The Practice of Therapy

Gordon: Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really happy for you to get to know today, Malka Shaw. Welcome, Malka.
Malka Shaw: Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure. Yes,
Gordon: yes, and I know it was good to kind of get familiar and get to know Malka before we started recording, and Malka is a therapist up in New Jersey.
And has had a lot of experience working with trauma and I'm going to let, let Malka tell her story and just talk about the things that she's working on through the Kesher Shalom Project. So Malka, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Malka Shaw: Thank you so much. So, as he said, my name is Malka Shaw. I reside in New Jersey with my husband and three kids, and professionally, I've been in the field for over 25 years. My professional experience has varied in many different ways and forms. I have currently been in private practice for over 16 years.
My practice ranges from. maternal wellness, women's issues, couples and trauma. Trauma is one of my specialties. I am an EMDR therapist as well. And one of the unique things about me that I was telling Gordon is I was involved in 9 11. I was living in New York City and I was there for 9 11 and involved in working with the Red Cross and FEMA debriefing all the First responders and very much involved in New York City.
And since then I've been involved in a lot of large scale disasters. And that's actually what put me in a unique position to step forward for the Jewish community after the tragedy of October 7th.
Gordon: Yes, yes, and I, I think it's something that's really in the forefront of our minds given all that, particularly as we're recording this, given all that's happening in the Middle East and, and just you know, and I know even with friends of mine that are Jewish and just all, it's just really very heart wrenching kinds of things and, and people are, are struggling.
And it's, I think, too, as we were chatting about before we started recording, just making us more and more aware of just kind of some anti Semitism that is probably been under the surface all along, but now we're really seeing it come out. So Yeah. So tell us what you're learning and tell us what we need to know about all of this.
And I'm really excited to learn about the Kesher Shalom projects and the work that you're doing there. And I know my good friend, Lisa Mustard, who's also part of this the Sightcraft Network is a dear friend. And I know she's involved with that as well. She's on the board.
Malka Shaw: She's on the board. She's really great.
Yeah. Yeah, so there's a lot to be said. So I think one of the things when you said things are under the surface for a long time, I think that's one of the levels of trauma that's hitting after after is this level of betrayal and, you know, I liken it to some of the things I do my individual practice, which is betrayal trauma.
So I think what's happening for many people in the Jewish community is they're waking up to find that people that they thought were friends, colleagues, people that they would, you know, hang out with at the gym or something recreational are now posting anti Semitic comments online. And what do you do with that?
How do you, where do you put space for that? And how do you reconcile that? And who is, who is really there for me? I would like to just take a step back and just explain what the process was like for me when I woke up on October 7th. So I actually am observant, so I found out a little bit of a different way.
It was in the middle of a Jewish holiday, so we abstained from electronics on those days. What happened is I was in synagogue celebrating a holiday and all of a sudden all these police cars just showed up at my at our synagogue and all of a sudden we hear we're giving you extra security. You guys need extra security and nobody we getting little bits and pieces of information because we can't watch it or open up our own phones that day and in that moment when they said we're giving you extra security, the police all showed up to protect us.
I knew. I knew in my heart that something was off and my life was never going to be the same again. When, as the details unfolded, and as I realized that we experienced one of the most disgusting, devastating attacks in recent human history since the Holocaust. I knew my life was never going to be the same and I knew things were going to change.
But why this is even more devastating, even in my experience in 9 11, is the biggest difference is in 9 11 the whole world came to support New York's New York citizens. The whole world gave us empathy and we were there. After October 7th the world went silent and then after the silence came the finger pointing and there was macro gaslighting pointing at the victims as being the The people, you know, you deserved it, you mens for it and whatever your opinions are about what's going on in the Middle East, the facts remain that the rise in anti Semitism right here in America has increased 464%.
So it's not about politics and it's not about Israel. It's about hating Jews and anti Semitism. The Jewish population is 2. 2 percent of the United States. 60 percent of the hate crimes are targeted at Jews, reported hate crimes. So, when we talk about the Jewish population as somebody that's privileged or not really a minority, because that's a lot of what we're hearing, let's look at the facts.
We are a minority. We are only 2. 2 percent of the population that's lower than most of most one of the smallest minorities here, and we're not actually given a seat at the minority tables most often, especially in the field of mental health. So there's just a lot of different pieces for it. So Kesher, I just want to let everyone know, Kesher means connections and Shalom means peace.
So what we're looking to do is just create connections with the Jewish community and the outside world, specifically in the fields of mental health, so we can just create an understanding and a peace and Shalom, we all just want peace, inner peace and external peace.
Gordon: Yes, yes. You know, one question that comes up and I know we kind of hit on this a little bit before we started recording Malka is I think it's probably a good idea for us to define what anti Semitism might be because I think maybe people out there might maybe saying things or doing things that are If anti semitic and might not even realize it to some degree or it's just kind of embedded in the culture with what we say and what we do.
I think people need to be aware of.
Malka Shaw: I think that's an amazing point. Anti semitism is a form of racism. It's any kind of prejudice, discrimination or harm against a specific people. What's a little bit about unique about Jewish is Jewish could be a religion and ethnicity and a culture. Some people will relate to the religion.
And some people relate to the culture and some people relate to the ethnicity and not, and not the other. So you can have somebody who's culturally and ethnically Jewish, but not necessarily religious. So it's any kind of prejudice against the Jewish people. I think 1 of the myths out there is, well, I'm only an anti Zionist, but I'm not anti semitic.
And I would love to just clarify what that actually means. Because I think now, especially on social media, there's a lot of definitions of Zionism, which are. Just not true. So if you don't mind, I want to just tell people what the yes,
Gordon: I think that would be good.
Malka Shaw: Okay, so Zionism just simply means the belief that the Jews have the right to self determination, meaning we have the right to survive, and that we belong.
And that we want, we have the right to have our own homeland, 90 percent of people who are Zionists believe the homeland is in the land of Israel, but it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be in the land of Israel, and it doesn't, but it just means that they have the right to that land, and that having the right to the land does not exclude anybody else from living in the land.
That's what I want to be very clear. It doesn't mean that we can't live side by side, but just that we have the right to have a place that's safe. Israel, as it is, as it is now, and I created in 1948, was created as a result of the Holocaust because there wasn't a place for safety. So what happens is for most Jews around the world, just knowing that Israel exists and knowing that if something should happen ever again, they have a place to safety.
So when people say I'm anti Zionist, what you're really doing is you're saying. You don't have the right to be safe. That's what we're hearing. You're, you, we don't think you have the right to be safe. And we don't believe that you have the right to be safe. And Zionism doesn't mean that at all. And the other thing you should know is there's also a large portion of ultra religious Jews who don't believe in the modern state of Israel because they believe that Israel can only be returned through religious means when the Messiah comes.
We're not going to get religious here because I'm here as a therapist. But from a trauma perspective, what is the definition of trauma? Trauma is any time you feel unsafe or overwhelmed, whether it's real or perceived. So taking, so threatening somebody's level of safety, understanding that Israel just represents, Hey, if the Holocaust should happen again, we have a place to flee.
But now if you're posting online, I'm anti Zionist, meaning I don't believe that you have the right to safety. I don't believe that you have the right to defend yourself. I don't believe you have the right to self determination. That is anti Semitism. So we have extreme, we have the Zionist antisemitism, we have outright antisemitism when people are marching on college campuses for our destruction.
And then there's small forms of racism, like the stereotypes you might see in social media, Hollywood, that's been going on for years, making fun of Jews. I mean, I guess we make fun of all cultures, but it's all racist. It's all a level of prejudice that exists. I mean, it just builds up to, you know. This resentment, which isn't really there, you know, we shouldn't really be there and lumping all Jews into one category.
The other thing people need to understand is that Jews are multicultural. The majority of the Jews are not Caucasian. They don't look like me. The majority of the Jews are what we call Sephardi and Mizrahi, which meaning they're either Spanish or dark skinned. So when people, you know, use certain words about, against the Jewish people saying, you know, liking us to our biggest enemy, it's gaslighting on a huge level.
Mm
Gordon: hmm. Mm hmm.
Malka Shaw: Yeah. So I just think people need to be careful about, I'm not saying that you can't criticize the modern state of Israel, because we all can criticize. Name one government. That you agree 100. Do you agree with American government 100 percent of the time is so you can criticize Israel, you can criticize Netanyahu, you can criticize the military strategies, but saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist, saying that I don't that I hate Zionist is a form of anti semitism.
And I want to be really clear about that. And I really want people to understand when you're saying that you're hurting people in their heart. Because imagine I told you, people from Tennessee don't have the right to exist. I don't know that much, or or Therapists don't have the right to exist. You're lumping an entire group of people into one category.
Gordon: Right, right. Yeah. You know what? One of the things that comes to mind for me, Malka, as you're, you're talking about this is one of the, you know, and I think this is such an important, important topic just because, Just globally, I think is, is that what we've experienced in recent years is so much polarization of really just kind of wanting to put people into boxes and and taking this kind of black and white way of thinking.
about things. And what we know as therapists, and you were, you were alluding to this even before we started recording, our job as therapists is to really meet people where they are and to understand their internal world. Well, part of, part of anybody's internal world is the culture with which they came from, which really none of us has a choice in that.
It's just who we happened, how we happen to be born and who we're born to and all of that sort of thing. And You know, one of one of the many hats that I wear is, I'm a, I'm a clergy person in the Episcopal Church. So one, one of the things I I like to, to explain to people is, is that I'm CII identify as Christian by virtue of the culture I was born to, I was born, I was born into a, into a Christian culture.
If I had been born in India or if I had been born in any any other. parts of the world, I probably would have, I would, I would have been part of that culture. And I would have, that's what I would have known. And that's what I would have been brought up in. But I think everybody, maybe one way to think about this is everybody, I think, has the need and the right to seek meaning in their life.
Through what they're familiar with. I think there are many, not to get overly religious here because we are, you know, we are therapists, but I think there are many paths to God and to higher being or however you want to put that. And I think what we have to do is we have to find what brings meaning to us and brings, like you said, safety.
And feeling knowing that we're familiar and that what whatever we practice or whatever we are born into or the culture that we have. We have to make sure that that's safe for everyone.
Malka Shaw: 100%. I mean, that's our role as therapists, right? Our role is to number 1, have a nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental.
safe place and hold space for anybody's pain and it's our job to relate to the, cause when we talk about it and the trainings, I'll tell you about the Kesher has been writing. We're talking about the core emotions, the core emotions of, you know, feeling betrayed, feeling hopeless. You know, some people are feeling very angry right now in the Jewish community, sadness, depression.
Some people are internalizing the anti Semitism. When we talk about the core emotions of grief Grief, shame, doubt, you know, you know, anxiety, stress. If you can't relate to those emotions. as a therapist, then I don't know what you're doing in the therapy field. But what's happened since Kesher Shalom has been developed is people have been reaching out to us on so many different vehicles, both therapists and clients alike.
I've had so many therapists tell me that clients have dropped them for simply because they're Jewish. They've been in therapy with them for a long time. They said clients have said outright horrible things to them in the middle of therapy session. I've had People tell me that the therapists are not providing empathy saying, well, you're not really a minority or.
Okay. So you've been dealing with prejudice for a couple of weeks. Think about the other cultures who've been dealing with it for years and I'm just horrified that a therapist could even say that to any client. You know, because the client's coming to them with something real and first of all, it's not true.
Jews have been suffering for over 3000 years and we, our courses go through the whole line of Jewish history and it's been going on for 3000 years of history of slavery and persecution, but second of all, if that's that client's experience when they walk in the door, how could you not validate that experience?
Think about the extra damage that that therapist is causing on the client and. Okay. You know, we need to get, we need to really get the message out there and we really need to continue providing training for therapists on Jewish cultural competencies as well as to really understand the Jewish culture and understand what's going on, because, believe it or not, you know, many states, I don't know what it is in Tennessee, require cultural competency requirement for the continuing ed and you're not going to find, you don't, you don't often find Jewish as one of the options.
You really don't. So that's going to be a little bit. That's one of the things that we're covering right now in our trainings. Just understand the history and understand it from a trauma perspective. There's layers of things called intergenerational trauma, and all the studies are pretty recent, you know, general trauma is passed on from mother to, you know, in mother to child in the womb.
And how that goes into parenting and attachment and how that can affect, you know, so it's this whole cycle of intergenerational trauma on top of the fact that we are now experiencing an active, an active trauma, and we're actually labeling this a communal trauma. So the Jews, the Jewish world right now is cons, is in a communal, tra active communal trauma.
And I differentiate that from a collective trauma. So collective trauma is something we've all experienced because that's covid, right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , the whole world. When we had the lockdown, that was a collective trauma, but a communal trauma is something that is for a targeted population. So while I've lived in my lifetime through three large things, so the COVID, 9 11, and now October 7th, I would put 9 11 and COVID as a collective, and I would put 10 7 is a communal trauma.
So when you have the, that background, and then if a client's walking in and they had a personal trauma, so you, we know as trauma therapists, trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma, it all adds up. And then that's where you can really see development of complex trauma and PTSD.
Gordon: Right, right. Yeah. So yeah.
Malka, what what would you, if, for, for folks that are. are non Jewish that are working with Jewish clients, particularly therapists. What would be some, some advice or some direction that you would give in how we can be more compassionate and empathic and do better work to help folks that are experiencing all of this?
Malka Shaw: Right. Well, the 1st thing I want to say is politics don't belong in the therapy room. So we've experienced a lot of therapists going off on their own policy politics to clients. And as I said, you can put aside your whatever you think about the government, the modern government. Is separate from the word Zionism.
And really, when the client's coming to you, the most important thing is to relate to that core emotion. What is that core emotion underneath? And then when whatever that core emotion is, how would you treat it any other way? So if somebody's feeling betrayal, because their colleague who they used to hang out with is now posting anti Semitic comments.
It's a betrayal. Treat it as a betrayal. If they're, you know, having self doubt and it's affecting their self esteem because they're internalizing the anti Semitism, that's a therapy issue. How could they, you know, how can you rebuild their self confidence and their, you know, and work through those feelings of shame and doubt?
If they're going through it. They're going through a process where they're feeling dysregulated. So it's our job to regulate our clients. But it's really about just having the empathy and the understanding that it's a culture right now that is hurting on and it's being gaslighted on a macro level and it doesn't, you know.
One of the things that I tell clients all the time is that we need to unplug to recharge. So we, you know, the social media is definitely not helpful to see it in too many, too many big doses because it feels like every few weeks there's another drop in the bucket that just kind of recharges it. It's important to be aware of what's going on, especially what's going on in Congress right now.
It's really important, but to that, that OCD level of looking at the social media on an ongoing loop is not going to be helpful for your clients. But for the therapist, you want to be under, you want to understand what's going on. You know, to hear Congress tell the presidents of Ivy league schools that they need to step down because they're anti Semitic is shocking.
You know, I don't know if you saw that, Gordon. Like, it's shocking. Yeah, yeah. You know, what's going on. And, you know, I'm very grateful that Congress is standing up for us. But, the fact that they even have to is shocking. You know, you think it's 2023, I'm sorry, 2024, Happy New Year. And we still have to go through that.
And, you know, and they still have to be told you need to step down. Mm hmm. It's, it's a shock to the system. So, you know. Again, it's not about what you personally agree with or not agree with. It's about real coming, you know, it's starting where the client is at. Just the basics of, of being, that's the basic tenet of social work.
Start where the client is at, have empathy for where the client is at, and also really understand that whatever your preconceived notions are, the facts are the facts. I can read off the fact sheets. Jews make up 2. 2 percent of America. They make up 0. 02 percent of the world's population. So when people say, well, you're not really a minority, or you're really, you're not really a marginalized people.
No, it's not true. It happens to be that we're a very successful minority. And we're a survivor and we have a survivor mentality and whatever, for whatever reason, the successful or the survivor mentality feeds into the anti Semitism because people, but as you said, it's this polarized world of like, either you're good or you're bad.
You're either a victim. Or you're the victor. But why can't you be a successful, somebody who's been victimized, but still be successful? Because that's really the definition of a Jew in modern society. We rose from the ashes of the Holocaust. So, and when you look at some of the more successful professions, we are, the numbers are not representative, meaning.
Nobel Peace Prize winners, people with PhDs, you're going to have a very, a much larger than 2. 2 percent of Jews who have accomplished that. So that also lights the fire, but it also makes it a much more complicated and the world is not black and white. And you have to look at all the different shades of gray when a client walks in the room.
You can be successful and you can be a survivor, but it doesn't mean you're not hurting and it doesn't mean you haven't had some level of victimhood. It's just that's what's embedded in the culture of being a Jew. What's embedded in our culture and our value is the idea of not seeing ourselves as a victim and seeing ourselves as survivors.
Gordon: Yeah. Yeah. You know what? One of the things Malco that I think about is when you talk about empathy to me, what goes hand in hand with empathy is, is being curious and not critical of being able to if you don't know is to really. Dig in and find out what the other person's internal world is like, and for them to be able to give voice to that.
Because you know, they don't, probably until you've walked a mile in somebody's shoes, you just don't know what it's like for them. And so, being able to be curious about that and, and try to understand, I think is, is, is the road to healing with, with all of this. And you know, I again, one of the, one of the things, again from my, my own culture, my own faith background, being Christian, is a lot of Christians don't know their history.
They don't know that we came from The Jewish
Malka Shaw: tradition. Can I just say it? Yes. Jesus was a Jew. Yes, absolutely. Can I just say it? Yes,
Gordon: absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that we need to be reminded of that and reminded of, you know, the traditions that we carry. Came from the Jewish traditions and we're, I think we're, we, we need to be grateful for that.
And so yeah, so,
Malka Shaw: not only that, but we have more in common when you really think about humanity. We have much. Absolutely.
Gordon: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean Not to get, again, way off on a tangent. You know, our, the, the, the Christian practice of the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper comes directly from the Seder.
I mean, it's, I that's, it's just, it's just that, it's just that simple and it's, so we again, it's I think people need to be aware of that and I think if we can, we can be grateful for that. Be but what's the other word I'm looking for? Just being humble with, with all of that. I think it's, it's so important to recognize.
Malka Shaw: Well, I think that's a lost part of being a therapist is being a therapist. You need to have a little bit of humility. And I don't, I, that's one of the things that I. That's also a tangent that I see with the younger population coming into the field. You need to have a level of humility. One of the things that I enjoy about being a therapist so much is just the getting to know such a wide scale of people.
And especially because I'm in the New York area, why that vast of cultures. And when we talk about culture, it's not even the traditional sense of culture. Like I'll have a nurse, I'll have nurses in an ER or I'll have a lot of cops. And each of these professions have an old, like. Cops have a culture nurses working in a hospital have a culture and we get to be a little like we get to have these little windows and really be a little bit of a jack of all trades and understanding of all different, you know, every person is a different universe.
And, you know, you come to being a therapist because you really love and care for people as. As just humanity. So that is one of the things. But then when I now hear all these stories about therapists who are so invalidating and not coming from a place of curiosity and coming from a place of judgment in the therapy room, the therapy room is a place that's supposed to be the safest in the world for somebody to express their emotions is very disheartening.
You know, because it's something that I take a lot of pride in. I've obviously put in my time in the field and I'm very passionate about the work that I do. And I see how you're very passionate about the work that you do. So when we see, you know, when there's bad therapy out there, it is, it's hard for us to work through and manage.
And it's really, it's really hard when clients come to us. And they're like, well, maybe I could only go to a Jewish therapist, or who can I go see? And, you know, we don't want that either. We don't want to be isolated either. So, you know, that's why we started doing these. We're doing these continuing ed courses.
And that's why we, they're all coming from a trauma perspective. And that's why we're going to continue doing the continuing courses, and we're going to be putting out a lot of support groups out there, and we're available for organizations to come in and bring us in and do trainings for their staff, you know, several organizations have already reached out to us, and we're just, we want to continue the dialogue, and one of the best parts of our training is after the presentation, we open it, it's an open, the dialogue that is open, And the stories that we hear through the trainings and the dialogue that's created is really one of the best parts, and it's just really eye opening for non Jewish and Jewish therapists to speak about, you know, their experiences, and that's all we want.
We just want to have an open dialogue and an open discussion with people.
Gordon: Yeah, and that's, that's so necessary just to have conversation and dialogue is really where we're gonna, gonna end all the polarization, all of the, all the hatred, all the racism that's, that's going on. So, yeah. Well, Malka, I've got to be respectful of your time, and I, I know we could spend all day talking about these important things.
Tell folks about how to get in touch, tell them about the Kesher Shalom Project, and that sort of
Malka Shaw: thing. Awesome. Okay. So we, we actually just launched a website. It's www. cashershalom. com. You could reach me at malka at cashershalom. com in terms of finding out more information about the trainings. You can go as a professional, you can go on the website and sign up for our newsletter.
So you'll be always updated. We are going to be starting specifically doing Jewish parenting courses in the times of anti Semitism, both for elementary school and parents of college students, as well as programs for college students. If you want to get in touch with me personally, my website is MalkaShaw.
com. We kept the names very simple so people can know about it. And we hope to see you. We hope that you join with us and you can support us and, you know. Again, one of the things we, the Jews have had a longstanding history of supporting all the other minorities. So we, this is a time that we're hurting and we just want support, understanding, and empathy.
And I think that's what every human being in the world deserves, is support, understanding, and empathy. And, Gordon, thank you so much. It's really been my pleasure to get to know you. And you're just an amazing soul out there. And, you know, we hope that we continue to work with you and have partnerships with you as well.
Well,
Gordon: thank you. Thank you. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary for everybody to, to access everything very quickly. And I'm, I'm sure we'll be talking again here soon, soon, Malka. And it's really been good to get to know you today.
Malka Shaw: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Are we stopped recording?