Right,
[00:01:13] Gordon Brewer: well all the good ones do, so I mean. It's true,
[00:01:16] Jenn Fredette: it's true. I, I like my fan fiction about Jesus is he liked to curse. I don't know if that's totally true or not. Yeah. But so as I was working as a minister, getting my MDiv, one of the things that I became really intrigued about and really concentrated a lot of my studies on was interpreting texts in new ways and being able to read not necessarily new meanings, but non traditional readings.
into the Bible, into other Christian texts that we often imbue with a lot of sacredness, which I love doing. I thought I was going to go on and get a PhD in biblical literature, was not excited about having to learn German to do that.
[00:01:55] Gordon Brewer: Right.
[00:01:56] Jenn Fredette: And I had a year in between before I was going to apply to PhD programs.
And in that year, I worked or I rather I served with AmeriCorps in an adult literacy agency, which I loved. It was really, really meaningful. And one of the things I discovered was, wow, this is so much more fun than having to translate things from the Greek or from the Hebrew. I'm really enjoying getting to help people translate.
Their own lives and tell their stories in new ways. And so I made a pivot and decided I wanted to get a master's in counseling. My partner got a job up in DC. So we moved up, we were in Winston Salem, Greensboro, North Carolina. We moved up to DC, just a little bit of a culture shock. And I just fell in love with counseling.
I fell in love with therapy. And so initially I thought, gosh, I want to continue to work with people who are underserved. I've worked at a community mental health, which was very fun. But over time I started to want to do deeper and deeper work. And there wasn't as much room for that with all of the case management and a lot of crisis management.
Right. And so I took the risk. I wanted to go out on my own. I started with a group practice, which was really lovely. Eventually though, I wanted to continue to expand and really to not have as many restrictions on my marketing voice, really and not having to say or do things that maybe my group wouldn't align with.
Or certainly when I was in an agency, you don't have to advertise that there's not enough people to serve. So that's part of how I got here as a psychotherapist. I practice. In COVID I practice out of my house, but I practice in the D. C. Baltimore metro area and I work with people who are really deep thinkers and often get trapped in how they think about life and don't always tap into the deep feelings that they have.
So a lot of the work I do is helping them uncover their heartbreak. Yeah,
[00:04:04] Gordon Brewer: right. I love that. I just, yeah. And one of the things that I was telling Jen before we, we started recording is I took a lot, a look at her website and we're going to have links here in the show summary and everything. And I would invite everybody to go over and look at it because her.
Her talent with copywriting is very evident just from the get go and I loved her website. It's going to be on my list of, of websites to point to when it comes to okay, here's a good therapy website. So, yeah, so great job on that. Thanks. Yeah, so Yeah, so what with your passion around copywriting and I love your story, by the way, because I think it's so typical for most of us in private practice, we kind of go through the jump through the hoops with in terms of getting licensed and doing all the stuff with our training and the probably the vast majority of us end up in the agency work and find out that it's very rewarding, but also very difficult.
So, but talk some more about copywriting and how that you feel like that is so important to people and being able to learn how to do it well with your website.
[00:05:21] Jenn Fredette: So one of the things that I have noticed, and I have two graduate degrees, I really like classes and learning, and I've done sort of the gamut, it feels like, of private practice building courses.
And one of the things that over time I really started to realize is, How important it is to find not just your niche in terms of who you want to serve, but your niche in terms of what marketing does and doesn't work for you. And there's 20 billion options when it comes to marketing your practice.
But one of the ones that I think in a lot of ways Shows up in all of them is how do we speak about who we are and who we want to serve, who we want to work with, which an online speak is copy. Copy is just written content that we've created, and it doesn't necessarily even have to be written. It can be having a conversation on a podcast, or it can be having a networking conversation.
How do you articulate who, who you're meant to serve, who you are called to work with? And so. Over time, I also really like to write and so trying to crack the code of like, how do you actually write copy that is not just captivating isn't just converting clients, but also is representative of who you are as a clinician became more and more important to me.
And I think not to shade any marketing advice, but sometimes marketing can feel kind of shallow and feel a little slimy. I think for people, we're not wanting to manipulate people. And a lot of marketing techniques sometimes don't integrate our clinical depth or clinical awareness, which is a real shame because therapists have all of this information about their ideal clients.
That a lot of marketing people have to do lots of research for, where we have somebody sitting and telling us their deepest, darkest secrets and paying us to hold them and help them work through it. So one of the things I feel passionate about is how can I help people translate their voice and the knowledge they already have and to copy it on their website, which isn't just going to help them build a practice.
But also I think helps clients start to realize like, Oh, I, I didn't know that was a problem. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize that that was a thing that I could get help with.
[00:07:43] Gordon Brewer: Right.
[00:07:44] Jenn Fredette: A lot of times when people are coming to therapy. It's because they're in pretty dire crisis, right? There's not catching it beforehand,
[00:07:52] Gordon Brewer: right?
Yeah. Yeah. What I, what I love about that is that but as you were, as you were saying that what I, what came to mind for me is just, I think a lot of times we, we are so in inundated with marketing of other different things and, and kind of the, the theme of most marketing is, is they're trying to convince us why, why we should do something.
Yeah, you know, that sort of thing. And, and I think you're exactly right. When it comes to, to, to therapy websites and to what we do, it's really more about, you know, which I think we're all comfortable with. It's just kind of a, a kinder, gentler, Way of reaching out to people of just being able to say i'm here to help you if you would like to help Yeah, and that's that's it, you know, and just really saying, you know This is how I understand your problem and this is how I can help you Should you choose to get the help and that that's a much better, you know, softer sale i'm using quote marks So yeah, you know when when it comes to to marketing You As people have heard me say, and a lot of people say, is the job of marketing in a private practice is really just helping the people that need you most be able to find you.
[00:09:15] Jenn Fredette: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not sure the kinds of clients that you most love to work with, Gordon. I like, sometimes they feel kind of tough. I really like just avoidant very intellectualized. I have people who like, yeah, okay, what are we going to talk about? I'm like, oh no, life's really good. And it takes peeling back the defenses.
[00:09:39] Gordon Brewer: And Fritz
[00:09:39] Jenn Fredette: Perls has been, I think I was the only one in my theories class. It was like, I like Fritz Perls. My favorite. He's not the nicest guy. All
[00:09:49] Gordon Brewer: right.
[00:09:50] Jenn Fredette: I think that's something I often actually see in therapist copy is that we are warm, we are nurturing, and we do want to make sure we're clear that we offer that really safe container for clients.
But clients have a lot of defenses already, especially if we're talking about private practice private pay. People sometimes need a little bit of a nudge of like, yeah, but that actually is a problem. Like I know it sort of works for you, but here's what you're actually missing.
[00:10:21] Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
[00:10:21] Jenn Fredette: And so like for a lot of my people, things look very good on the outside.
Like everybody who knows them, it's like, Whoa, you have your life together. Like you are killing it. But underneath they don't actually feel known or seen.
[00:10:36] Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And so
[00:10:38] Jenn Fredette: part of what makes copy compelling and captivating is when we can actually highlight, hey I see the thing that you're hiding. I know that things aren't as great as you wish that they would be.
And actually sometimes you even hide that from yourself because you're too scared to go there.
[00:10:54] Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, so as, as people think about Writing copy for their website. What would be some things that you would kind of tips you would give on that of just how to go about it and think about that and process that because I think a lot of times I think some people probably are more.
I know I enjoy writing when I make the time to do it. But I think for some people they just dread it and they they they probably hearken back to thinking Oh, i've got a term paper writer something like that. So yeah, but anyway, I Tell give me give us your thoughts on all of that.
[00:11:35] Jenn Fredette: I have so many thoughts.
So one of the things that I often see people doing And I have a lot of tender to think about I'm like the person again, pre COVID. If we're going out to eat, like I want to make sure everybody's invited. I don't want anybody to be left out. Like sure. Everybody has a seat at the table. Like I don't want.
Are
[00:11:55] Gordon Brewer: you an Enneagram too?
[00:11:58] Jenn Fredette: I switch every time I take Enneagram. Last time I took it, I think I was a two. For a while, I was a solid four.
[00:12:07] Gordon Brewer: Okay. But yeah,
[00:12:09] Jenn Fredette: who knows? Maybe. Yeah.
[00:12:10] Gordon Brewer: Well, that's it. That sounded like me as well. I mean, just because I'm, I'm a two hitting a gram. And so, yeah, it's always just, You know, the service, you know, making sure everybody's comfortable and happy and all that.
So anyway, I digress. So
[00:12:26] Jenn Fredette: we can talk about any, I get super obsessed when I did my clinical pastoral education. But so often, and I think you and I are not alone in that, Gordon, that I think a lot of therapists and I think it's. Part of their resistance to what people are getting is always like, you got to niche down, you got to niche down that we don't want to exclude anybody.
And that's a really hard way to write copy. I was a youth minister for a hot minute and the things I hated. most about being a youth minister were lock ins because I was always very concerned what all my kids were doing when I was asleep at the lock in and Sundays after church having to figure out where are we going to go eat
[00:13:10] Gordon Brewer: and
[00:13:11] Jenn Fredette: trying to manage 20 something people are we going to do Mexican or Italian are like what are we going to do that it becomes really hard to come to a consensus and say what you want to say or say what you need to say.
When you're trying to accommodate a lot of different people, which then often leads to a lot of blocks when you're trying to write either your therapy directory profile or your website, because you're trying to write to Jim as well as Karen and Bob, and you don't want to leave Jane out either. And it's hard to then actually still down, what do I actually want to say?
What do I actually have to say? And the other piece is I think sometimes we lose ourselves, we lose our own desire of what do you want your practice to be if you're so focused on accommodating others, you're maybe not getting your own needs met.
[00:14:02] Gordon Brewer: Right.
[00:14:03] Jenn Fredette: And so the first step and I think it's Actually, the hardest is to really get in touch with your own desire.
Who do I actually really want to sit with? Who would light me up if I could just have this person in my office and I get to go deep with them wherever they need to go? Who do I want? And when we know who we want, it starts to become easier to actually write copy to that person.
[00:14:28] Gordon Brewer: Right.
[00:14:30] Jenn Fredette: Does that make sense?
[00:14:30] Gordon Brewer: Yeah, it does. I mean, I think it's you know, I think I hear, you know, it's a question that comes up a lot and it's something that's, it's almost become cliche in the private practice circles is just the word niche or niche or however you want to say it. And, and I think one of the things that We, that has always helped them for me is if I think about the clients that I've had, which are the ones that I look forward to versus the ones I see on my schedule that I just dread seeing, you know, kind of thing.
And so thinking about, you know, well, how is it that I talk with that, that particular person, how is it that, you know, what are our conversations about? And what are the things that get me excited and get. My passion's up. And, and if we're doing those things, then it just becomes so much easier to do those things.
[00:15:27] Jenn Fredette: Yeah. And so that's, I think the first problem is people try to write to everybody or they end up writing to people that they don't actually want to see, but they think, well, these are the people I'm supposed to serve because I'm trained in this or I have experience doing that. The next thing I often see is that I mean, and these are all defenses about how we show up and marketing at its core is a relationship, the relationship between me, the business, the therapist, and actually in some ways, the product and the future client.
And so when I have a clear awareness of who that person is, I sometimes, especially if it's like a person I really want to work with, I start to be like, Oh, I gotta like really make sure they know I'm worth it. And like, gosh, I am expensive and like, what am I going to do? And I remember my husband's a trained attorney.
He works in emergency management now. When he was first getting his law degree, we would hang out, not just with lawyers, but like fancy DC lawyers who had a backyard in DC, like hot, which if you're from this area, like that is like, Whoa, you are like killing it. And we went to a party and they're all of these very like prestigious people.
And I had just finished my degree. And I went around telling everyone, well, I'm a psychotherapist, which freaks people out anyways. Yeah. It's just sort of like, I'm a psychotherapist. I'm a psychotherapist. I can read my mind. Yes. Somebody actually asked me, I was like, do I have to talk about my mother with you?
I was like, we can, if you want. And my husband's just like, Jen, what are you doing? Like stop telling people that. But I was so insecure and like wanting to like, Show up and be like I'm important and often in our copy that shows up by Let me tell you all the certifications I have and let me tell you all the training I have and let me tell you why I'm so important and how i'm gonna solve all of your problems and clients don't care.
Like Clients, one of my clients, we were talking about I was suggesting EMDR would be a really good adjunctive thing. And he was very sweet. He's like, is it, it's the music thing. You think I should go to more music concerts? I was like, no, no, no, not EMDR. Here's what it means.
[00:17:50] Gordon Brewer: The clients
[00:17:51] Jenn Fredette: don't know what these acronyms mean.
What they want to know is that you're going to see their pain and help them heal from it.
[00:17:58] Gordon Brewer: And
[00:17:59] Jenn Fredette: so It then becomes, can you be honest and real about who you are beyond the credentials? Of course, you still need your credentials and training is wonderful. And if you can't translate what that means for clients, they're just going to skim over you.
[00:18:18] Gordon Brewer: Oh, yeah, I love that. And and, you know, a bullet point bullet pointed what you just said, because I think it's a great quote. Clients, clients don't, I'm paraphrasing, but clients don't care about your degrees or your certifications or anything, but they do want to know that you can see their pain. And you can help them with that.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:41] Jenn Fredette: And so that, that actually brings us to the third piece is then people struggle with can I really say that? Can I, can I really when I've worked with people on their copy, it's like, Jen, that feels really punchy. Oh, that feels really aggressive. I can't, I really say that. And all they're saying is, I know that you just, you know, Smoked three bowls of marijuana back to back, which is a true story.
Like you've just done that. You're doing that to numb out from the pain of all of these other things that therapists often pull their punches and in doing so they end up colluding with clients defenses.
[00:19:20] Gordon Brewer: And
[00:19:22] Jenn Fredette: it doesn't allow clients to then get the help that they need because they either get so mired in shame and think, if somebody really knew this about me, I, they would tell me that I have to go to rehab for the next six months.
And like, I'm
[00:19:37] Gordon Brewer: going to
[00:19:37] Jenn Fredette: have to do AA or NA for the rest of my life, or that I'm really the screwed up one. Like my family's not crazy. I'm the crazy one.
[00:19:45] Gordon Brewer: And until
[00:19:45] Jenn Fredette: we can name like, Hey, I know that you're doing this or you're thinking that, I don't know. Clients won't feel seen. And so we still tend to pull our punches because we don't want to wound the other.
But in doing so, we're sort of just putting band aids on people's bullet holes.
[00:20:02] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, as you're saying that I'm kind of reminded of Brene Brown to some degree, just about the importance of, Of being vulnerable and that's when people begin to heal is when they can truly be vulnerable and it'd be safe for them to be vulnerable and I think that's kind of I think what you're saying is is just How do we how do we convey that in our copy?
That you know, okay. This is a safe place And we know that you've got Your, your shit behind, behind the scenes. And, and yeah, guess what we all do. And so it's okay for you to talk about that. And it's not going to open up the, the floodgates when you do that, we're going to create a safe place for you to do that.
So, yeah, yeah. So,
[00:20:51] Jenn Fredette: so, and I'm realizing, like, I've just named a bunch of problems. I'm actually in some ways modeling for you all, how I write copy that we always start. with naming the problem.
[00:21:01] Gordon Brewer: Yes.
[00:21:01] Jenn Fredette: And then where we go, and this is a very basic copywriting formula. So anybody can go and use it. And actually all the biggies use it.
Apple uses it, like I shared with Gordon just before I came on that I'm pregnant with my first child, which is so exciting. It is. But now I'm getting targeted on like Facebook and Instagram with like all of these baby things that you can buy. And the really good ads that catch my eye use the same formula.
And it's problem. And then we begin to agitate it. We start to actually talk about like, why is that actually a problem? And part of the way I was just agitating the problem is you're colluding with clients defenses. No therapist I know wants to collude with clients defenses. Like that is not what we want to do.
Then you discredit, like, what have you been trying that hasn't worked? You might be writing really bland copy in an effort to include everybody, you might be posturing a lot with all of your credentials, or you might just be like really stuck like, ah, oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to show up vulnerable, so my client feels a little more comfortable being vulnerable.
I don't know if I want to do that. All of those things are hard to do, especially therapists really like to do things alone, which is always sort of mystifying to me. Like, this is a hard thing to do alone, to write copy that really reflects who you are and who you want your ideal person to be. That doing it alone doesn't work.
And so the solution is having formulas, having frameworks, but also having people who can partner with you as you write your copy, whether it's a mastermind, a business group who can give you feedback, whether it's a coach or consultant or some sort of course that can walk you through it. But just like our clients deserve and need to make an investment in their mental health and having a partner who can safely contain that for them.
So I think therapists need coaches and consultants so they don't have to go, like, figure out how to get an MBA just to be a
[00:23:06] Gordon Brewer: private practice. Right, right. Yeah, I can. Yeah. Again, this. Couldn't agree more because I know that for me and my own journey, when I have actually reached out to others to really kind of get feedback and to really, you know, okay, I need, I need another perspective here.
You know, I need somebody on the outside looking in. And tell me what, because to me, it might sound perfect, you know, just kind of, Oh, this makes sense to me, but to other people that might not. Right. Right. So, yeah. So are there any other copywriting steps that you would want to share?
[00:23:47] Jenn Fredette: Yeah. So one of the things that I often suggest to people and I am pretty type a overachieving, my supervisor actually said to me the other day, he's like, Jen, you are a workhorse.
It's like, I know Bradley, I need to work on it. And so often I hear that with other. Therapists that I work with are just colleagues that the first big, shiny thing people often want to do is completely rewrite their website, which I think is actually a terrible idea.
[00:24:19] Gordon Brewer: A
[00:24:20] Jenn Fredette: lot of work. And it's a lot of work to do really well and not just writing the copy, but having somebody to design it in a way that feels true to you, but it's also going to speak to your ideal client.
And so what I often suggest to people when you're just getting started writing copy. starting with your therapy directory profile is a really good place for you to get to experiment with what you're going to do. It's also going to show you like what copy is actually converting with clients because, and it's not a huge investment in terms of time or money.
And when you know, what's working and you're actually getting clients that you're like, Oh, I would love like 10 more of you. I don't have room for 10 more of you, but like, this is you're my jam. Like this is who I work with.
[00:25:05] Gordon Brewer: Right.
[00:25:06] Jenn Fredette: That's when you start writing copy for your website. And you can do a longer form service page.
You can do essentially what is a sales page and online marketing, which really walks people through not only the story of what they're going through, but how you can help them. And you mentioned my website. My. I think I call it services on my website. Like that's a really good example that I'm using a sales page format essentially.
And I don't mean this in a manipulative way, but to pre sell people before they ever get on the phone with me, it's pretty rare and I'm full now, but it's pretty rare for me to get on the phone with somebody who isn't already primed that they really want to work with me specifically, even when they're not always the best fit.
And so that's sometimes the maneuvering, like. I really hear you and I really want you to trust me that this person is going to be a better fit for you.
[00:26:01] Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. But that doesn't
[00:26:02] Jenn Fredette: happen super often. Yeah. It's almost always ideal clients. It's, I frequently hear people say, Oh my gosh, you were in my head.
Like, I don't know how you knew all of those things. You just knew me
[00:26:16] Gordon Brewer: and so
[00:26:16] Jenn Fredette: it's a way to build rapport before they're ever now on my digital sofa. And I don't end up having to do a lot of back and forth about money stuff, which I don't love having to do that. People who end up coming to me, it's clear how much I charge.
It's clear what my boundaries and restrictions are and people are ready to dive in. Right. Several people who have started with me after this new website went live, not only are ready to dive in, but have wanted to do twice a week, like want to do deeper and deeper work. Wow. Wow. Fabulous.
[00:26:50] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That is great. So, well, Jan, I, I gotta be respectful of your time podcast. So if people want to find out more about you and maybe even work with you around some of these things Because I know you're you're doing some of that. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you?
[00:27:13] Jenn Fredette: So i'm working on yet another website.
So i'll have a new website probably before this podcast goes live It's going to be a thinkersguide. com and certainly if they want some inspiration, they can check out my private practice website, therapyforthinkers. com. And for all of your listeners, I love a good freebie. And part of what we talked about was how do you start to know what's in you?
That's preventing the ability for you to write copy. That is going to represent who you really are and who you really want to work with. So they can go to a thinker's guide. com slash diagnosis. And I have a little bit of a play on the DSM of five symptoms that they can diagnose in their copywriting and some basic interventions that they can get started on without having to invest any money, just to see what works for them.
[00:28:04] Gordon Brewer: That's very generous. Thanks, Jen. And we'll have links to all of that in the show notes and the show summary and people can access it. And, and so yeah, so I would invite folks to, to go check out her podcast. I know I'm, I'm looking forward to listening to some episodes of Thinker's Guide To. Is that correct?
[00:28:23] Jenn Fredette: Yeah, the first season was The 2020. Oh,
[00:28:27] Gordon Brewer: wow. All right. That's great. So we'll have links to that as well. Well, well, Jen, I'm sure I will be having you again on the podcast and good luck with the little one on the way. Thank you. Yes, yes, that's exciting. So yeah, so be sure to check her out. And and thanks again, Jen, for joining me.