Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really excited for you to get to hear from Jarrod Hoffman today. Welcome, Jarrod.
Jarrod Hoffman: Hey, thanks for letting me be here.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, and Jarrod is, uh, now is, uh, uh, we were, we were talking a gr- a good bit before we started recording, but Ca- uh, Jarrod is also in Tennessee, but the opposite end of the state for me, in Memphis, Tennessee.
And, um, but Jarrod, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah. My parents were divorced when I was 10 years old, and I found porn for the first time at 11 years old. It wasn't until 25 that I saw a therapist myself for the first time, which is a little embarrassing because even at, at school, which was right outside of Chattanooga, I lived literally three doors down from the counseling office in my dorm, and I just, I walked by every day to meals, and I didn't know why anybody would need that.
And so now I am making that gap smaller, specifically for teen boys who, y- you know, are talking about that s- the stuff that's happening at the time that it's occurring rather than- Yeah ... 10, 20 years later.
Gordon Brewer: That's really cool, and a much needed niche, I think. It's just, um, Yeah, we, that, that would be a whole episode just talking about the influence of porn and all of that sort of thing.
Mm-hmm. But, um, I know as we were, were chatting before we started you were telling me a little bit of your story about moving from grad school and working for a pri- a private practice group, and then-
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: deciding to make the transition out on your own, and yeah, so te- tell us that, that journey.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah. I, I was sharing with you that quick conversation that I had on a walk with a therapist who, who just told me, and he, he does excellent work, he actually sees plenty of my friends, and he told me that I should just expect to get a job out of grad school making 30 to $40,000 a year, and probably overworked, and maybe even, p- the potential for burnout.
And I was on that walk, and I thought, "I have a family. I wanna start a family and have some kids over the next couple years. I'm not really interested in burning out and not getting paid enough." And- Yes I ended up getting a, an internship at two private practice groups, and I stayed on with one of them and have learned a lot.
It's been extremely difficult, but I make more than $30,000 a year, and we had kids. I probably could have done that regardless of my pay, you know, in hindsight. Mm-hmm. But, yeah, it's given me a whole lot of freedom and purpose in maybe the... I have a bit of an entrepreneurial trait. You know? I, I've been- Right
kind of doing stuff for a long time, and so anybody who kind of fits that mold, this is actually very exciting.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. Uh, yeah, you're exactly right, and I think that's, uh, one of the key things that I think separates people that want to be private practice owners from people that would prefer just to work for a private practice.
Mm-hmm. And I know that, uh, most of my staff is that way. They're not really all that interested in the business side. They wanna do their clinical work- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... but also have the freedom and the autonomy that private practice can provide.
Jarrod Hoffman: Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So a- as you made that transition you know, I think it's, it's typical for most people right out of grad school to go work for another private practice or go into agency work.
What, what was it that just kinda mo- what were kind of the motivating factors for doing, going out on your own as much as anything?
Jarrod Hoffman: Some of it definitely has to do with my yeah, like I said, entrepreneurial kind of like dreams. Part of the thing that was coming to light when I was in these, in the group practice was kind of they have a, a vision and a model which is excellent for someone like you're talking about who- Mm-hmm
is hired. They wanna see people. They want you to help them get to be able to see more people, versus m- me especially wanting to explore and see even what's out there. The things that I'm doing right now, just even three years a- after I graduated, are not even what I expected I would be doing-
Gordon Brewer: No
Jarrod Hoffman: way
in the first year. I remember writing in grad school "Okay, I'm gonna see, you know, 20 clients. I'm gonna take these breaks during my, my day, and I'm just gonna fill my schedule with seeing one-to-one clients." And, or- Mm-hmm ... even a year later, I was like, "Oh, I could do groups." And so I started a group.
Uh, some of those things are just less available sometimes in the group practice- Mm-hmm ... who has their own identity and agenda.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think that's a, yeah, a, another, you know, there, there are lots of reasons for people to go into private practice, but I think one is, you know, really the autonomy.
That, that's the big thing that I hear over and over. Mm-hmm. A theme I hear over and over from people, and I know it was for me as well. I mean, just having that autonomy and being able to set your own schedule and determine when and how you're gonna work is pretty, pretty big.
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So what, what are some of the, um, what have been the things that maybe have caught you by surprise about private practice, and maybe lessons learned and that sort of thing?
Jarrod Hoffman: You know, what we just talked about was kind of an external factor in some ways. You know, what, what is the group doing that you would rather be doing differently?
What is the job expectation? That kind of thing. The thing that's caught me by surprise is the internal part of private practice. And so the things that come up for me are price, right? How much am I charging? And how do I use my expertise? So price and expertise. And when I think about both of those, price and expertise, that's an internal battle that I have to wrestle with.
Yes. And so this is probably something you hear all the time. It's like, what is my rate? What do I charge for my work?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: As people who are caught in this kind of expectation that if we're, are to be really helping people, that we would not charge them very much, and- Mm-hmm ... I have found that not to be true, but I've only found that not to be true as I've grown inter- internally in the value that I have for myself.
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
Jarrod Hoffman: And so that is something that maybe is, is- You know, we kind of just say, I, I've even fallen in this trap, "Just, hey, you need to raise your rate." And it's like you can't raise your rate without doing the work inside. Mm-hmm. And so then the other thing would be the expertise. I remember early on in, in working with this marketing coach trying to get clients because my group did not really...
I calculated it. It's like they really only provided about 25 to 30% of my clients as I was tracking how they came in. So I was trying to build a referral network, and the refer- the marketing coach was like, "You need to do a training, offer a training." And of course, my first thought is, "Who am I to offer a training?"
Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And then I start doing the work on the people I'm offering this training to may not have ever been to a master's program for counseling. And if they have, they probably haven't spent as much time with teenage boys as I have. And you know, I can go down the list. Yeah. And it takes iterations and effort and a long time.
I'd say it's taken three years to get to where I am right now. And even s- recently on the podcast, you know, uh, okay, let's work on being on some podcasts. Man, that first one, frightening.
Mm-hmm. Impossible. Right. Why am I being interviewed here? W- why would anyone watch me on YouTube? And now I'm like 13 in, and it doesn't bother me.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's, uh, you know, it's that, that whole struggle of imposter syndrome that I think- Mm-hmm ... a lot of us struggle with. And even though I've been in practice, private practice for 20 years now, um- I still struggle with that sometimes. Who d- Mm-hmm ... who am I? What do I know, kind of thing.
Well, I- What
Jarrod Hoffman: does, where does that come up for you?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. I think it's, um, yeah, it's I guess when I, part of it is doing this podcast, and I interview just some really brilliant people, and you know, I think, oh gosh, I'm not in their league whatsoever. Mm. And it's that, you know, it's that whole internal struggle of, comparing yourselves to others and-
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm
Gordon Brewer: you know, living up to kinda some false expectations or narratives that we create around all of that. And so yeah, and I think it's, uh, y- you know, to your, to your point as far as the internal struggle, it's it really is so important for us that are in this field and the profession to do our own work and do our own therapy.
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. And I think that's, um, it just makes us better all the way around, even if it has nothing to do with our therapy practice. But yeah but it, it feeds into that. Yeah.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes. A story comes to mind. Mm-hmm. When I raised or I've, I've heard some people say adjusted, I adjusted my rate because I-
Gordon Brewer: Uh-huh ...
Jarrod Hoffman: I realized maybe I had some more expertise than I originally had calculated, whatever the reason was.
So I moved it. I remember moving it from 145 to 165, which I've learned now that's the same number. 145, 165, I don't know many people who aren't gonna come see you because of a $20 difference when it's that expensive, right? Right. Mm-hmm. So not only is it really not much of a change anyway I was sharing that with one of my clients, and they didn't even know how much I was charging them.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Jarrod Hoffman: They were like, "Oh, I don't care. What is your rate?"
Gordon Brewer: Yeah ...
Jarrod Hoffman: you don't know how much is charged every time on your credit card? No, I don't care. I, I networked with someone recently who got the feedback from someone that they could make it $1,000, they wouldn't care. Mm-hmm. Because they truly have gotten value from their time with them.
Mm-hmm. And, and that's an internal thing, right?
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right.
Jarrod Hoffman: That it, it really, it chips away at some of those shame messages I might hear otherwise.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah, and I think that, I think that's one of the, difficulties, I think, in, you know, in graduate school and academia is that yeah, true, we are caring, and we have compassion for people, and that sort of thing, and it's that disconnect between, okay, charging for that, you know, it's kinda like this meta message of, oh, if you charge for kindness and compassion or-
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm
Gordon Brewer: expertise along some line, then you're taking advantage of people. Um- Mm-hmm ... and so, yeah. And so I think that's a, that's a struggle for all of us, and, you know, not to go too far down the rabbit ho- hole, but it, I think it, it comes up for a lot of people because of just the messages about money that we get- Mm-hmm
when we're growing up, you know? Mm-hmm. Just a lot of money shaming and that kind of thing.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I like to tell people, nobody bats an eye. My mom's an accountant. They don't care that her rate is $300.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: Or whatever it is. Right. But for some reason we carry that on to the, the counseling profession.
Uh, how- Yeah ...
Gordon Brewer: how
Jarrod Hoffman: dare you?
Gordon Brewer: It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting how that is. You know, yeah, and it's, um, the truth of the matter is too is, is that if you really dig into your own value as a clinician and think about the time and the effort that you've put into getting to licensure, y- you know- Mm-hmm
as-
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: as a clinician you're st- you've spent no telling how much money in grad school just to get your education. Yes. Um, you've gotten those hours put in, the all of those kinds of things, and then on top of that, having a master's degree. It used to be, I, I need to look up the statistic, but it used to be that only y- like 10 to 15, and it might have been less than 10% of people within the United States or within the world hold master's degrees.
Mm-hmm. And so it's, um, yeah. And so it's just really yeah, r- recognizing that what you do offer- is of value, and-
...
Gordon Brewer: You, and you know stuff too. Yes, yes. I mean, you don't go through all of that without knowing stuff and really becoming an expert.
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So yeah, so what what would you say have been the mistakes that you've made along the way
Jarrod Hoffman: Wow, okay. We're- how much time do we have?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jarrod Hoffman: I, I would say, uh, mistake, I, I actually talked to my wife about this. It's like our-
Gordon Brewer: Uh-huh ...
Jarrod Hoffman: we're, we're moving into a transition where, uh, she's gonna return to work kind of part-time. It's a good situation. Our kids can be in their, the school's sort of daycare, and she said, "Are we making a mistake?"
And I, maybe I'm, I'm learning that mistakes aren't permanent most of the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So even a mistake I might have used to say, "Well, gosh, we gotta avoid those at all costs," and now it's like, that would be silly. That would be impossible. Are we making a mistake? Maybe, yeah, but we can 100% recover from the mis- mistake.
So, you know, in that language of how I made tons of mistakes in the past three years. I've and, and sort of iterated on them. Oh, that was a really terrible post that I made. That's a bad title. No one cares about that kind of wording for their problem. And so then I'll, I'll try again, and I'll, I'll adjust it a little bit, and I'm like, "Oh, wow, that was much better received."
And so maybe thinking about it more as like, uh, it's the practice of therapy, right? In the same way- Mm-hmm ... that, like, would you tell someone who's playing basketball, like, what were your big mistakes? It's like, I, I- Mm-hmm ... I miss shots all the time. Mm-hmm. Um, I say that, "Oh, man, I could've said that in a much kind of more pointed way on the call with the potential client."
So- Mm-hmm ... one thing that I've done a lot differently recently that might fall into your category of mistake is, you know, I used to... Wha- what's the first question they ask if they can ask a question right away? It's how much is your rate?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, do you take... Yeah, how much is your
Jarrod Hoffman: rate-
Gordon Brewer: Do
Jarrod Hoffman: you
Gordon Brewer: take insurance?
or do you take, do you take my insurance? Yeah.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes. Yeah. And, uh, unfortunately for them, I don't accept their insurance, and my rate is insane. And it's, it's because I pro- provide a lot of value. I work with teen boys, so I kind of build into my rate that I'm probably gonna call their school counselor.
I'm gonna try to talk to their pediatrician. All these things that, you know, it actually makes my rate very low compared to the work that I do. Mm-hmm. So what do they say? They say, "Do you take my insurance?" They'll say that the first sentence if I let them. Mm-hmm. And my mistake usually was to address that.
Now, I sidestep. I go, "Hey, you know, we can talk about that stuff. Why don't you tell me why you reached out first?" Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then they go into explaining their, their problem, what's going on, and then they'll say, "Okay, so that's what's going on, and, and what's your rate per session?" I say can I see if I got that right?
So you're struggling because your teen boy is lacking confidence, and they're throwing tantrums, and you really wanna see them get better grades." Yes Awesome. I got your, I got it right. Okay, cool. Is there anything else? And then they go a little bit longer. And obviously this takes time, and my rate allows for those kind of lengthier conversations to see if I'm the right fit.
By the time we get to the rate and the insurance, it's irrelevant.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: Because they've discovered that I listen to their problems, and I'm, I'm willing to engage it, and I, I fully understand it, and that's before we've even stepped into the room. And so that's a mistake. Mm-hmm. I used to answer that question because I thought that was the real issue.
Do they take my insurance? Yeah. The real issue is do they have the ability to help me?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And that's a, you know, that's a, a classic you know, wi- with, you know, as long as I've been doing this and doing consulting and all of that sort of thing, one of the things about marketing and the messaging that we get out to people, and this is either, you know, if you're just talking to people on the phone or what's on your website or any of that sort of thing, is you want people to understand the potential transformation that can happen- Mm-hmm
by them coming to you, because that's what they're interested in. They've got a problem that they've got, that they're working on or they're struggling with, and you want to be able to convey to them, yes, I can help you with this transformation, and this is what it will possibly look like for you once you go through this process.
Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And that's, to me, that's marketing 101 within, within private practice or within, you know, within our, this field is just helping people get the, get an understanding of the, of what it is that they are wanting to change.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes. That's totally right. Yeah. And that, that insurance question has nothing to do with transformation.
Gordon Brewer: And it's, uh, not, again, not to, not to get too far on a rabbit trail, but I, I remember talking with a friend one time, and they, they were talking about, yeah, I went to therapy one time. It just didn't really, really help much with, and, you know, and, and it was almost like, okay, I went to, went to therapy.
And I asked him, I says, "Okay, what was it that you went to therapy for? What was the change you were looking for?" Mm-hmm. And that kind of struck him. Mm. You know, it's kind of like almost, uh, and I think particularly since COVID, it's kind of like people where ther- going to therapy is a badge of honor.
Right. You know, some, they, you know, it's not, it's not as stigmatized, which is, is great. But you know, really without any sort of direction or intention behind what you're trying- Mm-hmm ... to change I think is- Mm-hmm ... important. And I think it, when you can get to that with people on the front end, I think it, it does help with seeing, them seeing the value in what you do.
Jarrod Hoffman: Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So yeah, so what, what have been some surprises for you about private practice since you've gone into it on your own?
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes. I'm trying to, embrace those the cha- uh, challenges and the surprises as, as fun, right? There's- ... they're opportunities in work clothes, as I've heard on another podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Uh-huh.
Jarrod Hoffman: And so, you know, at first I wanna be like, "Ugh, surprises." Hopefully we can get to a place in the practice where there's never any surprises. That's not gonna happen, right? Mm-hmm. Even in marketing the, there's just whatever's working today, it probably won't work in 10 years. You know, we talk about, oh, you gotta be on Instagram.
Well, Instagram wasn't around 20 years ago. And it, it might not be around in 20 more years. Who knows? Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: And so surprises, I have been very surprised that no one in, and this is connected to marketing, no one cares about my degree or my grades certainly. They don't care about- Mm-hmm ... my EMDR training.
They don't care about- Mm-hmm ... the fact that I'm almost a registered play therapist. When I open it up to questions- They don't even know to ask that, right? Mm-hmm. And so the first thing we like to talk about is, "Oh, you know, I have these things. I could do this type of therapy for you." If they don't know the difference, they're far more conc- concerned with something else.
Okay. Uh, they're concerned about- Right ... can this person help me and, and transform? And so, you know, like, they kind of teach you in grad school, like, you could tell them what you learned and all this stuff, and I opened up the floor to questions, and not, not once unprompted has anyone asked me, "Where'd you go to school?"
Um, far more important that I'm, like, making eye contact with the teen exclusively, uh, really to the exclusion of the parents so that they know I'm here for him, not for you guys- Mm-hmm ... ultimately.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: And so, you know, that just speaks so much louder than whatever letters I have after my name, and I would even con- connect that to, like, why I can charge more is because I, I kind of follow up with that rather than, like, rely on some of these letters.
Right. That's been super surprising.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a... Yeah, and I think that's, um, yeah, that is an interesting thing, 'cause I know one of the things, you know, I used to, when I first started into private practice when, um, you know, when I'd meet with a client or a couple or whatever the first time, I would, you know, go through my spiel or, you know, the housekeeping kinds of things.
Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes.
Gordon Brewer: And, you know, kind of tell them, um, you know, a little bit about my background and, you know, my experience and that kind of thing. And, they, they weren't interested in that. They wanted to get to what it is they came in to work
Jarrod Hoffman: on. Mm-hmm.
Gordon Brewer: And, and so now I've changed that up, and I, I s- you know, go through the basic things about confidentiality and duty to report- Sure
and all the things that we're, you know, we need to, we need to do on the front end. Um- But I just shortened that. Now, are there any questions you have of me about my background or my experience or anything that you're curious about? And very rarely do people wanna know that.
Yeah, very rarely. They, and they wanna start into, okay, this is my problem, this is what I'm here for kind of thing.
And, um- That's
Jarrod Hoffman: right ...
Gordon Brewer: yeah. Yeah.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah. Another surprising thing, this is new. I'm, I'm still working on it, and, uh, and hopefully somebody could, listening could take this away because it's been really fascinating to me. I, I kind of have stolen this from a couple of marketing business people, and I, I... It's not surprising necessarily that we hit these windows of like, oh, wow, I didn't get a client, I didn't even get a call for a month, which is maybe sur- maybe I knew it was gonna happen.
It was more disappointing than surprising, right? Mm-hmm. So that happened this spring, and I, I know a lot of practices, and I even listened to one of the podcasts interviewing someone on here, uh, a lot of practices have slowed down. There's a lot of reasons for that, being, you know, all of these online companies and, and whatnot.
And so I experienced a month of not getting a single call.
Gordon Brewer: Wow. Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: Very surprising. Mm-hmm. Very disappointing. And I was kind of stuck in, like, I could use some hours to finish out my license. I could use some hour- or some, I could use some dollars here. This would be really important. Mm-hmm. And so this was a super surprising thing, uh, that came out of the necessity of something.
I, I don't need one client for 50 minutes once a week or once every other week. Mm-hmm. I need, like, 5 or 10 clients on the next, call. Yeah. And so I just started brainstorming, like, what are the most frustrating things about this once-a-week experience for the, for, you know, particularly the niche of teen boys?
And so I just started listing them. Like, what do parents always complain about? They complain that they have to take their kid out of school. That's infuriating, right? You have to go- Mm-hmm ... pick them up. You have to drop them off. You have to wait an hour, drop them off again to school, hope that you remember to get a note from the, the counselor, all these things.
And so I just started brainstorming, like, all these problems. And, uh, and so this, this, uh, guy I was listening to was talking about making something, like, super expensive and providing a lot of value as another option because I desperately really needed it in that month, right? And so I just made this thing ca- I called it a four-week program.
I basically said, "You can do this therapy in 12 weeks, and it's gonna be painful because it's a lot. You have to come all the way. Or- I have this four-week program. I do a bunch of assessments at the beginning, at the end. We meet for two hours instead of one hour, and I throw in two parent sessions for 90 minutes because that's what you really want, too, is to kind of help- I can help you think through how to parent, right? Package it up. It's a total cost, 2650. If you have the resources and the time, this is a really good thing. If not, we can totally do the 50-minute sessions.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Jarrod Hoffman: So many people have said yes to the- Wow ... four-week program.
Gordon Brewer: Wow.
Jarrod Hoffman: And that's why when we talk about that in- internal struggle, if I'm willing to say, "No, no, I provide value because I've actually thought on your behalf of what would help you and it's in this form.
I can also do the other form. That's totally fine. We can do something in the middle. I don't really care." But yeah. Mm-hmm. Totally surprised that people ... I actually had somebody who didn't even, you know, th- what we were going back to before, where I said, they asked- Mm-hmm ... like, "What's your rate?" And I said, "We can talk about that.
I want to talk about your problem, and I also have this program that could really solve your problem potentially." They forgot to ask about my rate, and I forgot to tell them. They didn't even know- Mm-hmm ... the price of the four-week program.
Super surprising.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, yeah. That's, that's brilliant.
I, a- and I think you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, how we mark time around COVID, but, um, it's, um, I think what people learned i- and along the same vein, I prefer to meet people in person. Mm-hmm,
But, um, yeah, again, just an idea is if you want to have a telehealth session with me, or I'm just saying this hypothetically we can do that, but it's gonna be, be this much as opposed to coming in in person.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so, excuse me, in many ways they're paying for the convenience of not having to travel to your office and travel back and that kind of thing.
Jarrod Hoffman: So you
Gordon Brewer: charge more
Jarrod Hoffman: for telehealth?
Gordon Brewer: No, no. I'm not say- I'm not saying we ... Oh, I do, but I mean, that's just a, I was just kind of thinking out loud there with that about-
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah
Gordon Brewer: you know, but offering to people like you've said, okay this is gonna be more convenient for you and more intensive and all of that sort of thing. Mm-hmm. And you're really gonna get better get to what you're working on quicker- Mm-hmm,
Jarrod Hoffman: mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: by doing it this way, and people are willing to pay a premium for that.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah. And to your point, they want the transformation. Mm-hmm. And they really, they also wanna know how long it's gonna take, and so I, m- my answer is, it depends. Yeah. How much do you wanna come? Obviously resources, you have to factor that in and-
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm ...
Jarrod Hoffman: and there's other places we can figure out.
I have a couple of sliding scales, like we can work through it, but if you want it to take 12 weeks at one hour a week, that's how long it takes. If you wanna take four, you could do it this way.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. I love that, I love that idea about packaging it in that way. Um, you know, I think, uh, I think dep- a- and I think particularly for cash-based practices, that makes it much easier to do that sort of thing.
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I couldn't have done any of this if I wasn't in the practices that really allowed me to kind of operate with a little bit more autonomy, which is- Yeah ... what's so exciting about being on my own.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right, right. So do you think that, um, where you are located geographically, um, makes it easier to be a cash-based practice?
Mm. I've always had this, and I'm, I'm willing to hear other ideas on this, but, um, I've always felt like you have to look at the demographics of your area to kinda look- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... at, okay, can I, can I charge more? Can I be more of a premium service? Uh, are there enough potential clients? And it has to usually be, y- I usually think of it as being in a larger metropolitan area- Mm-hmm
uh, like Memphis or Nashville or, I'm speaking Tennessee, but I mean other places across the United States where there are large, large populations, more people to draw from for potential clients. Do you, a- as opposed to where I am is a small metropolitan area- Mm-hmm ... but we're surrounded by a large rural area, and then I made the decision to accept insurance based on that demographic.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah. So,
Gordon Brewer: I mean, I, I, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on that.
Jarrod Hoffman: That's very thoughtful. What I hear in there is that there's intention behind it.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: Rather than, uh, one strategy is uh, is just to look at what everybody else is charging and charge the same thing. Mm-hmm. And that's not what you did.
And so I'm not entirely sure about the ge- geography, but, you know, Memphis, it has, has a, a huge disparity in wealth, Mm-hmm ... that's been shown. And so- Mm ... you know, another piece to my work is that I have a contract with a charter school, where the- Mm ... charter school has grants and opportunities, and they pay for my counseling services.
So it's really interesting. The, you know, of course, those students would not be able to afford the services that I provide on the private practice side. Mm-hmm ... and so, you know, I don't technically have as full of a private practice because I spend my time doing that on the school side. So maybe an answer is, based on your geography, you can be more creative.
I think that's- Mm-hmm ... where groups can come in. You know, groups are a great way for people to access that care for may- usually a smaller rate. Um- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, that's what's been fun about the private practice, is the creativity. Okay, based on where I am, should I niche more and then offer this telehealth to kind of cover the cost?
I operate on that principle, is I'm going to provi- provide excellent value at a high price because that allows me to be able to give away things for free. I, I don't have to be as concerned if I have five sliding scale clients versus, oh, I can't I have to, you know, book out my calendar completely with, this rate or something like that.
That- Mm-hmm ... that's just kind of what I've adopted, and I think that question speaks to it, is just being aware of what's around you, who's around you, how to serve them without burning out, and being able to pay- Mm-hmm ... your own bills.
Gordon Brewer: All right. Exactly. And it's, it's gonna be u- unique to every practice.
I mean, and, and it's, uh, and the other, other thing I would say is, is that what you come up with doesn't have to stay that way. You can-
Jarrod Hoffman: Mm-hmm ...
Gordon Brewer: you can transition to other ways of doing things.
Jarrod Hoffman: Absolutely.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Good. Well, Jarrod, I know we've got to be mindful of our time and your time, and what, uh, what sort of parting thoughts would you have for us today?
Jarrod Hoffman: We didn't get to talk about journaling. I heard you do that faithfully every day. Yes. That might be one thing- Yes, I do ... I probably j- I probably journal like when is my caseload gonna fill up and, you know? Right. Uh, all of the things that I've been struggling with, so I wanted to connect with you on that.
Yeah. Yeah, final thoughts. Yeah, it's r- it was really annoying in grad school, and I think this is an underlying thing to all of what we've talked about, is niching. They always ask, like, "What is your population that you wanna work with?" And I got annoyed by that, 'cause I'm like, "Do I have to pick one?"
Mm-hmm. And the reality is, it really helps. It really helps to hel- uh, to pick one, because you, you hear a lot of people who start their counseling program with, uh, they would say, "Well, why did you come into counseling?" And you might have a specific story or two, but the general thing is you're gonna say, "Well, I wanna help people."
Of course. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'd be concerned if you didn't want to help people. Okay. But I would encourage people to put a little bit more behind that. Change some pronouns, change some reasons why. Rather than, "I want to help people," you could say, "I am going to help teenage boys find purpose, meaning, and peace through counseling."
Well, now I know which job to go after.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm.
Jarrod Hoffman: And now I know who I'm supposed to network with. Because if you don't know teenag- teen boys or you're not connected to parents who have teen boys, y- you're not gonna really be able to help me fulfill my mission. But if my mission is I wanna help people, who knows who I'm trying to help and, and in what ways and what capacities.
Right. And so- Exactly. Yeah ... I would just challenge people listening I am you know, on my website is going to be a, a page that's dedicated to, I, I did all this data tracking as I finished my license, uh, down to the quarter of an hour, and, uh, some of the things that you talked about, like how much money do you make, uh, what was the licensure process.
I'm putting that together for people to see. Here's what it took. Here are the bad things that happened. Here are some of the good things that happened. Here's the timeline. Mm-hmm. And so hopefully that can be very valuable to people who are both trying to imagine if priz- private practice is for them or if they're in the pra- you know, the, the process of getting licensed or even in grad school.
Gordon Brewer: And I, I would add to that, too, with, uh, thinking about the niche that people, or niche, however you wanna say that. Uh, that people choose, is also pick something that you're passionate about, something that you re- Yes ... that, that energizes you, that you- Yes ... you know, y- you know, it's, we we say it all the time, pick your ideal client.
You know, what, what is that? Who are the clients- Yes ... that you work with that feed you and energize you and make you feel good about the work that you're doing? And that's a huge clue into what's, what your niche should be.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yes. And I understand there are people who say, like, if it's part of your own story, you have to be careful, right?
Because we don't wanna put our stuff on our clients. But more- Mm-hmm ... often than not, the niche is your story.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes.
Jarrod Hoffman: I really believe that. Absolutely. I, you know, my parents- Absolutely ... were divorced at 10 years old. I saw porn at 11. I'm gonna be passionate about teen mental health for my whole life because of that.
Um- Right ... and, and it could change because suffering happens and, but really your story's gonna come from suffering somewhere. Yeah. It could've been a close friend who had something happen to them, and you're really passionate- Mm-hmm ... about making that happen. But yeah, I really think it comes out of your story.
And just pick one, one part of your story, niche into that. Yeah. Don't be scared of it. I, I, I think it gives you more freedom, helps you- Mm-hmm ... kind of say no to some things so you can really say yes to others.
Gordon Brewer: So true. Well, Jarrod, tell folks where, how they can get in touch with you if they would like to and continue a conversation.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah, absolutely. I'm on LinkedIn. That's kind of the social media that I've found isn't completely destroying me and draining me. Ah. Right. I, I think I get a little envious, like you said, of comparison, but overall it's okay, so LinkedIn- Ah ... you can find me there. And then my website is Jarrodhoffman.com.
There's, uh, some resources there. Uh, and I'll be publishing that kind of project with my friend on the data in the next, uh, hopefully by the time this airs, that'll be open, and then I have a quiz, "Does your teen need therapy?" And so- Mm-hmm ... that's just a really, a shareable thing. If you're working with a parent who is wondering, uh, you know, "Is my teen going crazy or is it just a regular teen thing?"
Gordon Brewer: Uh-huh.
Jarrod Hoffman: Use that quiz, share it, and, uh, and that could be helpful for some of your, clients.
Gordon Brewer: Oh awesome and we'll have those links here in the show notes, in the show summary for people to get to easily. Well, Jarrod, it's been great having this conversation, and hopefully we can have another conversation here soon.
Jarrod Hoffman: Yeah. Thank you, Gordon. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for the work you're doing to support people like me who are, you know, trying to succeed in private practice. All
Gordon Brewer: right. Thank you.