The Practice of Therapy

Dr. Liz: Hey everybody. It's Dr. Liz Lasky. I am so excited to be on the podcast, practice of therapy, and we're going to get into all things business. And we're going to probably clue you in about the 21 ways to get what you want in business and entrepreneurship. Perfect. Do you want to do one more cut of that?
Cause I had to look down for the name.
Gordon: No, that's okay. It's okay. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm really excited for you to get to know Dr. Liz Lasky. Welcome, Liz. Hey, everybody, Liz and I have recently gotten acquainted and Liz had reached out to me and she's got an upcoming summit.
She's going to tell us a little bit about in this episode, but Liz is a start with everyone. Why don't you tell folks more about yourself and how you've landed where you've
Dr. Liz: landed? Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to to be on your podcast. And it's so funny because you and I, Gordon have.
probably run in the same circles for so long, but we lived in these separate corners on the internet and now we found each other and we have so much overlap. So it's so nice to be connected with you. Thank you so much for having me. I am a very proud. social worker. I'm a clinical social worker here in New York.
I hold an agency job where I worked in New York city schools for over 15 years. Now I supervise a school based program actually. And that's by day, but by night I have a whole other piece of me that now is interwoven and connected. And I'll share a little bit about that. But in addition to being a clinical social worker, I'm also a PhD in social welfare.
I'm also a certified coach. And I'm an accredited coach with the International Coaching Federation. I'm a very proud fellow of the Institute of Coaching at Harvard University. And I call myself a social worker because I'm a social worker through and through. And I'm also a certified coach. And both of those things blend to make Dr.
Liz Lasky.
Gordon: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's a land and had interviewed me for the upcoming summit. You want to say something about that really
Dr. Liz: quickly? Yeah, of course. So one of the things that I love to do to nobody's surprise, if you know me, is I love to talk to people. And one of the things that I've been doing lately, I've been putting on.
These incredible virtual summits where I've been interviewing people in our industry where they are really making waves and the, the summit that I'm working on now and, and we start airing on March 25th. So by the way, hopefully in these show notes, you'll have a way to sign up for this for the summit, because Gordon is an incredible guest on this summit.
The upcoming summit is called the 2024 therapists. 21 ways to get what you want in business and entrepreneurship. And I'm interviewing 21 people in our industry who are making waves in the business realm. Because one of the things that I'm noticing the most. is that therapists want to diversify their income.
They want to spend less time in that one to one, and they really want to be making more money. So I am offering people 21 ways to do that. They're interesting, rich, funny conversations with people that we wish we could Get on the phone with for a half an hour and I'm asking all the questions that all of you want to ask too.
So the summit summit really is incredible and it's free. It's free to everybody. So come on over and join us for the summit.
Gordon: Yeah, and we'll, yeah, and definitely we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for this but you know, one of the things that I know we had talked about is just this balance between, you know doing the clinical side of things, being an entrepreneur, and just all that goes with that, and, and maybe some of the, um, self shaming we tend to do around You know, making money and all of that sort of thing.
So let's talk about that because I noticed this is something that you're really passionate
Dr. Liz: about. So I want to take you back to when I was living in New York. You know, I was in my twenties. I was working full time in the Bronx in a middle school. I was also doing my PhD at night. And you know, I don't know about you and your, and your training, Gordon, you'll tell me, did you have to go to treatment or to therapy when you were in school?
Was that something they asked you to
Gordon: do? They, they didn't, it wasn't a requirement, but we did a lot of practice on ourselves, but I, I will say, you know, it's so funny. I had a conversation yesterday with Casey Compton and she's we recorded for an episode and we were talking about that very thing about it should be a requirement.
I think that every therapist be in therapy.
Dr. Liz: Well, it was something and by the way, different programs have different rules around that. I tend to agree with that to a certain degree. And it was really important for me to kind of follow that advice and go into treatment when I was in, in my doctoral program.
And I so by the way, if I do anything, well, it's It's go to school. Like if a teacher tells me to do something, stand up straight, right on the left side of the paper, you got it. Like whatever you need me to do at school, I'm there. So they told me to go to treatment. And just because, you know, I I'm so good, I'm good at being in school.
I'm not always great at the work, but I'm good at being a student. They said, go to therapy. I said, great. So I found a therapist on the upper west side of Manhattan. I would go visit her every. Friday at 4:00 PM and by visit, I mean, we would have a session and I honestly, it was such a terrible experience.
Mm. And I left there, I can't even remember her name. I refer to her as, what's her name? Therapist. I can't even I, yeah, I, I, I remember certain things about her, but the most thing I remember is that. I would leave there every Friday at 4. 50, feeling worse than when I came in. And I just want to say for people listening to this, and I'm sure there are people who could be running clinical circles around me for days, I know, I'm a clinical social worker too, I know that the goal of leaving the therapy room is not to walk out dancing on air and being happy.
I know that. But my problem was I, I left there feeling like I was looking for a problem I didn't have. Hmm. And. By the way, I knew there were things I needed to talk about. You know, I was in school for full time while I was working full time. I was in my twenties living in a country where my family did not live.
I'm not from the United States. My family was in a different country. I was in my twenties. I was single. I wasn't going out cause I was working so much. Did I mention I was single? You know, like there were things I really could have talked about. And I just knew that this what's her name, you know, four o'clock on Friday, it just wasn't working for me.
And that was really, and by the way, I had this I don't know if it was an instinct. I don't know if it was in the back of my brain. I don't know if it was just something I knew about myself. But I just always knew there's more than this. There's more than this. There's bigger than this. And I also had the luxury of living in New York city, which is a candy land for ideas and new and different communities.
And I started bopping around to different communities to find that inspiration. I found it a little bit spiritually and I also ended up finding it in the coaching community. And it was around that time where I took my. First where I took my first coaching group where I was being coached by somebody and I just drank the Kool Aid.
I drank it all and I drank it fast. I loved it. I could not get enough. I was going to every class. I was reading every. Book. I was reading every blog post. I mean, it was in the early 2000s. So we were, we're reading blogs. I started a coaching group and it was so long ago that my coaching group for those of you under 35, you'll have to really think hard about this.
We met on the phone. We met on the phone. It was like pre zoom. I know I'm aging myself. Right. So, you know, I started to fall in love with coaching and I just started to see what is possible because instead of always going in. What's the problem? How are you feeling? That different pace, that pace did not match where I was in my life.
I wanted potential. I wanted solution. I wanted to think about things like what do I want to create for myself? What do I want to be? How do I want to show up in the world? I wasn't being asked any of those things in treatment because the treatment was serving a very different purpose. And a big part of that Gordon was also how much money do I want to make?
Because when I was working the South Bronx in a middle school and doing my counseling sessions at a middle school desk with a middle school chair, good things. I'm only good thing. I'm only five feet tall. You know, I was making what 40, 000 a year. But I just kept thinking to myself, there has to be more than this.
I know there's more than this. Why is it only me as a social worker here to accept wearing my plain Jane outfit every day? My plain pair of jeans, my plain t shirt, my plain cardigan. Where was my black pant with a hot pink accent where it was fun and juicy and bedazzled and it was funny and I was making jokes and I felt worried.
Where was that? Because I saw all the people around me who were working in banks, who were working in law firms, who were, had their own business, who were even, honestly, and this is, you know, Manhattan, where the secret sauce in Manhattan is a side gig. Even people who were nannying and walking dogs were happier and more fulfilled than me.
And dare I say, making more money, how was it that a waiter who never went to college was pulling in six figures? And I was, I had a master's degree and a half of a PhD and I'm making 40, 000, the math was not mapping. It just didn't make sense to me. And then, and by the way, let me tell you why this was really rough in my brain for for the old noggin, because it pushed me into an identity crisis.
Because I started coaching. As I told you, I was being coached and I was reading everything and I was finding, Oh my God, this is actually science. This is actually evidence based practice. And I started wanting to implement the coaching, but the people in the social work world, my mentors, my supervisors, my teachers, my colleagues.
They thought I was off my rocker. They thought coaching was bogus. They thought my mindset was delusional. Truly. They thought I wasn't in reality. And then the people on the coaching side, because I eventually, like all people who finish a PhD, immediately go back to school. I went back to school to NYU to do my certificate in coaching.
But everyone in coaching school thought I was equally insane because I was taking things like ethics and confidentiality and the rules so seriously in coaching. So I couldn't find a place. I couldn't find a place to land. So when you ask me about what it's like to build business and to make more money, It was one of those things where I felt we have two very loud voices clashing at, at each other.
One is stay where you are, do the work, be a good social worker, wear your plain jeans, don't make noise, fly under the radar, don't have a personality. It's all the things that we're taught in traditional social work. And I know I might get pushback for that, and that's okay, you can email me about that and we can talk about that more.
But then we also had the, the coaching, which was Be yourself, ask for more, create what you want, build the road to where you want to go. It was a totally different mindset and I just decided for myself, I don't know if I decided for myself or like I said, it was something that was already in me. I just knew in that moment I was building the road to where I wanted to go.
I just didn't want to accept that anymore. And I want to say, I'm coming with a lot of privilege too. You know, I I'm an educated woman, I have resources, I am white. There are a lot of things that also put me in that, in that position to have privilege to choose that I can build this road. But as I got to know what it was like to build this road, it made it even more made it even more, I guess the word is possible for not only me, but for the, for others in my life as well.
And that, and that is really, though, that is really the bigger picture of why building business is so important to me, having access to good skills as a therapist. And also I, I want, I also want people to know that you can be a therapist. And make serious money.
Gordon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you know, it's funny because as you were, as you were talking about this, I remember early on when I went into private practice and, and I was, you know, it was back in the blogging days and I was posting blogs and talking about private practice and getting into private practice and there was a somebody on On LinkedIn, that was, I believe they were in academia you know, as far as, you know, teaching counselors, therapists, social workers, or whatever, and they may actually made the comment that don't waste your time on private practice because you can't make any money in it, and it was kind of like, you've got to be kidding me that's It's quite the opposite, you know, it's and I think one of the things that and hopefully is changing.
There's a, there's a trying to think of the word I'm looking for, but there's almost a bit of snobbery in academia around. What we do clinically and how we work with people and a
Dr. Liz: little bit. Yeah. Yeah.
Gordon: Yeah. And it's just you know, and I think we're starting to see some pushback with that. I mean, not to get too far off on a tangent, you know, a lot of the professional organizations are struggling like yes.
You know, I'm a marriage and family therapist, you know, AAMFT and organizations like that, which are, are good. And I, you know, I'm not putting them down, but I think they're struggling because I think people are recognizing they can get what they really need in terms of development for themselves and that sort of thing and other ways.
And so I think that's something that we're seeing that's a kind of a trend, but I think
Dr. Liz: that the, I agree with you. I think that there are a lot of problems in the academy. There are a lot of problems in in the universities. There are a lot of problems in some of these training programs for, for therapists.
I also, this is something that I've been really thinking about lately. It's really come up in, in the, in the virtual summit the 2024 therapist. I want to say two things. Number one. Yes, it's true. You can make money in private practice. I also want to offer the idea. It doesn't just have to be private practice.
There are so many ways that therapists can diversify their businesses. So that's number one. That's what I want to say, because I have people who come to me and I coach therapists All the time who have these incredible skills that no one else has because they're fluent in people, they know people, they know human behavior.
So they're whipping up courses, they're doing digital products, they're teaching CEOs, they're running groups, they're doing psycho ed groups, they're running supervision groups. Some of them are doing you know, products. I have someone right now who I'm coaching who she's created stick, a sticker business.
that has, you know, has affirmations on them. So I just want to say it's beyond, it's beyond the private practice these days. And the reason that I called this summit, the 2024 therapist is because everything that we know about what it means to be a therapist and what it means for the consumer to buy therapeutic services, all of that is changing.
We are in a different realm of what it means to be a mental health provider and what it means to be a mental health consumer. So the business of therapy, I think, is really, we are, we are in the midst of change now. And I think if a therapist really wants to make it, then it's two different things. If a therapist really wants to make it first and foremost, I always say to people, you have to know yourself.
You have to know really how you want to give back and you have to really know how you want to be showing up for yourself and for the people that you serve. That comes first for sure. I also want to introduce the idea because there might be people listening to this. It's like, Oh, Liz, I don't want to have this empire of like a digital course and a book and the whole thing.
And that's okay. Cause I think we have to look at the ideas of business development and entrepreneurship almost in separate lanes. Because everyone who's listening to you, the, you know, everyone who's talking to you about their private practice, they're all business owners, they're all small business owners, but they might not have the entrepreneurship spirit.
And this is what I mean by that. And then I'm curious to hear what you have to, what you think about that. To run a business and to run a small business, you can run a small business forever, forever, forever, and you can be making money and you can be making good money. The entrepreneur is that person who's going to make that sticker path, who's going to think of what is happening now.
How can I contribute what's beyond what we know to be typical, what's beyond the status quo. It's a different level of visionary. It's a different level of creativity. Often the people that I coach come to me because they're just in between the business owner and the entrepreneur. You know, so I think that as we are seeing more and more therapists and, and mental health practitioners sort of expand their offerings, we're seeing more of the entrepreneurial
Gordon: spirit.
Right, right. Well, you know, I think one of the things where I see people struggle when they go into private practice. Is they don't understand the difference between being employed versus self employed. And I think a lot of times people go into this creating another job for themselves as opposed to looking at the kind of the entrepreneurial opportunities that they can create, create for themselves.
And I think know, if you create a job for yourself, just as a therapist, And you do a private practice and you do traditional therapy and not much beyond that, you're going to reach a ceiling eventually. There's only so many people you can see. There's only so many hours you can put into doing therapy.
And you know, I think for some people that's all they want and that's fine. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I think you've got to recognize that on the front end. If that's all you want I would say, Why go to the trouble of creating the business? Why not just go to work for somebody as a private in private practice that hires clinicians?
So that you're, you're, you're, you know, finding the right one where you can make You know, the kind of living you want to make create the kind of lifestyle you want to create for yourself. And that's fine. But I think you're, you're absolutely right. I think that what distinguishes, you know, creating a job for being an entrepreneurial entrepreneur is, entrepreneurs have this creative side they have to feed. And so I know that's part of it for me is that, you know, I can, I can you know, create a job for myself and, you know, I can fill up my caseload pretty quickly. I've cut way back in the number of clients I see and to keep a very small caseload, but I'm devoting my time to the creative stuff that really feeds the soul and really gives, gives meaning and all of that sort of thing.
So I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at there, Liz, but I think there's so much more that people can. Can tap into yeah, and at the same time make the money that they need to make for themselves and Feel good about
Dr. Liz: it. Yeah, you know, it's made me think of a couple of a couple of things that I that I want to say I think one one idea I want to offer to people who are It's a mantra that I have, by the way, and I pull this out when I need it because sometimes it's like, Oh, I'm a business owner.
Do I need to be an entrepreneur? I want to do that, but am I going to have to give that, that up? Or how am I, you know, that, that, that. It's the spiraling we do in our head. And I just want to say I have that too. You know, I have those, those thoughts too. I want to offer the thought or the mantra of it's safe to have it all.
It's safe to have it all. And I want to also share how I do that because it's no, I don't, I'm not gatekeeping about anything. So I want to also be very transparent about how I quote unquote do it all because I built first of all, I really believe it's safe to have it all. I still hold an agency job. You know, and I, and that's really important to me.
It's really important to me to stay a social worker and to be very committed to the, to my social justice work and to show up as a social worker. And I also have a business and both of those are really important to me and I believe it's safe to have it all. And does that mean it's always super easy for me?
Absolutely not. You know, like I have to do a lot of things like right now as you and I meet, this is my lunch hour. If I teach, like I have a year long business coaching group called business mastery. We meet every Wednesday at 12 to one, because that is my lunch hour. And I show up fully as the coach.
And then I go back to being fully the agency social worker. Well, I always stay in the agency world. Probably. I don't have to be in that agency world right now. Financially. It's not something that I would say that I really have to do, but it's important to me because I believe it's safe to have it all.
So I just want to say that. So it doesn't have to be all or nothing because the point is this, no one is telling you that you have to get to this. And you and I probably both know this, that you have to get to your six figure mark. Cause guess what? You get to your six figure mark. And you're like, This is it.
I don't, I don't care. Like not, you don't all have to go and get your next six figures. I don't want that for you if you don't want that. But think about this. Would another thousand dollars a month make a difference for your family? Probably. Do you want to wake up on Christmas morning and surprise your kids that you're going to Disney?
Cause you made that extra 6, 000 by selling some psycho ed groups. Yeah, so it doesn't have to be that you want to build an empire. It could also be, you know, I like to call it a cash injection or you want to generate some money, go for your lowest hanging fruit. Like there are a lot of different ways that I teach people how to do that because I know that having an extra 300 a week.
It's going to make people not panic when they walk into Costco.
Gordon: Mm hmm. Mm
Dr. Liz: hmm. Yeah. So I think we have to shift the mindset because I think we hear so much in our industry. I mean, you go on Instagram and you hear all the time, I'm going to get you to six figures. This is your next six figure step.
Although now people got bored with six figures. So now people are building to seven figures, you know, and those are like, Oh my God, can we just take a break for a second? Yes, sure. If you want to get to six figures, whatever, do that. We love that for you. And also, if you just want to make another 500 a week, because your kid needs occupational therapy and you want to go to the best person and it's out of pocket, let's get you that.
Let's make this real for people. Let's make this real for therapists. Let's not make this the biggest entrepreneurial endeavor of your life. Let's cash raise let's fundraise. So your kid can get a new bike. Yeah, that's what it means to me. Like this. This is why I think this conversation is so important.
Yeah, I think we, I think we have so many resources as therapists and we just know what to do so often. We just have to do it for ourselves and get a little, allow the creativity to roll through us.
Gordon: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. Well, well, Liz, I know we've got to watch our time here, but would you tell folks a little bit because you kind of hit on it.
Is what are just some trends that you're noticing in how our whole industry is changing? Because I know that's something that you've been really been, been paying a lot of attention to.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, I think the biggest trend that I am seeing the most is this desire to diversify. It is the desire to diversify our income streams.
It is our desire to provide services in a new and in a different way. It is truly the biggest trend I think that we're seeing in our industry. And it is probably one of the biggest shifts that we've seen in a really, really long time, because your therapist is not just the underground therapist that you can only pay with a paper check anymore.
You know, that, that is not what therapy looks like. And I think this is really connected to why some of the schools are having such a difficult time because what therapy is, is real changing and the demands are changing, the needs are changing. And also. The other trend that I'm seeing is that, and this is going to be controversial, so, you know, if you already sent me an email about what I've said that's controversial, get ready because you're going to send another one.
Okay. The other thing that I think is, is a trend that I'm seeing now is that people do not want to unpack the trauma. People don't always want to go and sit in therapy for three, four, five years, unpacking, resolving. So, People want to get up and go, people need to get up and go, people need to get up and feed their kids and go to the store and wash your hair and go to work yourself and make sure someone took out the dog.
We need to do that. People do not want to always unpack. And so it leaves therapists in a funny spot because what do we do with that? We still know that we have to help people because they still do need the support. So how do we help that person go from A to B without without really saying in order for you to be successful here, you have to really commit and unpack every single detail.
Sometimes we don't have to unpack every small little piece of trauma. Sometimes we need to keep going.
Gordon: Yes, yes, I think you're, I think there's a lot of truth in that because I think people people have their own journey with with all of that stuff, and I think you know, I think a lot of unpacking I think of stuff for people also occurs outside the therapy room where they just have these aha moments just in regular life.
You know, and it's not like they'd have to have somebody to make them go through every little detail of things. So
Dr. Liz: I'm going to, by the way, I'm going to leave you in our, in our listeners with a coaching skill right now, because you know what, in my business, I coach, I also teach people how to coach. And one of the reasons I teach people how to coach, I teach master's level clinicians.
How to coach, how to coach well, how to coach ethically. But one of the biggest reasons that I, that I do that is because there is that demand for quicker work. There really is a demand for that work where you're able to to help someone get from A to B without having to unpack every single piece because people don't have time and they might not have the desire.
Now, I also want to say it doesn't mean that coaching is replacing therapy. There's a time and place for both. But one of my favorite coaching skills is how we end a session. And we always ask the coaching client, what is something that you want to think about? This week. What's something you want to think about?
Maybe there's a mindset you want to think about. Maybe there's an idea you want to think about. That's number one. Number two is what's, what is something that you want to reflect on? Where can reflection take place around? What would you like to reflect on the third piece? Of course, because it's coaching as always, what do you want to take action around?
So when you say that, that it's, that it's those in between moments. It's one of my favorite coaching skills because we know, and we know this too, as consumers that we leave that room, whether it's a therapy room or whether it's a coaching room and there is magic that happens in between. So anyway, if you're listening to this or even you, Gordon, if you want to borrow that, it's yours.
By the way, I didn't make it up. It's evidence based practice from the ICF, but we're always asking, what do you want to think about this week? What do you want to reflect on? How do you want to take action this week? Because we know that people are only with us for a short amount of time and then they're going to live their lives.
So we were setting them up for
Gordon: that. Right, right. Yeah. Well, Liz, this has just been so much fun to talk with you. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you to find out more and that sort of thing. Absolutely.
Dr. Liz: I live over at lizlasky. com. L I Z L A S K Y. com. If you're interested in learning how to coach, I have a very fun freebie over at my website that you can sign on at lizlasky.
com. It is 101 coaching questions. So if you're interested in it, go download those. questions. Start weaving now. See if you like it. to learn how to coach and to get coached. Also importantly and come see because dropping march 25 the 2024 therapist, 21 wa want in business and entre Do not sleep on this summit.
Honestly, we have, we even have some goodies. We're giving away almost 21 freebies, 21 goodies that are in, in here. There's also an option to join us for a master class. There's lots of options for freebies from the gifts from gifts from the guests, I should say. So this really, this is an incredible, incredible summit.
There is no way that you're going to leave the summit without learning something and without some inspiration. So I hope people will be able to join us for that. It's free. And it's really, it's incredible, incredible interviews.
Gordon: Awesome. Awesome. I'm looking forward to hearing it. Well, Liz, thanks. And we'll have all these things in the show notes for people to get to quickly, and I'm sure we'll be talking again.
So thanks again for being on this episode. Thank you.