The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast and, and you're in for a treat. I've just in the few minutes I've gotten to talk with Heather Hendrie. She is going to be a lot of fun to have a conversation with, but welcome, Heather. Glad you're here.
Heather Hendrie: Thanks. Delighted to be here.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. So as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?
Heather Hendrie: Absolutely. I, I, I have a private practice nature based in Whistler, British Columbia on the west coast of Canada. But like many of us, I came to counseling and the therapeutic practice sort of later in life. I worked for a long time doing environmental behavior change work in municipal government and international tour guiding for years through different parts of the world.
And then through a process and a journey of my own came to a place where I really wanted to support and help other people through nature based approaches to therapy.
Gordon Brewer: Awesome. Awesome. And you know I think a lot of folks are probably not as familiar with nature, nature based therapy. Although it sounds really appealing to me, especially where I live here in kind of the Appalachian mountains and a lot of hiking trails and just a lot of great kind of nature things.
Say more about what that is and. What got you into it and your passion around it?
Heather Hendrie: Yeah, absolutely. And it's, there's a lot of excitement and new information coming out about how nature heals. And we, of course, all know about this because we are part of nature and nature based therapeutic work has been happening for eons under different names.
You know, of course People have gone to wilderness for answers for solace for millions, millions, well, since human humanity existed on earth, we are nature. And yet in more recent years, there's been a recognition that the systems under which we're living. create a habitat that's often causing a lot of problems for us.
Sometimes these get pathologized, but we're recognizing that more and more that return to connection with nature that we are all from can be incredibly supportive and healing in so many ways. So I would say there was a return to the idea of wilderness therapy when many folks were sick in the early 1900s with tuberculosis in Manhattan hospitals where they were overflowing and they found out That the folks who were put placed in Central Park in tents, interestingly, seem to heal faster.
And so there was a reminder and a resurgence of the potential power of nature to help and to heal. And that spurred a lot of different things. One thing that came out of that later on was the outward bound approach to nature based growth, leadership, resilience building. And, and in more recent years, more and more, Therapists are, I'd like to say, taking to the trails, especially since COVID and offering various new approaches.
I'm saying, I'm going to say new in quotation marks, but different approaches to therapeutic work that take it out of the office and back into the community in various ways.
Gordon Brewer: No, right, right. And I know even in my own practice, I know I've had several clients where we've just, where, where, where my office is located, we've got a great area to walk in.
And so we'll just get out and walk and do therapy, you know, just walk and talk. And I think that's, to me, that is probably does as much to help people's moods as anything I know of.
Heather Hendrie: Absolutely. That's fantastic. I didn't know that you did that. And one thing I imagine you notice Gordon is for some people moving is a lot more comfortable.
It's, it's easier to share some of these deeper intimacies or vulnerable moments when we're moving. The other thing that happens there generally automatically is we're side by side, as opposed to facing one another. And historically as a predator species with eyes on the front of our faces, we're For many people, looking face to face can feel quite threatening.
So that's it. There are a lot of reasons that being outdoors or being side by side can be so helpful to the, in the therapeutic process. That's very exciting. That's something that you've just come to. And I'm curious, kind of when and who to do that with.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, you know, part of it is I think for For the most part, it's always been long term clients.
And so it's you know, people that are really comfortable with me and know kind of a little my story and know that I like to be outdoors and, you know, active in that kind of thing. And so they'll just say, Hey, can we walk today instead of sitting in here? And I'll say, absolutely. It'd be usually it's on a day when the weather is just really.
Great. And, you know, you just, we're all itching to get outside anyway. So, but yeah, but yeah, you know, something kind of a little side note, not to go too far down on a tangent, but you might find this interesting, Heather, and I know maybe some of the listeners, but my daughter, who is she's a kindergarten teacher, but she, she teaches at what is called the Wahatchee Forest School.
And so she's outdoors with those kids. Rain or shine. And so all of her teaching is in environment, a lot of environmental stuff, but it's, you know, that just the benefit of those kids being outside and being in nature and playing in the creeks and the mud puddles and, and all this stuff. And so she absolutely loves it.
And it's just It just reminded me of that. And just the benefit of, of not only therapy in that way, but learning in that way.
Heather Hendrie: That's so lovely. And how I would have loved to be a kindergartner, her and her class outdoors, splashing in the mud puddle. Nature's always been such a, an incredible space for me to connect and just simply feel like myself and feel well.
And I think that's really what's inspired me to bring this work forward to others and to mentor new clinicians in that space. And, and I really found myself needing to go to nature in that. I, for 30 years, went with an undiagnosed mental health condition, well, menstrual health condition, I will say.
It's called premenstrual dysphoric disorder. It we probably, many of us see it, will see it in practice, but not necessarily recognize it. It's often misdiagnosed as bipolar. bipolar disorder or other, other sorts of cyclical mood disorders like cyclothymia. So for me, I, I didn't know what was going on.
I knew something was wrong and I just knew that I always felt better in nature. So for years I remember thinking, Oh, I just want to walk with people in the woods. And then I remember a couple of years ago, Oh, wow, this is, I'm not, this is now what I'm doing. I'm, I'm out here walking in the woods, supporting folks in coming back into connection with who they are at the core.
And. I couldn't feel more honored to get to do this.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. You want to say, say more about the kind of for people that might not be as familiar with premenstrual dysphoric disorder, and I'm sure there's probably an acronym for it, but, you
Heather Hendrie: got it. P
Gordon Brewer: M V D.
Heather Hendrie: The reason I want, I, I bring in my story and want to share that with our listeners, largely other clinicians, of course, is because it's gone unrecognized for a very long time, but one in 20 menstruating folks will have a condition, an atypical response to the change in hormones.
Generally, their hormone levels are normal, but there's a sensitivity to when that changes in the luteal phase, generally after ovulation, before menstruation. And it presents with a lot of psychological symptoms, but it's physiological in nature. And that's why I'm very passionate about sharing it here because it, it can be very dangerous, and I will, I will warn folks listening, it can have suicidal ideation and at least Well, they're thinking now more than 30 percent of the folks that have this condition.
And for most of the folks that do have it, because we haven't talked openly about stigmatized subjects in our society, such as menstruation, it, it goes unnoticed for a long time for most folks. In my case, the diagnostic process, despite having a doctor as a father, becoming a clinician myself was a 30 year journey.
On average, I think they're saying these days it's taking up to around 10 years. for folks, which is, is really too long. And that's why I always want to make sure I mention it anytime I speak. Yeah. And just so that we can be on the alert. And for example, one thing that I watch for a lot with my clients is I meet with my clients on a very regular basis, generally every couple of weeks.
And because of that, I can see real ups and downs. And so that's something that I'm always paying attention to. And. If we come back to nature based work, the, the menstruating body in particular, is this cycling body originally cycling with the moon. And so paying attention to the cycles and the seasonalities in the world around us and, and within our clients, but getting to notice patterns, we're in a really unique privileged position to help draw some attention to something that may have been otherwise missed.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. So what are maybe some questions that clinicians can maybe be asking. The to kind of maybe rule out or figure out, you know, is this something that maybe we need to look in more into more and more and more depth. Yeah.
Heather Hendrie: Yeah. Great question. And I mean, since I've when I began as a clinician, my intake process and questions have changed a lot.
They've really expanded now something I make sure to include. In my intake process are all the stigmatized questions. I'll right away. I'll ask people about their relationship to sex, sexuality and gender. I'll ask about their relationship to their menstrual cycle. If they, if they live in a menstruating body, I'll ask about the things right away.
I'll ask about finances. I'll ask about the things quite early on that. Where there might be some discomfort or sensitivity or taboo feeling such that I might pick up something right away or later down the road, it creates an opening where we can have these conversations.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah, I think that's so important.
And I think probably as a result of that, it helps establish some pretty good rapport with people pretty quickly.
Heather Hendrie: And it's really interesting, depending on the client, of course, some people will open up right away about various things going on. Others, not at all. But I've really noticed in screening in this way, in the intake, I'll often get a really good idea right away and start to pick up various things and know what to watch for, as well as like you say, create that report, open the conversation.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. And so with it, with your work, one of the things I know we were chatting about before we started recording is this, this very niche specific work has just caused your, your practice to explode, but also, Taking you in some other places and writing a book and that sort of thing. So tell, tell that story and just how all of that came together.
Heather Hendrie: Yeah, thanks. I've got a big smile on my face. I've actually got the books here right now. They're called, it's an anthology series called Awfully Hilarious. It began with this one, Awfully Hilarious Stories We Never Tell. And this little award, it won the Canadian Book Club Award last year for best anthology.
Delighted me no end because this happened by accident. What happened, Gordon? I'll just share with all of us here. A few years ago, I went on a terrible date and it was just sort of shocking what happened on this online date. It was during the early COVID times and I called up a dear friend of mine in tears and she, she was crying too and said, you would not believe the date I just got home from.
We could write a book and fast forward. We did. And the intent was to let other folks out there know if they were online dating, that they're not alone in these challenging Vulnerable experiences, but what was interesting is we put out a call to our friends for online date stories. We also though got some really interesting stories about menstruation bodily functions Taboo moments embarrassing things where they hadn't previously necessarily shared these things And what everyone said who shared on these pages were, it was embarrassing or potentially hard for them to write, but also healing for them to write, and their hope was that it would help somebody else.
And so the title being awfully hilarious, they're funny in general. A lot of them are quick, but with, with some humor in there to help ease some of the pain. And the awfully hilarious title is that most of these moments were quite awful when they happened. And then with time and friendship and community, and that validating support of others, become sometimes quite funny or helpful to others.
And the reason we had just planned to publish, staple these pages together and place them in little free libraries. But another friend had recently self published a book, and I asked him to help me, how would you do that? Because I, I became aware that these stories that we generally share only in the therapeutic container, if, if they were more accessible to more people, might, might be really supportive and might be really supportive to those folks who either can't access therapy or don't have an existing rapport with the therapist.
So it, and they're not stories from clients, of course, these are, these, we put out a call to writers who wanted to share their stories. But the idea being as an advocacy arm of our work, if we were to talk more openly about some of those stigmatized subjects, there, there'd be a lot of support on those pages.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. Well, I'm looking forward to reading it now because even though I'm not I'm definitely not a menstruating person. But
Heather Hendrie: here's to putting the men into menstruation, Gordon. There
Gordon Brewer: we go. But But also, you know, just on a personal note being I think most people that have been listing the podcast know that I'm, I'm widowed and I'm starting to enter back into the dating world.
And so I'm sure some of these these stories could be helpful, not only for, for me, In the clinical sense and working with couples and that sort of thing, but also, you know, personally and all of that sort of thing. So I'm excited about that.
Heather Hendrie: Thanks so much. And thanks for sharing that. And like you're saying, it's, it can be very vulnerable to reenter this space of exposing parts of yourself in various ways to, to new people.
And it really, and that is what inspires me. We were laughing, but saying dating is not just not something we should be doing unaccompanied, but we don't want to go back to Victorian era with chaperones, but to return to a community of friends to be able to debrief and be held by people who really know and love us.
When we're experiencing something new.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Absolutely. That's yeah, I would say, again, not to get too far off on a tangent, but just, I think going through anything difficult in life or challenging in life, the one, the one thing that I think everybody needs to have is community. I'm just having, Either, you know, even if it's just one other person that they can share their internal world in a way where they know that it's going to be safe to share and it's not going to create a lot of havoc or drama or that, that sort of thing is just so important.
Heather Hendrie: Oh, I'm with you. That's exactly it. And if we were to come back to nature based therapeutic work, something that I really love and want to bring in there is that for many folks, Perhaps community with other humans, attachment with other humans has been really difficult for various reasons or inaccessible for various reasons.
And yet in nature, a place we inherently all belong and are part of the, the idea that we can find community and connection and attachment there as well. Perhaps it's sitting by a favorite tree that we return to day after day after day. And the, that we remember that the the non human, the more than human world is also a part of our community.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. I, it, again, it's just I relate to that so much just because part of my morning ritual or routine is, is I'm fortunate to have a green belt close to my, Close to my house. And so every morning I'm out on the Greenbelt walking a few miles every day. And it's it's such a beautiful setting and always run into a lot of deer and turkeys and just all kinds of wildlife.
And then just the nature. I discovered a tree this morning that I didn't hadn't noticed before. It was a little bush. It was called a bladder tree or something that had these. neat little flower things on it. And so, yeah, so fortunately I had my, as I like to call it, my app machine, my phone with me, and I googled it and found out what it was.
But yeah, and it's just, I mean, but I think, I think to your, to your point, Heather, is, is that that just those little things could be so transformal, forming for people, I think, and being able to just have a new perspective. on the world, which also changes our perspective on herself.
Heather Hendrie: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
And then interestingly, so many things that we have already known in an embodied way are beginning to be researched. For example, the idea that if we tune into bird song, it's really supportive to our nervous system, really supportive to the vagal nerve and can help remind us if the birds are singing.
That there that we are potentially safe that there likely isn't an overhead threat. For example, if you've ever been out walking and listen to the birds singing, and it suddenly gets silent, that's often a really good cue to look up and notice there's a hawk or an eagle or a predator in the air above.
And in terms of like what you were saying about walking with your clients, most of my sessions end up being walk and talk nature based sessions with movement incorporated. It also supports that bilateral stimulation of the brain. So there's more and more emerging research that qualifies and quantifies a lot of these things we've already known a long time.
There's an organization in Canada, I don't know if you've got similar at the moment in the U S called parks are parks are X. So it's P A R X. And it's about, it's, it supports various medical practitioners in providing prescription nature, which is so funny. That brings up a whole other conversation about, a modification of the commons, which is, we could go way off on that.
But that idea that there is an idea to support nature as a really valid healing modality.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And that's one of the things That when I, when I, particularly if I get clients that are really struggling with depression, I really, I really encourage them. I said, I want you to get as much daylight as you can.
I mean, just get out in the sun, get out in the daylight. And, you know, well, I'm sure for, particularly there where you're located in Canada for much farther north in the winter months, the seasonal effective stuff is, is a real thing. I mean, it's just, and so. But and being in nature and I think being in as much daylight as possible is a huge.
Has a huge healing property to it, I think.
Heather Hendrie: Oh, absolutely. And something I should speak to also is that for me as a therapist, as clinician, it's incredibly supportive to work in these areas. When I'm doing nature based work, I like to say I'm not necessarily the therapist. I'm simply there as a facilitator supporting the therapeutic work being done by the trees and the birds and the other beings who are out there along with us.
Or, and there might be occasionally very yeah, I'm not alone working out there. If that makes sense. It's feels like you're very much part of a team.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. And I like that. The way you frame that as, as far as interrupting thought patterns. And I think that's a, that's a great point. I was listening to a podcast this morning. It was on one on attachments and relationships and one of the things that they brought out is the ability to interrupt the kind of obsessive thoughts you might have, particularly for someone that might have an anxious attachment style of being able to.
to focus on other things rather than that, that particular person. And I, you know, it's just some, again, it's just kind of a validating thing to say, okay, what we're telling people and what we're doing is, is It is sound, you know,
Heather Hendrie: absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So you want to say a little more Heather about how you've grown your practice and a little more about what your practice looks like now and where it came from.
Heather Hendrie: Of course. And I think I should preface this by saying, I'm the accidental entrepreneur. So much of, I had dreamed for years of just walking with people in the woods, but so much of what has happened has just been around following the ball of what, what comes next. So after my counseling internship, interestingly, so I did my degree in wilderness therapy at Naropa university.
I knew this was, An area of interest to me, but I was doing my counseling internship at a place that didn't have enough office space for me. So I got permission from them to do my original internship sessions outdoors and on trail, which was great to work with a supervisor who was open to that. And then when I was graduating, I wanted to work with somebody who was doing nature based work and I couldn't find anybody in my area.
Fast forward, I launched my private practice doing nature based walk and talk work in this area. We call it the Sea to Sky Corridor that links Vancouver up to Pemberton along the west coast of British Columbia. And I've been doing this work. It's been really exciting. And then we told that story of the date and then the book series that came from that.
Since the launch of this book, And I must tell any listeners out there who are writing curious and aspiring to writing a book, do it. It's amazing. This first one became a bestseller overnight. We launched it on Valentine's, Galentine's, Palentine's day, whatever we want to call it. A couple of years ago, it, it became a bestseller and sold a number of copies, but I want to tell you, it did not make much money.
It didn't, it still hasn't made back what we've invested into the design of it. And yet, an interesting thing that seems to have happened is that my practice has been full since then, in fact, so much so that I, I haven't been able to keep up, so bringing in an associate to be doing nature based walk and talk work alongside me.
But what's really interesting, I think what may have happened accidentally is that this, these books tell a little bit more about me and our work, and, Start to create that rapport and connection, perhaps before you have ever even met somebody. And the other thing is, whether I ever see somebody as a client or not, my real hope, particularly with this second book, our audacious goal is to get it into the hands of all people with periods, and all people who love them, which of course will encompass all of us, because without periods, there is no human life on earth.
And The real reason for that is that because this has been one of the most stigmatized shamed things, at least in North American society it's not true across all cultures, but certainly in our dominant culture today. And the hope is that if we're able to talk more freely about things we haven't historically spoken about.
We can find a lot more support for one another. And yeah, this is one that, what's really interesting, there's a wave right now happening where more and more people are talking about menstruation, menopause, perimenopause, but stigmatized subjects in general. And I'm delighted to see that. I mean, it's possible that we therapists might hopefully one day work ourselves out of a job.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I that I think that's hopefully we, we will. It's just but it's yeah, and I think it's just giving people permission to talk about their, like as I like to refer to it, their internal world. Mm-Hmm. . And then to be able to hear from others. Oh, they're experiencing much the same thing that I am.
And I think that's the power. Of what you're doing is, is that it, it, yeah, it gives people permission to, to express all those things.
Heather Hendrie: Of course. And that's just the hope, right? Is that we not feel alone out there with, with whatever it is we're carrying. And we as therapists can support as many people as we can.
And there's a limit to that. So what are, that really excited me that these anthologies have. Accidentally turned. I mean there was a lot of intent there. Every writer was hoping that this would land on somebody's bedside table and help them feel less alone.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Well, it's yeah, you're, you're an inspiration to me, Heather, and that I've been, been encouraged by a lot of people to do, not necessarily an anthology, but a memoir, just of all that I've gone through in my life.
And so Yeah, so, yeah, so yeah, so it's encouraging to know that it can make a huge difference in people's lives. So, yeah. Oh,
Heather Hendrie: Gordon, I, I can't wait to read it. And one thing I'll say also is that all of the writers have said that despite this being very hard, doing it in community, working with other writers and knowing it was going to hopefully support somebody has been a really, really helpful transformative process.
process for them. So that's my hope for you also. And I, I can't wait to get a copy of your book. That's okay.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. I've said it too many times out loud, so I've got to do it now. So well, Heather, I've got to be respectful of your time. And this has just been a delight to talk to you. Tell folks how they can reach you and where they can find the book and that sort of thing.
Heather Hendrie: I'm at heatherhendrie.Com awfully hilarious. com and true nature, wilderness. And we have accounts under all those same names on Instagram. And of course, the books, I'd recommend requesting it in your public library so that everyone can access it. And failing that, it's in the U. S., it's on bookshop.
org. And I'm saying this for all aspiring writers out there. and bookstore owners because bookshop. org donates to local bookstores and also supports independent writers. And failing that if you're in parts of the world where you can't access that, they're on Amazon.
Gordon Brewer: Well, Heather, I hope I can get you back again on the podcast. This has been a lot of fun and great to chat with you.