The Practice of Therapy

Dr. Lani Chin
Okay. Hi, my name is Dr. Lonnie chin and I'm happy to be with Gordon on the practice of therapy podcast. Today we'll be talking about C hub, a new app that is release now.

Gordon Brewer
Well, hello, everyone and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so glad to have with me today, Dr. Lonnie Chan. And I got to connect with Wani through a mutual friend Joe Sanok. Now has given Joe a lot of shout outs here lately. But anyway, Lani, so glad to have you on the podcast. Thanks, Gordon. Happy to be here. Yes. And I'm really excited for folks to hear from Lani and this new application that she's in the process of developing and launching, and she's going to talk about that, but why he is a start with everyone. Why don't you tell folks a little bit about your journey as a psychologist and how you've landed where you've landed, and what you're up to now? Sure.

Dr. Lani Chin
So I've been a psychologist since 2012. Before that, I grew up in San Francisco. And I always enjoyed observing people in Golden Gate Park, I was really lucky to grow up in around that neighborhood. And so as a people observer, I learned very early on that, I think that's my thing. And so I also was really lucky in that I studied psychology during my undergrad, and was able to stay focused on that. So I didn't have any real, maybe changes related to my occupation, I stayed with psychology focused on it and was able to follow that all the way through. So I started my practice in 2012. Before that, I worked in a psychiatric hospital, I worked with kids in a group home setting. And kind of along the way, I wasn't really sure if I was going to be in the field of psychology. Or if I don't know, maybe I thought that I was really interested in human behavior, I'm sorry, animal behavior. And so I've been very curious about the melding between the two, what the similarities are and what and kind of the differences as well. But there are definitely a lot more similarities than differences. And so I've had a brief stint in working as a receptionist at a veterinary hospital. And that kind of turned into like a triage nurse kind of a situation. And so then I was kind of doing both careers at the same time. But I knew it really wasn't about the medical aspects of taking care of animals, it was really about the animal behavior part. And so after I got licensed, and I had been in my practice for a little while, I decided I wanted to volunteer for the Monterey Bay Aquarium. And I've been working with sea otters. And interestingly, there are a lot of similarities between psychology animal behavior and working with otters. Mostly that you really, otters are very adaptive to boundary setting. And so if you are able to set boundaries, they respond. And so working with them weekly, I also bring some of that into my practice. And so it's just been a melding of a lot of different life experiences, but at the core, very curious about human behavior and wanting to observe human behavior, and just being really into that.

Gordon Brewer
Oh, wow, that's, that is so cool. I just thought, you know, one of the one of the programs that my wife and I watch every now and then is the aquarium, I think it's on the animal planet or something like that. And I just remember, some of the things going on behind the scenes, were they training the otters and teaching them how to really mainly for so they can give them medical care and that sort of that. So that's, that's that that is so cool. Like, that's, I don't think I've ever met anybody this connector honors like that. So that's really cool. That's so motivated. And so that really helps. Yeah, so that is like humans. Let's go. That's so cool. So in your practice, what sort of specialties do you have?

Dr. Lani Chin
So I work with people that identify as being different. So whether they are cultural minorities, or people in the LGBTQ community, those are mostly the people that I work with. I work with individuals and couples, and really anyone that identifies as being different, so whether they're part of either of those groups, or they have just mental health diagnosis, but people mostly that feel like they're on the outside.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Well, that's such a need for that. And that's, you know, that's a I think, you know, just with all the focus on mental health this past year with COVID, and all of that, that's just, you know, I'm just thrilled to find other people that are passionate about those kinds of things.

Dr. Lani Chin
Yeah, so and just the level of isolation. In general, I think it's the pandemic has been incredibly difficult. So what I've found is, people that are ready already feel like they're kind of isolated, because they feel like they're different. On top of the isolation from the pandemic, it's been just kind of a double whammy for a lot of my clients.

Gordon Brewer
Right. Right. You know, that's great. That's great. So I know one of the things that we wanted to talk about, is this venture you've taken on or this project you've taken on of creating a new, new app. And so we want you to tell folks about that. And, you know, I was when when can I read read up on what you've been working on in the sea hub? One of the things that I will always reminded of is when it comes time for me to renew my license and avida collect all of my CE certificates. And we've kind of found a solution to that.

Dr. Lani Chin
Yeah, yeah, you certainly aren't alone. The beginning of C hub. So I will tell you my story. Regarding just the beginnings of the app, back in 2018, I had bought a house in LA with my partner, and we had been in LA for maybe 15 years. And at that time, we were meeting for coffee, we were super excited about having the house. So we just decided to meet for coffee one day, we were just hanging out. And I said, Okay, I have to go, I'm going to go home. And when I got up to the house, I noticed that the door was kind of open. And I thought that was really weird. And so I opened the door fully. And since we had just gotten there. I mean, there were boxes everywhere already. But this was definitely a house that had been like ransacked. And so they went through all of our stuff, and of course, admits that they took my computer. And they took my computer that had all my continuing education certificates on there was really hard of all the things that they did in the house. So they took my grandma's jewelry, the jewelry that she shared with me. They took my tweezers, which was just bizarre. I don't know why you would take someone's tweezers. But the funniest part was I had a maybe 10 year old Dell computer that was just out it was very easy to take. But it was massive, it was very, very heavy, because things have definitely shrunk in as technology has advanced. And so it seemed like they looked at that computer probably lifted it and said they're gonna take that thing. Yeah, they took my nice computer and had all the certificates. And I said, Oh, my gosh, I have no idea. I like to diversify my learning. And so I take courses that are offered through lots of different companies on all sorts of different topics. And so I said, I have no idea where I took them. I don't know, when I took them. And so I can't even backtrack, and try to email those companies and ask them for reprints. So fast forward, I relocated from LA up to Monterey, which is in Northern California. And that's how I'm able to work with the otters. And I was walking my dog one day and I thought, Wow, that was crazy. They took my computer, they took all that stuff. But what if those certificates were like saved in an app or in the cloud or my life would have been a lot easier if that had happened. And so I thought, well, what if there was an app? And that just became the beginning of thinking about what it would look like to have an app and also wanting a project amidst the pandemic. I mean, we're all pretty, just hunkering down and I cried a lot. And so I thought, I have a lot of extra hours. Why not try something else?

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Oh, that's, that's so cool. So how does the How does the app work? How is it set up?

Dr. Lani Chin
Yeah. So people just log in. And the first screen asks you questions about the certificates that you've earned. So like the title, and the number of credits that have been earned, and whether or not it was a live course. Because in some states like in California, it's like College just needs to do a certain number of live units. And so you can indicate that on the app, and then save a copy of the certificate as a PDF within the app, you enter that, and then you enter in your license information. So what your profession is a psychologist, marriage and family therapist, licensed clinical social worker, or licensed professional counselor, and the state that you're in, the number of units you need to complete, and whatever sort of specifics you need to complete. And what I really like about that part in entering the specifics that you want to complete, you can actually keep kind of a mental goal for yourself, like, let's say you want to pursue EMDR training, or you want to have X number of diversity credits that you've earned, you can kind of set your own personal goals within the app, which might go beyond what the state requires. So I really like that feature. And so the app then matches what you've entered against what the requirements are. And then it puts that information into a pie chart. So it graphs out how many certificates you've done, and then it breaks it down by category according to what subject area the credit was in. And it stores the certificates for you. So it's all through PDF. And then if anything happens, where you need an additional copy of the certificate, you can get on there and email the PDF to yourself. Awesome.

Gordon Brewer
Awesome that that's I love the way that's organized. And yeah, I think one of the things that I'm guilty of doing is is procrastinating about getting my CPE credits, and then end up trying to scramble at the end of the year to get it all pulled together. But I think maybe having an app might remind me to kind of look at that earlier on, rather than kind of pushing up to the backburner. Yeah, it's an uncomfortable way to live. Yes,

Dr. Lani Chin
it's a scramble. Something else what I was kind of talking about the idea of the app with colleagues, one of my colleagues had shared a story with me where he had, he had all his certificates organized, and he submitted them to the board. And then the board kicked them back. And they said, your short one. And then it turned out he had miscounted. And so the app will also help you keep track, because sometimes there are certificates that give you like half of a credit. So 3.5 versus four or three. And I think people kind of get confused with the point five, because we're not all fans of math. So yes, it's hard to keep up with all that. Right.

Gordon Brewer
Well, that's great. So is it is the app going to be available on both? both Apple and Android platforms?

Dr. Lani Chin
Yeah, so now it's just on Apple. And then we are in the works of getting it put on to Android to allow

Gordon Brewer
more access. Okay, okay. And so I'm assuming two people can just go to the App Store on their iPhone and find it. Yeah. See, see hub? See hub? Yeah, that's great. That's great. So just to dig in a little deeper, did you learn coding and all of that, or did you count source, outsource all of that,

Dr. Lani Chin
he definitely outsourced, I outsourced and then said, I want it to look like this. And then I showed them a very crude drawing that I had made. He just kind of thankfully looked at it and knew exactly what I was going for. So what I did was I first started with a wireframing of the app. And so I said, I want this screen. And then I want the screen in this screen. And I want the functionality to do these things. And I've just been really fortunate that they could translate what I drew and actually made a pretty nice representation of what I had imagined. So that was pretty much just it went from I think I used PowerPoint. I made a PowerPoint presentation and drew shapes. And I said, I think this is what I want here and here and here. And then they translated that into the application.

Gordon Brewer
Right? how did how did you find the people that would put it together?

Dr. Lani Chin
I interviewed a ton of people, because I wanted people to have at least some knowledge of what mental health workers do, what psychologists do and to at least know what mental health is so very broad, where therapists like we're not psychics. We don't tell people what to do. We can't see the future, just that people knew what mental health employee or mental health workers did in general. That was very My broad criteria, right,

Gordon Brewer
right. So did you use something like Upwork, or something like that divided people?

Dr. Lani Chin
Yeah, up work. And I asked different colleagues if they had ever done anything like this. And I wanted to know if someone knew someone who knew someone. And so what also helped in that process was people were very generous with explaining to me, kind of like what things to look out for. So even if they didn't take on the project, or they didn't think it was right for them, they were very generous with their time and explaining what I should look for, or things that might be red flags. So it was was nice also to talk it out. Because then people could also point out potential pitfalls, or errors or things that maybe wouldn't work in the long run, that I would never know, devoting so much time into mental health, I would never know what coding would work or not work.

Gordon Brewer
Right, right. Yeah. But and for folks that might not be familiar with like, Upwork. That's just simply a service that you can you can Google it. upwork.com? I think it is, and it's a, it's a wonderful way to connect with freelancers, and people across the, across the globe that do specific projects for people. I've used them before with some projects that I've done, and had great success with it. And so I love that. So yeah, the other thing, too, that I think is worth maybe pointing out just from the maybe get, I guess getting your thoughts on this, Lonnie, is the the value of diversifying your income and what you do, you're gonna say something about that?

Dr. Lani Chin
Sure. So when I started my practice, I knew that I didn't want to, I guess, have a very traditional 40 Hour Workweek. And so I knew that my sweet spot in terms of number of clients would be maybe 20 to 25. And I could do really good work and be very present for my clients. And I knew that being a private practice would also be a pretty isolating experience. And so previous it, I had also had some anxiety around public speaking. And so I really wanted to push myself. And I took up teaching, and I started teaching part time. And so if I couldn't get enough clients, or let's say, some people had dropped out, I knew I could rely on teaching. And so I didn't want to have all my eggs in one basket. And I, I also like, just being able to do a variety of things during my work week. And so I definitely do, I wouldn't be the type of therapist to just have 40 clients a week, and spending my time doing something like that. I didn't think doing an online course was really part of my personality, even though I do teach, I didn't know if I want to do an online course it didn't really seem to match or resonate with who I am. And so when I started to think about the app, yeah, diversify, my income was definitely a big part of that. And really thinking about things that just don't exist. And things where I thought, wow, that would have been really great. And I could see the utility of it. And when I talked to my peers, they were really excited about the thought of something that would take care of their continuing education stuff for them, as well. So getting a lot of positive feedback. I knew I was onto something, man, it's always a good thing to diversify, diversify income, because you just don't know what might happen. Right? And sometimes, you get really overwhelmed being strictly in private practice and seeing people day after day. And amidst the pandemic, we don't leave our homes. And so it's been it's been challenging for me to just see clients in my home every day, and to not maybe interact with people one another way in a different context. Right, right.

Gordon Brewer
And I know one of the things I think we were talking about before we started recording is just recognizing skill sets that you maybe are unaware of having. Do you want to say some more about that?

Dr. Lani Chin
Sure. Yeah, I am. I really enjoy challenging myself. I really enjoy being in situations where I think what the heck am I going to do like the first day I worked into the aquarium, I walked into the aquarium, and I'm looking at this otter and I work with the wild otters and so the otters that wash up onto shore, because they're either injured or they've been abandoned by their mom, or sometimes they just, they just get separated from that that's called a raft a group of otters and so these are the very vulnerable otters that we take in. And the point is always to get them back up to a level of health where they can return back to the ocean. And so they're wild. So we don't, we don't treat them like puppies. So we have to keep that level of distance. And so the most important thing is don't get fit. And so you have to be really careful. Because some of the orders that come in that are really, really little, we actually take care of them in terms of grooming, and bottle feeding, but they're still wild. And we also can't kind of like gaze at them lovingly, and start that attachment process. So we have to really treat ourselves. It always reminds me of those wire monkey studies where you kind of have to be a little cold. And that's hard. And so using that skill set of knowing what's for me what's best for the animal, and keeping myself in a position where I don't get to bonded, I don't allow them to get to bonded, I have to really be conscientious of my boundaries and my attachment. And that was something that I, I didn't know was going to be so relevant and working with wild animals, the boundary setting and just trying to be really conscientious of that, which actually reminds me of my previous work in working with kids that were part of the foster care system. In the residential group home setting, I had to be very conscientious about my boundaries, and encouraging them to also have really good boundaries, because most of the clients didn't really understand boundaries. So when we worked with them, we had to model what good boundaries would look like. So there's some of that skill that I never thought I would use again, because I, from that experience, I knew I didn't want to work with kids. And so I thought I would only work with adults, but right. I also never imagined working with otter, so life kind of surprises you with things, and you just go with it.

Gordon Brewer
Yeah, yeah, it's the other thing is you as you were speaking about all of that, I had also worked in foster care back many, many years ago, when I was working for a nonprofit agency. And, you know, one of one of the things that I remember learning in that experience is that there's so much that we do know that we kind of take for granted. And it's because it's kind of like, Okay, I know this stuff, but I'm not really sure how I know it, but it does apply. So I mean, like, you know, like basic parenting. I mean, it was just, you know, I knew about parenting just by virtue of my life experience. But I was remember working with, I was also doing intensive in home therapy with at risk youth and going into those homes and finding out that, you know, these parents really kind of lacked some basic parenting skills that a lot of people take for granted. So I mean, what what I guess my point with all of this is that just going back to the diversifying income and skill sets, and all of that is that I think it's good to kind of do a deep dive, and not take for granted that other people know the same stuff. And so you got a gift in a way that you can share that and teach people these, these skills and these things, so and you're fortunate enough to teach it to otters.

Dr. Lani Chin
And it's also you know, what I think was really cool with doing the app, it was the process of letting go, like really trusting that the programmers were going to do what needed to be what needed to be done, and that they would do it in a timeframe that would make sense. And it's been a challenge for me to just trust that things are gonna work out in the end. And similarly, with the different endeavors that I think on, I have to just not try to control every aspect of it. When I I trust that it'll work out or even if it doesn't look, the way that I thought it was going to look. It's probably what was meant to happen. And, like buying a house in LA, moving in and then leaving and just trusting Well, this is maybe an indication that I am ready for another chapter in my life. Right. Leaving la was probably a pretty good decision for me. Yeah,

Gordon Brewer
yeah. Let Yeah, that's, that's so true. Just letting go and, and being able to trust folks was stuff and I know that that's a that's a life lesson that I'm learning currently. I have not to get too far off on a tangent but recently my wife had to get my wife into a rehabil Rotation center for some of the disabilities that she has in the struggles that she's having with, you know, long story short, she's a breast cancer survivor, and just a lot of health issues and stuff. And my tendency is to want to kind of orchestrate and control everything that happens in that, in that meal, you and I can't. And so it's a process of letting go. And I think to where you're in terms of our business, you know, outsourcing things require some letting go, they're not going to do it exactly like we do it, or would want to do it for ourselves. But like you said, is to be able to trust that, okay, this is going to be done. And it's going to be okay. And it's going to work out well. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So that mean to get so philosophical here, but this is great. I love this, Lani. So I want to be respectful of your time. And I'm so glad we've got to have these meaningful conversations, but tell folks more about how they can get in touch with you and where they can find you and all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Lani Chin
Sure. So the app is on Facebook and Instagram, meaning it has a Facebook and Instagram page. So you can certainly find us on those two avenues. And the app is available in the App Store. And it is a treat to download so everyone can kind of get on there and experimented and try it out. After that after the trial is over, it's gonna be $5 a month, or if you want to do a year subscription, it's $49, or a two year subscription is $69. And all your listeners will get a discount of 25% when they put in the promo code Gordon?

Gordon Brewer
also awesome. It will hell I'll have all of this in the show notes in the show summary and that also links to everything for folks. Well, Alani Is there anything else that you any parting thoughts that you have or wisdom you'd like to share?

Dr. Lani Chin
Um, I just want to say continuing education can be fun. And I'm hoping that the app will make it more interesting for people to engage with their continuing education. And there are lots of other features that are coming along the along the pipeline, so stay tuned. Awesome,

Gordon Brewer
awesome. Well, Dr. Lonnie Chen, thank you so much for being on this episode. And I'm sure we'll be having conversations in the future. Thank you, Gordon.