The Practice of Therapy

Dyna Tucker: Absolutely. Hi, I am Dyna Tucker and I am here on Practice of Therapy to talk about private practice ownership.
Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm happy for you. I, I, I'm really happy for you to get to know Diana Tucker. Welcome Diana.
Dyna Tucker: Hi. I am happy to be here.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. And so Diana had reached out to me about being on the podcast and like I. I was telling her before we started recording as we were just kind of chatting.
You know, I love hearing people's stories and how they, how they've gone into private practice and what the journey has been like. And that's going to be basically what we're going to talk about today. But maybe a good starting place, Dinah, is tell folks a little more about yourself. And as I like to say, Okay.
How you've landed where you've landed
Dyna Tucker: stores. So I am a licensed clinical social worker. I've been in the field of social work for probably over 13 years nearing 14 years. In all various. areas of social work. So I initially started, I've worked in foster care. I worked in criminal justice for a while working with alternatives, different alternatives to incarceration programs.
Also worked for the city doing trainings on mental health and all the things that affect students and parents and, and how that affects how students show up in the classroom. And around, I would say 20. 18 2017 end of 2017 2018 started to venture into private practice. I kind of was, you know, working for myself on the side a little bit and also working for a private practice.
While I was working for the city and so kind of doing both at the same time. As my own practice started to grow had to kind of make the decision of like, okay, what are we doing, right? Are we going to go full force with this or are we going to kind of stick this to the side hustle? And I decided to take the leap.
So in, in 2020, in January, after kind of talking to my husband and like, okay, are we going to do this? Decided to take the jump into full time private practice. And Quit my job with the city at the beginning of March 2020. Then two weeks later, the pandemic hit. And so
Gordon Brewer: I was just thinking that as you were telling that story.
Yeah. Yeah. Later,
Dyna Tucker: the pandemic hit. And so there was a whole lot of uncertainty already, you know, kind of going full time into private practice. There were a lot of fears of like not having a paycheck. And your pay being directly to your work, right? If you don't work, you don't get paid. So there was a lot of fear there.
And so we, you know, I kind of decided I jumped right into it. I had the, my clients that I had had from you know, before and the pandemic, as we all know, really. pushed mental health into the forefront, right? And so a lot of, we saw a lot of people become affected and not just individuals, what also happened a lot where relationships were struggling, right?
And as a couples therapist by specialty I started to get a lot more referrals, right? For for married couples and, you know, just couples in general. Who are really struggling with this time. So by the end of 2020, with all of the kind of referrals that I had, which most of my referrals were word of mouth, right, just clients that I had who then referred me to others who referred me to others.
I started to, you know, build a little bit of a wait list. And so in 2021, I decided to expand and brought on to associate clinicians.
And that was kind of the beginning of, you know, Tucker group. And. So we, you know, brought on, I brought on those two clinicians and Towards the ending of 2021. Another colleague of mine who had also taken the jump.
We decided to get an office space together once things started to kind of lift right in the world started to go back and we started to see more. People wanting in person, right? So we decided to get an office space. And that was 2021. So now we are what, three years later. And I have about 12 to 13 clinicians, a mixture of LM, you know, of MS, of social workers, mental health, counselors marriage and family therapists, as well as interns ranging from all three disciplines as well.
So it's been quite the journey.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I love, I love that. And yeah, you know, as you were telling about that, it reminds me a lot of kind of how I got into private practice too, was working for an agency and working at foster care and all of that kind of fun stuff. And and then started doing kind of some work on the, on the side, so to speak, doing private practice work, and I think, you know, I think for people out there that might be considering private practice, I think that is a good way to maybe move your way into it, and I think the fact that you had a client base going right into the pandemic probably saved you a good bit.
Dyna Tucker: Absolutely. Absolutely. The clients that I had, you know, as I said, I had already started, I had already made the decision to go full time private practice because of, you know, the client base that I had. And so the pandemic kind of going into that that only increased. Right? Like, you know, we only, we were only able to grow from there.
And I 100 percent agree with you. I tell anybody who's going into private practice start off small, right? Have your full time job start off small, grow and plan. Most importantly, right? Plan financially. If you have a partner, like, you have to have that conversation because it can be a very big financial adjustment.
Right? And so with planning, you try to minimize that as much as possible.
Gordon Brewer: Mm hmm. Yes, yes. I, I totally agree. And I, you know, I'm curious what how did you end up making that decision whether to leave, you know, leave the agency work and that sort of thing and move into private practice? Because I know, at least if I can remember way back when I did that, that was a scary proposition.
Mm hmm. To think about leaving the steady, a steady job with a salary and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, moving into being a business owner.
Dyna Tucker: Yeah, it was extremely scary. It was extremely scary, but my, you know, the private practice work that I was doing on the side was growing so much that it, like I had to make a decision.
Right. I had to either go full force with it and take the chance or cut it back and, you know, maintain my full time job. It be, it be, it became too much juggling both doing my full time job, doing private practice on the side, still working for a private practice, you know,
On its own. And then, you know, I'm a mom of two.
Right. I'm a wife. So like doing all of those things, it just became too much. And I had to kind of make the decision of like, well, what are my long term goals? Is this something that I want to do long term and, and if it's now or never.
Gordon Brewer: How did you, how did you kind of prepare yourself financially for it as you, as you moved into that?
Dyna Tucker: Yeah. So one of the main things that I did was I started saving. Right, saving as much as I can to kind of have a little bit of a, of a nest egg. And I want to say that I definitely think the pandemic helped a lot with things going fully virtual because that, that really cut back.
On expenses, right? Because at the time I was paying for an office space. And then once the pandemic happened, everything being virtual, it really, you know, kind of took away like really the only thing that I'm paying for is in the HR at this point in a telehealth platform, right? So that kind of helped a lot.
But really trying to save, put aside as much money, making sure that I have enough to cover my monthly expenses, and then figuring out Financially, looking at my caseload and figuring out, okay, what, what number do I have to hit? Weekly in order to supplement the income that I was getting before.
Right. And I think that is, that's probably the most important kind of financial groundwork that I think a lot of times we go, people may go into private practice, but they don't, they don't work out the numbers, right. And then, so you don't know what, what's your, what's your bottom line. You don't know what number you have to hit.
How many sessions do you have to hit weekly in order to make your monthly expenses. Right. And then checking back on that every week, like at the end of the week, having that running tally of, okay, this is where I'm at. This is what I need to hit by the end of the month.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. That and that, that is so smart because as you describe it, that was kind of my same process and of course, I'm, I'm a dinosaur in this whole industry.
You know, back, I remember that of just really figuring out. Okay. What do I need in order to replace replace my salary for what the job I was in Also pay the taxes pay the overhead all of that and you add all that up and then you look at okay Divide that by the number of sessions that I anticipate having per week and what I can charge for them and all of that Always call that work it kind of working backwards kind of figuring out the figuring out the numbers, but that you, you were so smart to do it that way.
And I, I would add to Dinah, and it sounds like you probably did this too. I know when I started thinking about making that transition from kind of part time private practice into full time private practice, one of the things I did is I, I set a date at which I was going to do that. And I made it like a, I was, you know, I put it a year out.
And I took every bit of money, or pretty much every bit of money that I was making in my private practice and stuck it away in a savings account. And that was going to be my nest egg or my buffer for when I started practice. And so I knew that I had enough money there to where I could go six months if I had to without seeing a single client and have enough money to survive.
And so that I don't know if you did something similar. Yes.
Dyna Tucker: Oh, yeah, definitely. This, like I said, this was a long process in terms of making the decision to go full time. Once I started to see that, okay. This is not what I'm doing right now is not sustainable. And we gotta, you know, we have to figure out where we're going with this.
The preparation started, right, the saving started of making sure that this is the goal. So the goal is going to be by March of 2020 of 2020. So then we need to be able to prepare as much as we can in that time.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, that's, and that's yeah. That's a, that was such a wise move on your part. So, and I know that you, as we were chatting about before we started recording, one of the things that you're starting to get you like me, same thing that happened to me is started having a lot of people asking you about how to go into private practice.
They saw that you were doing it and being successful. And so tell us a little more about what you do with people around all of that. And Yeah,
Dyna Tucker: so when I'm working with clients coaching clients, right who are working on either starting their own practice or growing their practice, or even kind of rebranding a practice that they already have, right?
It's very individualized. It's very much based off of what are their needs at that time. And so that's one of the first things that I talk to them about is what are your needs, right? What do you hope to do? And then kind of looking at where they are in the process. Right? So, for example, I'm currently working with a coaching client who, right now, she already had a private practice set up, right?
But it wasn't really, it wasn't really branded, it wasn't really, you know, niched, like she was just kind of like doing it because she had been doing it for a very long time but was looking to kind of market herself more, right? And so the, a lot of the work that I do, that I did with her at the very beginning, was Was figuring out who is her client base, right?
Like who, if we're going to market you, we have to then market you to the people that you want, that the clients that you want, right? And so a lot of the work that we start there is thinking about things like who are the clients that you enjoy working with? Who are the clients you don't enjoy working with, right?
If you can think about, you know, your success stories with clients, who were those clients? What were they? What did they look like? Demographics, you know, gender age range, profession, the issues that they were coming with. What were all of those things, right? And that's how we then figure out who are the clients that you want.
And so we can start to develop language that will attract those clients. Right. My biggest thing in private practice especially with the clinicians that I work with and with my interns, I wholeheartedly believe that private practice should be enjoyable, right? Like, and I've done so much mandated counseling in my time, right?
That I did not want private practice to be another space where I don't feel like I'm working with the clients that I'm being my best therapist. So, yes.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. And that, yeah. You know, and so I,
Dyna Tucker: that's where we start first because you want to attract those clients. Cause you want to, you want to enjoy the work that you're doing.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. And it's something that a theme that I, you know, people hear all the time on this podcast is that the importance of finding a niche and finding something that is mean brings meaning to you, number one, and that you know, and that you enjoy those people. Because I think the fear is for a lot of people is that you've got to cast a wide net to, to get all these clients, but the truth of the matter is when somebody is looking for a therapist, they're looking for a therapist that they know can help them with a specific issue.
And so that, that's the reason for niching and that, and that sort of thing. So, yeah.
Dyna Tucker: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of times people come to me and they don't know what their niche is. Right.
Speaker 4: And
Dyna Tucker: so that's how we get into those conversations of like, well, let's think about the people that you enjoy working with.
Because I think when you enjoy working with the client, you also do your best work. Right. Like you show up the best that you can and you feel like the relationship that you're developing with this client that there is actual work being done here. Right. As opposed to like, like I said, a lot of the work that I have done, which is like, you know, mandated therapy and you got to like get people to buy in before the work can really begin, you know, that's, that's a lot.
And, and, you know, you don't want private practice to be that. So really finding your identity. Identity as a clinician and finding what your niche is is a lot of the original work. And then once we have the wording, right, of like people that you want to work with and being able to attract those people, then we start with the marketing, right?
Then you gotta, you know, you need headshots. You want to look at, okay, are there listings and directories For the type of clients that you're looking for, right?
And the type of clinician that you are, right? So for example, I'm a clinician of color and so I am on, you know, directories for clinicians of color, right?
And you have to, you have to be able to find, you know, the different avenues that are already there created for you to market yourself.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, I always think of marketing is, is that you go. You go to the places where you know, your ideal clients are going and then you You just simply communicate to them how you can help them And it's it doesn't have to be salesy or convincing or you know in that in that sense that you because the people are out There that are looking for help and it's just a matter of Make making sure they can find you.
Dyna Tucker: Absolutely. There are enough people in this world for every single clinician That is out there to fill their caseload, right? World is bad, right? And so that is very important and I love what you said about not it doesn't have to be salesy because I'm super against that Right? Like, I don't want to convince you to work with me, right?
I want you to feel like, you know, that what I'm saying is connecting with you and you feel like this is going to be a good experience.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Well, a couple of, couple of the things I was curious about Dinah was number one you work primarily with couples, I think you said, and I do a lot of couples work as well.
I'm an MFT. So that's kind of. We got a little bit my training out, but what was it that drew you to working with couples versus doing solo? I mean, Working with individuals more. I know you work with individuals as well. Yeah.
Dyna Tucker: So I started my work with couples around I want to say 2015, 2016, right?
2016. I started my work with couples and I was working at a private practice at the time. And I just really found that I was drawn to one individuals who were coming in with relationship Type issues, right? And realizing as I was working with the individuals who are in therapy that if you still have a partner that we're only doing half the work here.
Right. Because you know, we're, you're, you're only one half of the relationship. And so as I started to get more couples, clients really found that I was enjoying it. So I kind of went back and did an advanced certificate in marriage and family therapy with a couple specialization and, coursework.
Right. Because I was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I want to go back and get like the. you know, formal training for it. And so that kind of started my journey into couples work and I just really found that I really enjoyed it. Couples work as I have heard often is very polarizing. People either love it or they hate it.
And you know, when it comes to the clinicians at my practice, I kind of tell them at one point or another, you are going to work with a couple. Right. And then, you know, once you get over the fear of having two people in the room as opposed to one then you can kind of sort of decide whether you like it or not.
Right. You know, I provide a lot of guidance. But you know, one of the things that I really impart to my clinicians is that I want you to leave my practice being able to work with any population, right? Being able to work with whoever, but also knowing who your population is,
Gordon Brewer: right? Very valid point.
And it's yeah, I would, I would concur, you know, with what you said earlier about there's, you know, working with individuals, there's always. Because if you think about it, the majority of the issues that people are having in their lives involve other people.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, and so that's a, you know, it's what brings them to therapy and that they're just having trouble relating to others.
And so I think that's, yeah. Yeah. Of course, that's my, that's my systemic nature, too, of just way of thinking about, you know, You know, couples work and that sort of thing. Yeah,
Dyna Tucker: absolutely. And when you're working with the individual, there's only but so much work that we can do right without bringing in the other half of the relationship, right?
Speaker 4: And
Dyna Tucker: I absolutely believe that doing your own individual work is paramount, right? Because it oftentimes, even in couples work, sometimes the couple's work can't continue. Until the individuals get their own individual there.
Speaker 4: Right.
Dyna Tucker: And oftentimes what, what I would, what I recommend and what happens a lot at my practice is, you know, one clinician will be seeing the couple and then each individual in a couple might be seeing, you know, a different clinician.
And that's so that like we can kind of be hitting it at all points so that people are able to work on their individual stuff so that they can show up in couples therapy for the couple stuff.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah, that's a. That's to me, I didn't mean for us to get too far down a rabbit trail talking about, specifically about couples therapy, but you're, you're exactly right.
And I think, you know, people people out there listening, I think, you know, I think people are intimidated by couples work, but when you really kind of, like you said, get the training for it and understand how working with couples is different than working with individuals. But once I, at least for me, once you kind of understand the being able to kind of think systemically about things and think about the process of what's going on, not the content of what's going on.
It makes it, makes it much easier. And I, you know, I love working with couples for that reason. Yeah, looking at that. Well, one other quick question here, Dana, before we kind of close, close out. I know you said you, you moved you started kind of solo and then you added more people. What sort of structure do you have within your practice now?
In other words, are you using contractors or employees and or how did you, how did you make those decisions? Yeah.
Dyna Tucker: Yeah. So that's that's very interesting and that's a very good question. I think when I One of the things that I also love to do is, is provide supervision, right? Supervision is one of my loves.
I love working with clinicians on helping them just kind of grow into like who they are as a clinician. And And just helping them kind of put theory to practice, right? And what that looks like, you know, learning the stuff at school, but you know, what it looks like in the room with an actual client.
And so the first two clinicians that I added on were associate therapists, right? So they were LMSWs, pre licensed, you know. I guess pre licensed to the C. And so most of my clinicians are either limited permit or limited permit MHCs or MFTs or LMSWs. And then I also have interns. And so I, I kind of decided to go that route, mainly because you know, like I said, I really enjoy supervision
Speaker 4: and,
Dyna Tucker: You know, for me bringing, which they are like W2 employees because, you know, because I provide that supervision as opposed to contractors.
And that's mainly because I wanted to have a little bit more structure on like what's happening in, you know, in the practice. When you have contractors, it's. There's kind of like a lot of, you know, stuff that you're, you have to be hands off about and that just didn't feel comfortable for me as a, as a new practice owner at the time.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, those are all the, I know that's a whole other, that's a whole other show just thinking about you know, just whether to go W2s or contractors and that sort of thing. In fact, I probably need to do another episode on that because that question comes up a lot when people are moving into group work.
And I think Yeah, just looking at, you know, just thinking about compensation and all of that kind of stuff and how you pay them and all that sort of thing. How did you, how did you land on a method for that when you're practicing? You do like a, do like a fee split kind of thing or a salary or? Or flat fee or Right there.
Yeah.
Dyna Tucker: Yeah. So I have a flat fee. And compensation did play a big role into whether I, you know, making the decision to go W2 versus contractors. So a couple of things, right? And I always tell people when you're thinking about growing and you're thinking about, okay, do I do W2, do I do contractors?
I think you have to contemplate. Where you're at in terms of the energy that you can give to another person,
Speaker 4: right?
Dyna Tucker: And if you're in a place where, you know, maybe for you, you don't want to, you don't have the time to do the training, right? You don't have the time to do like the supervision. Then maybe bringing on a contractor who can be a little bit more independent, right?
Might be better for you. Right, but then you also have to think about compensation because you're going to pay a contractor a little bit more than you're going to pay like a pre licensed clinician, right? So those are all of the things to consider and as well as my practice takes insurance, right? As we know, insurance reimbursement rates are not that great.
It's
so So that also factors into compensation, right? That puts a very big limit on what I can offer a clinician coming in just pretty much off the bat. And it kind of, for me, puts a ceiling on what I can pay a clinician because insurance rates are never going to increase, right? Well, I won't say never, but they very rarely increase.
And when they do increase, right? You know, it takes a minute, right?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, right. And, and that doesn't mean, and because my, my practice is an insurance based practice, that doesn't mean that you can't have a lucrative and profitable practice. Yeah. Yeah. You just have to structure it. You have to structure it differently.
There are more wheels and knobs to it, as I like to say, you know, that you have to, you have to manage, but I think you have to look at your The demographics of your area the the clients that you serve and absolutely thing and it's a it's a trade off At least in my mind of making the decision with With insurance based practices, you don't have to spend a lot of time in marketing there's a steady flow of clients from insurance whereas cash based practices have to put a lot of money into Marketing the practice and educating people on the front end of that That sort of thing.
So it's a matter of you know, I guess choose your, choose your poison. Yeah. So well, well, Dana, yeah, I have to be respectful of your time and I really enjoyed our conversation. And yeah. So tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they want to learn more about your coaching and all of that sort of thing.
Dyna Tucker: Yeah. So I am on all social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook Tucker Group Practice or Prospering Practice Coaching. You can also look up my website tuckergrouppractice. com. That is the that's the group practice website. Contact information is there as well. Yeah, those would probably be the best ways to reach me.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Awesome. And we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary for people to find that easily. Well, well, Dana, I really enjoyed our conversation and hopefully we can get you back on the show again.
Dyna Tucker: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation as well, and I would love to be back.