The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really excited for you all to hear from Steph Corporal and Christy Penison, and they are two dear friends that I've known for a few years now, and we've done, you know, just, we cross paths a lot with different conferences and things that we've done, but Steph and Christy, welcome.
Glad you're here.
Steph Korpal: Just so happy to be with another favorite person of ours.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Thanks for
Steph Korpal: having
Christy Pennison: us Gordon.
Gordon Brewer: Well, this is going to be fun. And I, I think you're going to learn a lot from Steph and Christy, but Steph and Christy, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed and also how you all kind of formed your collab and your relationship.
Steph Korpal: Yeah. So I have a practice in St. Louis, Missouri. We're up to nine therapists and two admins, but I was solo for about two years. It's kind of slogging along trying to get that caseload full. And then was able to do so as many practices did during the pandemic. And now just love talking all things group practice.
Life group practice ownership, and they've had the good fortune of meeting so many wonderful people along the way, including my now best friend, Christy Penison.
Christy Pennison: Yeah, well, and Gordon to tell you a little bit about how we all got started. So I'm from central Louisiana and I'm a multi location practice owner that has a group that's insurance based and, you know, we really love serving our community.
But in 2019, I had this crazy idea to let's move back home. And I didn't know what I didn't know. I just knew that I Felt like I wanted to start a practice and like Steph started out as a solo and then the vision has expanded, expanded. But along that journey, when we, me and Steph were actually in a mastermind consulting group, learning how to do all the things, you know, Gordon, when you first start and you're like, I don't even know what I don't know, but I just need people to tell me what I need to do because what I'm doing is not working and I just need to figure this out.
And so we were in community together. And one weekend or one day we were in a zoom call kind of like, you know, what we're doing right now and Steph messaged me on the side in the zoom chat. Now, I really had never talked to Steph like we're doing right now. We just talked in these groups and she was like, Hey, I'm thinking about going to Nashville for a weekend to just get away and work on some things because we were both about to add.
Another person into our practice. Right. We were going from solo to group. Would you be interested in joining me? Okay. This is the extent of the conversation. And I was like, Hmm. I told her, I said, let me, let me check my calendar. Cause I'm a seven on the Enneagram by the way. Steph is one. What are you Gordon?
Gordon Brewer: I'm a two, two with a three. Okay, you're a
Christy Pennison: two. You're three. Okay, okay.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So. It's funny, I just, I just taught a course at my church on the Enneagram. So that's yeah, that's funny that you bring that up. So yeah. So anyway. Yeah. Go ahead.
Christy Pennison: But no, but you know, the sevens, right? So the seven in me was like, Ooh, trip, spontaneous, possibly fun.
I get to go hang out with somebody. And Steph was like, I don't know if she was fully expecting me to respond as quickly as I did. Steph, did you? Yeah.
Steph Korpal: I have a hard time remembering, but it really doesn't fit with my personality that I asked a stranger from the internet that I had known for maybe 10 hours in a group setting to come meet me and stay in the same Airbnb with me for a weekend.
Christy Pennison: Yeah, so of course, you know, Gordon, I checked my calendar and I realized I could make it happen. So I responded back. Let's do it. I think I booked my flights like right away. You did. But this was so crazy because Steph picked me up. And this Mustang rental car at the airport and it was like a convertible, wasn't it?
Like, yeah. And this is how little we didn't know each other. This how little I didn't even have her phone number. I was texting her on messenger to let her know I was here. Okay. And so we pull up to this Airbnb that's like kind of on the outskirts of town, right? I mean, it was a little bit of a drop.
Okay. We were in the burbs. Okay. And I can remember me and Steph looking at each other and we sat in our perspective doorways because we probably wanted to provide some level of distance, you know, stranger danger, but we've committed to this Airbnb and, and I remember us just looking at each other and was like, so tell me about yourself and like download a life story.
And like, but from there, a friendship emerged and what we found throughout The past, maybe it's been 4 years ago staff. I think the past 4 years is how to do this practice owner journey and community and how that really does make the journey a little bit better. Doesn't mean it's easier, but it better a little bit better, a
Steph Korpal: bit better.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, yeah, it's a yeah, and that's a that's been one of the things that I've just learned and it's been reinforced and then you all kind of know some of my story. If it weren't for community, I could have not made through all the things I've gone through over the last several years. But yeah, and I think, you know, I think you know, another thing, and I know we were kind of talking about this before we started just about the importance of reflecting on things and, you know, another word that I like to like to use a lot is discern things. And so I know you guys have done a lot of work around that. And so you want to say more about that?
Steph Korpal: Yeah. Christy, you kind of really came up with this new, wonderful. What am I alliteration? What am I going for?
Christy Pennison: What's, what's the things whenever you say, like you try to think of words that it's the five R's acronym iteration. I don't know what the name of it is, but you know, something to help you remember about how reflection has helped us, but go ahead, Steph.
Steph Korpal: Yeah. So we, I mean, we just came off of a weekend working in community in Nashville again with other group practice owners. And so Chrissy and I were meeting this week. And just reflecting on what goes so well in these, in these settings, and she was able to zoom out and really identify that, of course, the community is a big part of that, but.
Also, it's what you do in the community and taking the time for that reflection has been what has allowed us and our other colleagues turned friends to be able to experience not only success in business ownership, but also I think a lot of joy because that doesn't necessarily come naturally. And entrepreneurial life, right?
I don't think many people who are entrepreneurs would use that as one of their main descriptors of the life they've chosen fulfillment, welcoming, welcome challenge the hardest, but best thing they've ever done. But I don't think joy and happiness usually are there.
Gordon Brewer: And at least those
Steph Korpal: first, maybe five to 10 years, but it can be fun and it can be joyful if you create the space to reflect on what you've done and also the reflect on the things that your colleagues have accomplished and the beautiful, joyful, Things they're putting out into the world and the healing that they are inspiring people to achieve and So she came up with this really cool five hours Opportunity as a way for people to get that reflection in their own life, but do the reflection in a robust and dynamic
Gordon Brewer: Right, right.
You want to mention what those are? The five R's?
Steph Korpal: So
Christy Pennison: glad you asked, Gordon. But no, these are just things we reflect in our own reflection, said, what are the things that could really help somebody be intentional about this? Cause we all know that, I don't know about you, Gordon, but I have a lot of good intentions that don't always get actualized.
Okay. So I'm like, I really want to do that, but. It's hard to sometimes prioritize making those things happen in our lives, and I especially think when you are on the path of practice ownership, whether you're a solo practitioner, whether you're just getting started, or whether you've moved into group, wherever you are along the continuum in your journey I think that reflection for me has really been pivotal, pivotal.
Not pivotal that word. Okay. And doing that. And so the five hours is really one of them is rhythm. And that is how can you carve out a specific time reoccurring on your calendar to ensure that you are giving yourself space and time to reflect. And I don't know about you, Gordon, but I can show up all day long for other people showing up for myself sometimes.
Questionable. Okay. So, you know, and as practice owners, people, we, we're not going to leave a client hanging, right? If we schedule that appointment with that client, we're going to be there, right? We're not going to just like, let them show up to the office and be like, coming in 30 minutes late. No, we're going to be to that appointment because we want to hold the space for them.
And that's, that's what we're there to do. And so I think that one of those things to be able to have that space for reflection is to create some kind of reoccurring Meeting with yourself or with accountability, buddy, in your calendar, whether it be weekly, monthly, quarterly, it really doesn't matter, but something that you can show up consistently to say, I'm going to give myself some space and time to really reflect on what's working.
What's not working from a spiritual perspective, is this aligning with what I'm feeling called to do in this season and. Or is it aligning with my values, you know, where is life? Cause like you even said, I mean, life has unexpected seasons. It has a lot of challenges and at different points in time, we need different things to make it through.
And so I think that rhythm kind of creates that ability to do that, but also I call it ritual and that's like, where's the space that I need to do this in, or how do I need to do it? And me and Steph were talking about the differences like that. We kind of sometimes do this. I'm a big journaler.
Steph Korpal: She
Christy Pennison: not so much.
Okay.
Steph Korpal: I've tried so hard.
Christy Pennison: Yeah. But she said the few things that's helped her is like, maybe, you know, whether it be actually reading or doing a puzzle. So whatever works for you, what is that? Either that space, that environment, that action. That ritual that allows you to do this. And then I think the third thing, and then I'll let Steph take the last two, but is relationship.
The third R is relationship. So, you know, how can I get myself around people who maybe get it? How can I have different perspectives weigh in on stuff that I'm reflecting on right now? How can I even have a sounding board if I want to verbally process something going on in my business or in my life, then that.
That can help me kind of reprioritize based off of knowing me. And that relationship piece takes time, but sometimes it just starts with getting that relationship started. So that's, those are three of the five hours, but yeah, I'll let Steph take the other two. We round
Steph Korpal: it out with realignment or just realigning.
Because you know, things change. In our life, the business changes, your life changes the demands on your time and energy change, or even within the business, right? Challenges come up and things just kind of move. And so whether you're trying to discern something through that, that's a new challenge, or it's just, you're, you're leveling up.
And so. Just things, things are going on. It's so good to make sure that the decisions you are making or the way you're steering the ship does align with your values your priorities, because it can get really hazy sometimes. Right? Right. Gosh, how do I handle this? Well, if you were, if you were taking that time and space to reflect, you have a chance to revisit.
Your values and your priorities. And so often that is how you find the clarity for that ship. And then finally, the 5th 1 is resolve. And that resolve is about following through on the clarity. You got right. So it's so easy to constantly be busy or to take this. You know, new idea and let it just kind of sit in the corner because of urgent things that come up, other people asking for you.
But if you make sure that you have follow through and momentum from the space, the clarity, the ideas, you will be able to make it through that challenge. You will be able to level up your business. And a lot of times that relationship comes back into, cause then your people are keeping you accountable.
To that invitation. So that's the other cool thing about the five hours is that they all work in tandem and can end up being a positive snowball effect. on the other. And so no single variable gets lost. They're all so interwoven that they create a really powerful way to visualize or construct how you are going to reflect for that clarity and strategy in your vision, in your, in your work.
Oh,
Gordon Brewer: yeah, I love, I love have you all have have conceptualized all of that, you know, as, as you were mentioning all of those, I was just trying to think, okay, am I doing that or where, where are the places that I'm doing that? Well, and the places that I'm not doing it. Well, and I think, I think at least for me, the implementation part, the resolve is, is always there.
The tricky part, at least for me, but I think yeah, and I think, you know, kind of bringing it back around to thinking about community. I think that's where you really have to, the community is absolutely necessary, not only for the support, but also the accountability and following through on things. You all want to say more about that.
Yeah, just
Christy Pennison: yeah, well, and you know, I'm thinking about what you just said Gordon, I just have a quick question to ask before I go to that that point But how long how because you've been on this journey for a while, right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm hmm. How many years
Christy Pennison: now? I've
Gordon Brewer: been well, I've been in private practice since about 2006 so and then started the practice of therapy in 2016 so So
Christy Pennison: 10 years practice of therapy, almost, almost, right.
And almost 20 years of private practice. I have a question for you before I go to the community piece. How many times have you had to realign kind of what you're focusing on and what your priorities are in that 20 year journey?
Gordon Brewer: At least weekly.
Yeah, yeah. It's a, yeah, it's a constant process. I mean, and, and I think I think it's a myth for people to think that you're going to arrive at a, at a kind of a finished thing. And so I think just being, being willing to flex and to move and to change. I mean, I've just, you know, I was with my podcast network, we're going to do a live live session in a few weeks and we're going to talk about how mental health has changed.
I mean, the mental health you know, wellness space and all of that, how much it has changed. And so we've had to adjust to that along the way. And particularly as you all know, in a group practice, every time you bring on somebody new. There's some change that occurs that you have to adjust to. So, yeah, pretty much weekly.
Well,
Christy Pennison: and I wanted to ask that question because, you know, you've actually been on this journey a lot longer than we have, right? And I know that even in the past, I guess it's been almost, almost six years for me that I've been on this journey. There has been so many re Iterations in different seasons and different times where I've had to adjust my expectation of what should be prioritized in that season and and to your question, what has helped me and I know Steph and I'm curious to know your response to this as well is community has been the piece that I think to myself, if I had not gotten into some type of community, Early on, which I was like month three in my business where I was climbing the wall.
Number one, I didn't know tons. Okay. I just was like, I'm going to go hang a shingle and it's going to be fine. And then, you know, nobody was calling. Okay. And this was, I was the sole income provider with a child at home trying to figure this out. So I got to community out of desperation, also out of loneliness because I had never worked by myself before.
And by month three, I love people and I love the people I serve, but like not having a community was really hard for me. And so what we found is that with all these emotions that you do have, whether it's, I'm trying to figure this out and I don't know what I'm doing, or I'm overwhelmed by all the things I have to do, or, you know, especially when you get.
To group practice ownership, like I'm worrying about my employees, you know, they don't realize how much I'm probably going to bed at night worrying about them and making sure that this thing keeps going so that they can continue to do this great work. But what I found is that community really allowed me the space to not feel alone and to also be able to share, whether it be resources.
Like that's why I love when I'm asking you this question, Gordon, I mean, there's a lot of things you've learned in 20 years that I probably still have not learned. Right. And so if I'm in community with you, I sometimes can give Gordon a call and be like, listen, Gordon, this thing just happened.
Gordon Brewer: If
Christy Pennison: you
Gordon Brewer: have
Christy Pennison: somebody you can call up who gets it.
And you know, that's something that I think is really valuable, but that's it. Very high level. How has community helped you?
Gordon Brewer: Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a good good question. But I, I tell people all the time every time I have taking part in either a retreat or a conference or you know, I have a membership community as well.
And I know you guys have been parts of different ones along the way. But every time I've taken part in that, I've, I've experienced exponential growth of some sort. of some form or fashion. And, and part of it is, is like you were saying, Christy, is just the fact that there are so many blind spots that we can get.
And when you have these other people that are part of your community or part of your world, they can see things from an outside perspective that you're not able to see. And, and also too, just, you know, recognizing like you're, again, like you were saying is, is that, okay, There are other people have been through same things.
And so they've, they've kind of navigated through all of that. And so they can kind of say, yeah, you know, say, well, this is, this is how I did it. Or you definitely don't want to do this or, or something along those, those lines. Yeah. .
Steph Korpal: Yeah. Well, I think there's, there's such normalization of not knowing everything when you're in a group, because it can feel sometimes like you should know it all or you know, you make a mistake and you feel like you should have known better.
And so, and that can just like, put you under emotional rubble and Oh yeah. There's no way to drive the business forward if that's just mm-hmm . The constant weight that you're carrying. And so what I've always found from community is just that shared, oh my gosh. What do I do and how do I do it really just helps you keep expectations of yourself in line but then also I think it's great to celebrate wins and accomplishments and Especially because this work is so unique especially the client part and you know, you you can't go home and always share some of those things or People don't always get it to the degree another therapist will.
And so that's what I always think is so special too about being in a group with other group practice owners. It's, it's therapists who are employing other therapists also doing therapy. And that's a very unique interwoven jumble of relationships.
Gordon Brewer: Right. And so
Steph Korpal: being in a community with people that you don't have to explain that jumble at all.
They're just like real recognize real ICU has been just a way to really, like I said, kind of at the top, get joy out of this.
Gordon Brewer: Oh yeah. Also
Steph Korpal: unburden a lot of the pain.
Gordon Brewer: Right. You mentioned wins. And I think a lot of times too, my experience has been that a lot of times you might have wins and not recognize it as a win and so for having other people to point those out to you is, is just invaluable.
I mean, it's just kind of like, you know, and, you know, it's, it's just like going, you know, in many ways, it's just like going to therapy or being in therapy is, you know, our job as therapists is to really kind of point out the things to people that they may not recognize in themselves. And so I think, you know,
Christy Pennison: well, I think that's how community can really tie back in as we're making the loop of the five hours and the reflection piece.
What I've found is community sometimes forces me to reflect, right? Or, and I know me and Steph, we've talked about this a lot because Steph would be like, Oh, she would be sharing something. And I'd be like, that's incredible. Right. And,
Gordon Brewer: and,
Christy Pennison: you know, that we should celebrate that. But she. Might not see that as a huge success.
Cause she may be thinking about the next thing she wants to have make happen. Right. And you know, we can just, I think in, in vice versa, she's done the same for me to be like, wow, that's amazing. And I'm like, but is it though, we have a hard time giving ourselves credit for sometimes things that have happened along the journey, but, but having those people that can be like.
No, I know where you started at Gordon, you should really give yourself a pat on the back, right? Then you you'll seen heard, you know, you feel like you're valued in that space. And I think that we often, especially as therapists provide that valued space to so many people in our work, right? We sit across the couch.
Or whatever it is that you're set up is in your office and we provide that space to feel seen and feel heard. And for some of our clients that we worked with, it can be years along the journey. And I think what makes that relationship very special is because we've seen people through their highs, their lows, their challenges, and we've seen the growth.
And I think in community, you get the almost the same gift in a lot of ways that you give to so many people, because people can walk that journey with you and also hold that space for you. Maybe not in the same way that the therapeutic relationship holds that space, but just as valuable, I think, for people.
Trying to do this business thing because business, you know, it can be fun, but it is
Gordon Brewer: hard. If it was
Christy Pennison: easy, everybody would do it. Okay.
Gordon Brewer: And
Christy Pennison: you know, that's the reality. And so having people to help you through that, Ooh, I'm telling you game changer. And you
Steph Korpal: know, what word we haven't used when we've talked about community yet is the amount of times that being in community in this space, those people turn into friends.
Like best friends, you know, so, and then people talk all the time about how adulthood friendship is difficult and finding new friends is hard. But I am amazed anytime I reflect how I can shake a tree and find new friends, five new friends in this space, right? You go to a conference and you meet somebody and you're like, where have you been my whole life?
Or you show up in a mastermind group virtually. And then you guys do meet in person for the first time, two years later, and you feel so close to them. You forgot, you haven't even met them in person yet,
Gordon Brewer: right? And that's
Steph Korpal: really special too, to not only have colleagues that feel so trustworthy and valuable to you, but then they actually expand to being friends in your personal.
Life too. And we all know that the business ownership is so personal. So for those colleagues to turn friends is, I think almost a joy unlike many others.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. As you all, as you all know, our, our mutual friends and we, we all, it's interesting how we Form little, this might not be the best word, but kind of little pods of people in this space.
And so I meet, I meet with Uriah and Whitney and Jessica every, every week. And, and they have become some of my closest, dearest friends to your point there, Steph. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Steph Korpal: so cool. We have a group that we were in started back in 2021 that still meets every other week on Thursdays. I don't know why I decided to say on Thursdays like that's super cool.
Gordon Brewer: Well, that's
Steph Korpal: where we made as well. That's the rhythm piece.
Christy Pennison: That's that R, that
Steph Korpal: rhythm of it. Right, right. And it's just special because, you know, sometimes people show up in there and they're just like, I think I'm not being completely sane in my decision making here. Because this is going on in my life.
Can you help me or like Christy said making people identify a win because we're not always good at it. And when those people become your friends, life just Becomes more fun.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Steph Korpal: Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Well, you too. I, we could spend all day and hopefully we will be able to do that soon. I've got to be respectful of your time.
Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and also things that you've got coming up and going.
Steph Korpal: Yeah. Chrissy, you want to talk about your awesome R's download?
Christy Pennison: Well, we did say, you know, we're gonna talk about these hours, but you need some space for reflection to actually do this. And so one of the things that we would encourage you, if you're like, yes, I need reflection, but I don't know where to start.
You can go over to the practice collab. com forward slash, Hey, dash friend. And there's a, there's a five hours worksheet that you can just download for free. It can give you some prompts to engage in how to set up this, a reflection process in your own life for your practice or to do it in community. But I also let Steph kind of talk a little bit about some things, exciting things we have coming our way.
Steph Korpal: Yeah, we have a couple offerings because, you know, the group practice owner space really is where our heart is and doing what we can in our way to bolster those people, you know, doing this work of leading therapists, being a therapist, all of that. So we do about once a year, sometimes twice a year, these working weekends, which are similar to how Christie and I met, but getting together and brainstorming or working on the nuts and bolts and just having that space in a dedicated base with other people.
And then we also have what we call a collaborship, which is kind of like a mastermind, but it's very work oriented, you know, so emotional processing and let's give you the time and space to work on your own to do list because we all know that. As the leader of an organization, it's very hard for your own to do list to get any time and attention.
So that's a virtual option that we have for people. And then we also have designed a conference summit. That's not quite a conference summit and what we do there is. Have a speaker and then take an hour to work on what the speaker presented and you get broken up into small groups. So you can going back to what we're talking about implement.
Right? So that's a huge part of moving your business forward, your dreams forward. And so that was, a heavy lift for us last year was our first time doing it, but we loved it, had so much fun. And we're doing that again this year in St. Louis, September 17th through 19th and have some fun topics. Our agenda is getting rounded out.
And that's just a fun space too, because one of the things that people will see in our offerings is we constantly try to balance being in community, but the time and space for implementation. That's kind of where Christie and I have found our magic and our mojo. So that's what we try to create for colleagues in this space.
Gordon Brewer: Awesome. Awesome. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary so people can find this easily. So, well, Christie and Stephanie, I'm so glad we connected and we'll see you all here soon. I hope.