The Practice of Therapy

Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast, and I'm really happy for you to get to know today Linzy Bonham.
And Linzy also has a podcast, and I'm gonna give her a chance to talk about that. But Linzy, as I talk, as I start with everyone, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Linzy Bonham: Yeah, so I am based in Ontario as we chatted about before we started recording. So I'm a Canadian social worker by training turned financial coach therapist educator for therapists.
So I was a trauma therapist in private practice. Loved that work. But when I stepped into private practice, found that nobody was talking about money, and I was so hungry and eager and I was like, wait, where's. Where's the information on how I save the right amount for taxes and how I file my receipts?
You know, I came into private practice, really hungry for that information and found it just wasn't out there. So on the side of my, off the side of my desk as a complex trauma therapist, I started helping my colleagues. With the financial part of their practice. And then eventually I built my course Money Skills for Therapists in 2018.
And since 2020, that is what I've been doing full-time. I've stopped being a therapist. I am retired, which is always fun to say. Mm-hmm. When you're well below retirement age, and now I focus entirely on helping. Therapists in private practice and group practice owners with the financial side of running a practice.
Wow.
Gordon Brewer: Wow. Yeah. That's a, that's a big move. And I know I've, I've had conversations with other, other folks that have, you know, kinda left the therapy world or not, not left it completely use it. There's a tie to it in some way. Mm-hmm. But yeah, maybe we can, we can chat about that. But I know one of the big things that we wanted to try to, tackle today is just our money mindset and how it can really affect us as therapists and particularly in private practice. And I know people have heard from me on this podcast just a little bit more about that, but tell us kind of your take on kind of our money mindset and just what you've learned in the work that you've been doing.
Linzy Bonham: Yeah. You know, when I started teaching. Finances to therapists in 2018. I, my initial thought was that I needed to teach them spreadsheets which is true. We do need to learn spreadsheets. But what I very quickly discovered, Gordon, is like in the way of being able to learn these financial skills and to develop the financial literacy.
Are all of these stories and emotions and experiences, all this programming that we have that makes it really hard to learn. So what I have found with therapists is the, the mindset pieces around money. Our emotional relationship to it can be so. Strong, so negative that they actually interfere with our ability to learn and function in the financial space.
So you end up with therapists who are so smart, they might have PhDs. They've done so much to earn their licenses. They do incredibly complex therapy work. They're brilliant people who go into a shutdown when they try to think about how much they need to save for taxes, right? And go into these more basically trauma kind of responses around money.
Because money is so loaded and so stressful. Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's many, many reasons for this. And, and we can dig into that, but I do find that a therapist who does not have a lot of stress and baggage around money is a rare creature.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think that is?
Linzy Bonham: There's a few layers to it.
I think that part of it is that. Generally speaking, as therapists, we are accidental business owners. You know, we go into private practice because we want to be able to like serve our folks in our way. I know that's why I went to private practice. I was getting out of somewhere, getting out of an agency culture that I was like, this place is killing me.
I can't stay here. I wanted to be able to serve the people I wanted to work with in my own way. Then in doing so, I had to, I had a business all of a sudden. So generally speaking, therapists are not people who, you know, read business books in advance, have an MBA as well. Some of them exist, but they're very rare.
We usually end up accidentally owning businesses, which means we have, we have no education in this area. Right. And there's a general lack of education and conversation about money in our society. In general. Right, right. Very few of us get actual purposeful financial education from our parents. We don't learn this in elementary school.
We don't learn this in high school. And then you go into your professional training, you know, whatever niche of therapy, whatever zone you're in, we don't get training there either. So we actually end up in an area where we're completely. Still equipped. We have no training. And then we're expected to know how money works.
So that's part of it. Mm-hmm. But then the other layer on top of that lack of education is all the negative messages that we get about money as kind of helper, healer type people, as therapists, as you know, that person who's always been taking care of everyone around us as it is. So I generally find most therapists.
My theory is that most therapists have been practicing therapy long before they were licensed. You know, we were usually like that person, you know, in the, in the corner of the party talking to somebody about their relationship with their dad. You know, like the first time I was called the therapist, I was 12 years old.
My friend at the time said like, oh, you're my therapist. And I was like, I remember thinking that's bad. I don't think that's how friendship is supposed to be, but usually we've been giving away these services for free for our whole lives. Before we go into the field. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So also we, we have already had the experience of doing this for free, giving too much of ourselves, being overly sacrificing, and then we step into having this as part of.
The way that we are earning money, and suddenly we have to start valuing it and attaching a dollar amount to it. And that's a huge leap that we have to make. There's a lot of stories that have to be undone to be able to do that work.
Gordon Brewer: Right. Right. And I think one myth that, you know, I, I, I know I had to overcome early on in my career is the, just thinking about if I, if I receive money for what I'm doing for someone.
Then am I really helping? Mm-hmm. And I think that's just a total, total myth. And I, I was, I was sharing with Linzy before we started recording, I, I consider myself a, a recovering people pleaser. And that's been a, a focus of my my own therapy here lately. Mm-hmm. But, yeah, and I think, I think it's, it can be, it can be misplaced and I think that it can kinda really hold us back in being successful and, and really.
Kind of can stifle our ability to truly help people.
Linzy Bonham: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean that, that people pleasing element is huge. And then I would say even layered on top of that too, we then get additional stories about money that we inherit from our families, right? Yes. So, so rarely have I met somebody who's like, yes.
My parents were very clear and purposeful in how they taught us about money and they taught us all these skills and usually what we've inherited from family is. Observations that we've made. You know, there's this saying that children are excellent observers, lousy interpreters, right? So we see something happening, we make meaning of it.
We hear the, the phrases that our parents say around money, like money doesn't grow on trees, or we don't have the money for that. Or we see our parents' behaviors of acting like the family has no money and then suddenly going out and spending a ton of money. And we also get this whole. Bag of baggage.
Mm-hmm. A whole suitcase, if you will, of baggage from our families too. That is then layered on top of this lack of education and this natural caregiving, self-sacrificing way. And then you can throw an identity factors in there too about, you know, women and what they're supposed to earn. If you're a person of color, are you supposed to earn money?
Like all these other messages. We've all got just like a whole tangle of stories that we're dealing with. Right. Many of which are often contradictory. Right. But still run us under the surface.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. It's a, yeah. You know, I was just reflecting as you were, you were mentioning that just one of the messages I, I kind of received from my family was, is that you.
To get money. It was more about luck or good fortune or, you know, you you know, if you, if you had money, it was maybe that it was you were to be shamed in some way mm-hmm. Or that, that sort of thing. And so mm-hmm. You know, and that's yeah, that's, that's something that yeah. Yeah. We all have to kinda look at and overcome.
Yes. And yes. Yeah.
Linzy Bonham: Yeah. And there are so many layers to these stories, Gordon, that
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Linzy Bonham: They come up to years into doing your money work a new story, surfaces in a new way, or mm-hmm. Or maybe you have changed and suddenly you are that person who's earning a lot of money. Mm-hmm. You know, and so these stories come up suddenly in this new way.
'cause it's like, oh, now I am that person that my family judged. Yeah. Right, right. And then often too, we're also navigating relationships with families. Or partners who then have their own stories too. So as you change your money story, how does your family react to that? How do you, how do your friends react right to you?
Starting to maybe earn more money? Not be ashamed about money, charge more. You know, I remember mm-hmm. When I raised my fee to $150 an hour. Mm-hmm. Having a friend whose face was just pure judgment. Right. Like they could not disguise when I told them my new fee, that they were just kind of appalled.
Right. Right. And then you have to kind of hold your own uhhuh against other people's money stories too.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. And I, you know in your work with, with other therapists around, around money and really kind of getting out their head around it, where, where do you see that people have, or maybe, I'm trying to think how to ask this question.
Where do you see that people really bega begin to be transformed when they change a mindset of some sort?
Linzy Bonham: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the mindset piece in the work that I do with folks in my, my course around this money skills for therapists, we start with that first, right? And what I find with those different money stories is some of them shift fairly easily.
Once we identify them. We're like, oh, that's, that's my dad's story. That's not my story. I don't wanna believe that. Mm-hmm. Some of these stories we can let go of fairly quickly and others are like more deeply lodged in, you know, our nervous systems or our psyches, however, you know, whatever language you wanna use to think about it.
And so what I have found is with overcoming these stories, there is a blend of a little bit of. Awareness goes a long way. Fake it till you make it, you know, raise your fee and realize that people don't actually scream at you. You're not actually like run outta town. Everything's actually fine. Your clients say Good for you.
I've been wondering when you're gonna raise your fee, you know, let yourself have these new experiences. But then there's the, the kind of third. Box of money stories that actually require therapy, right? Mm-hmm. And that are much more deeply embedded and mm-hmm. You know, that we need to take to trauma therapy and that we need to approach with, I think, respect, mm-hmm.
And, and compassion and gentleness. And so what I find is we all carry. Kind of each of these three boxes in us. So as people start to do the work, there's some things that start to shift quickly and they, they have faster relief. There's other things that they have to work on kind of over time that gradually they're unwaning.
Mm-hmm. And then there's that, that second category of like, yeah, I've actually been charging my new fee for a long time. Or, Hey, look at me. I'm like putting money away for taxes. Maybe I am somebody who can save enough for taxes. Yeah. So it really is this gradual transformation. And sometimes people get that fast relief of you let go of something that feels terrible and you're like, I feel a hundred pounds lighter right away.
Right. And then other times there's like those things that linger. So it really is like self work and you know, I think comes with all of the complexities and self setbacks and ups and downs, mm-hmm. That healing has. Right. Healing is not linear.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, right, right. You know what one of the, the areas I know that was transformational for me early on in my, move into private practice, which I'm not gonna state how long that is. So Ben, but one, one of the, one of the things was really understanding the concept of return on investment. And that I think a lot of us. Probably grew up with a scarcity mindset around money and that okay, if I pay money for this, then I'll no longer have that money.
Mm-hmm. And that you know, it's just money is lost by putting it into that. Mm-hmm. And so many times I hear from people, oh, I, it's just too expensive. Yeah. Or I, I just can't, I can't afford that.
Linzy Bonham: Yes.
Gordon Brewer: And. I think what a big shift is being able to recognize, no, you can't you can't afford not to do some of these things.
So you wanna say more about that kind of way of thinking? Yeah,
Linzy Bonham: yeah. I mean, the return on investment is a, a really important concept 'cause I think. Also too, again, when we haven't had education around business, we might be used to thinking about money more in that like personal consumer way, you know?
And we might have heard the messages from our parents of like, well, if we spend that here, we don't have that there. Which is true, right? But when you are in a business, you are building a machine that can generate more money, right? Mm-hmm. And part of making that machine work well is we need to invest in it.
Right. We need to put money in, we need to create great marketing so that our right cl, our right fit clients can find us, right? So with return on investment. Something that I, I actually have developed a tool around this which I do workshops with sometimes 'cause it's such a huge topic. I see two, two parts to return on investment.
One is that emotional piece and one is the actual numbers. And this is generally how I approach money overall. Mm-hmm. Gordon. 'cause it's like if we don't do the emotional piece first, there's so much noise there that sometimes it's hard to know. So. When I walk through folks, the process of thinking about return on investment, the first thing that we do is get clear on the emotions that are there, right?
As you're thinking about this investment, like what's coming up for you? What's driving you to think about making this investment? Do you wanna invest in this course because your friend is doing it and you'd like to do it with her, but the timing's actually kind of bad for you, right? Do you wanna invest in this person because.
They're kind of pressuring you and you just wanna please them. Like, just really slowing down to notice what's there. Do you wanna invest in this because it's something you've known you need to do for a really long time, right? And it's strategic. Does it align with what you actually to do in your business?
So letting yourself name the emotions that are there for you, the kind of external factors. What, what kind of pressures are coming from outside? So like internal. Pressures are from inside, external pressures from the outside. And then, you know, is this really what you need in your business right now? You know?
Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's not, but sometimes it really is. Right? Right. So, if it is something that you're like, no, this is a problem I've been needing to solve for a long time. This is a container that makes sense for me. Either like, this is a coach that I like, or this is a way of learning that works for me.
Or this is a kind of service that I know I've succeeded with in the past. If it's all a go, then you can think about actual numbers, right? Mm-hmm. So, okay, I'm gonna spend. $2,000 on this new website, let's say, if that website helps me to attract my right clit, I keep saying I'm so sorry. Mm-hmm. Right, right.
Fit clients. Yeah. If this website helps me to attract my right fit clients, and let's say reasonably having a really great, wonderful website that's SEO optimized, puts me on the first page, gets me 10 new clients that I went before. What is the value of those clients to me over the course of a year?
Right. And then how much am I actually paying for that? What is the return on investment? Mm-hmm. If I get, mm-hmm. You know, I, if a client is worth $2,000 for me in a year, I get 10 of those. Now I'm talking about $20,000. I've paid 2000 for this website. I just got a 10 times return on investment. I put in 2000.
Mm-hmm. I got back 20 that I wouldn't have recently got. Now you can do actual math. Right? Right. But usually I find that as therapists we need to like ground in the emotions. And as you mentioned, like if you start to think about, okay, I really wanna invest in this thing, but I don't have enough money, slow down.
It's like, is that a story that you have a lot? Is that what you always heard your mom say when you had to make an investment? Mm-hmm. Like when the family had to make a financial decision, then again, you can name Okay, there's that scarcity. If I let the scarcity step aside. Is this an investment that actually makes sense for my business?
Right. Right. Now you can start to approach it from like what an IFS, they would call more of like your core self, you know, like wise mind, you know, choose your modality, however you wanna think about it. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Linzy Bonham: Yeah. But now you're making a balanced, grounded decision rather than just going into those knee jerk old money stories that are not strategic and are not gonna help you in your business.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. You know, I think one of the, I think one of the aha moments I had early on in my. When I started into private practice as a solo practitioner, before I started my group practice was investing in something as simple as Psychology Today directory. Mm-hmm. And yet, you know, I don't know if I read it or what I, but it the, you know, this is just a really simple basic example.
If I pay $30 a month for this directory assistant and I get just one client from that, it more than pays for itself. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And, and so being, being able to, to think about things in that way.
Linzy Bonham: Yes.
Gordon Brewer: You know, and I think even, you know, kind of a, as I like to say, a low hanging fruit for people.
And this is really more people that are maybe solo practitioners that are looking to scale and looking to kind of go to the next level. Is hiring an assistant of some sort. Yes,
Linzy Bonham: yes.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And, and I think that is, you know, well, I can't afford that. I take, can't afford what, but you, you have to really look at, okay, what are you losing by not.
Hiring an assistant.
Linzy Bonham: That is one of the ones I see folks have the biggest blocks around. Mm-hmm. I've, you know, I see this all the time, including with group practice owners who have several folks working for them, you know, who have just an insane amount of admin work. And my general take on an administrator is, is you can't afford not to.
Mm-hmm. Administrators are worth their weight in gold. You know, like a good va, a good admin and, you know, a, a simple. Equation on that one is just if you're paying an admin $20 an hour and your fee is $160 an hour, it's like. You work one hour and you can pay them for eight hours of work. Mm-hmm. Right?
Mm-hmm. So if we think about just that simple equation again of like, you know, trading your time for money, they're doing eight hours of work and honestly they're probably gonna do it better than you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And possibly faster than you. You see one more client and now there's eight hours of stuff that's been taken care of in your practice that you don't have to do.
That is immensely valuable.
Gordon Brewer: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it frees you up to see more clients. Yes, yes. And so instead of spending, you know, half a day returning phone calls or mm-hmm. Or trying to track people down and sending, you know, intake stuff. And Yeah. Absolutely. Worth its weight in gold. Yeah. Yeah.
Linzy Bonham: Yeah.
But I think, you know, I wonder if part of the, the barrier to that you know, as, as I think about, why is that so hard for therapists? I think therapists often we are the helper. Mm-hmm. We wanna help others. We're not used to being helped. And I think there's probably various flavors of that, whether it's that we think we don't deserve help, whether we think we're a failure, if we're getting help, we should be able to do it ourselves.
Like that hyper independence. Mm-hmm. But I do see that that is a common block that therapists tend to have, I think just because of the type of people we tend to be.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. And you know, I think what goes along with that and this is kind of a little bit of a tangent, but we, I know we had talked about it a little bit before we started recording, is, is recognizing when we need to be.
Very clear about, particularly in our group practice, about our expectations mm-hmm. Of the people that are working for us. Yes. Because we want to be nice. Yes, we want to be kind, all of those kinds of things. But a lot of times we just have to say, okay, this is how it's gotta be done.
Linzy Bonham: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah. And I see this with my group practice owners that I, I work with and I know you do too, where
Gordon Brewer: mm-hmm.
Linzy Bonham: The caretaking that maybe used to be about clients, where it's like, oh, I can't charge them that much money. They can't afford it, da da. Often when we get through that level mm-hmm.
And now we're charging a fee that you know it. Is a worthwhile fee for us. We've, we've overcome that. Mm-hmm. Then we bring on a team and then we just start doing the caretaking all over again. But now we do it with our team members instead of clients. So it's like new level, new devil. Mm-hmm. Here's this pattern again, that's gonna show up in a new, different way.
And I see that happen all, all the time with group practice owners.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and kinda keeping with that, that thought in your work with group practice owners, what what do, how do you help them work around talking with their staff about money
Linzy Bonham: mm-hmm. And
Gordon Brewer: the importance of, of all of that.
Linzy Bonham: Yeah. Well, the concept that's at the core of my group practice course, which is money skills for group practice owners, is the concept of financial leadership. So it's showing up as the leader you wanna be, values aligned, you know, staying connected to why you started this practice, who you serve, what are the values that the practice is upholding.
Balancing that with having financial clarity and literacy and being grounded in the numbers so the practice is sustainable. 'cause what I see with, with group practices so often is they are so tenuous. The numbers are not working right. So they're like mm-hmm. Maybe doing really well on serving people, taking care of people.
They built a great community and they're funding payroll from their personal bank account, right? Yes. So we have to balance these things. Mm-hmm. So in terms of those, those conversations with team, what I find in group practice owners need to have first is they need to have grounding and clarity around what, what are the boundaries?
What are the expectations? Mm-hmm. What is that drop deadline that I absolutely need you to work? 12 hours a week. Right? Yeah. Because they know now what it means if they go below it. One of the things that I have in that course is a tool, we call it team tool. Mm-hmm. And it allows you to look at each of your positions and understand is this position profitable for your business or is there money left behind from this role at the end of the month?
Or is this role actually losing money Right. For your business? Right. And once group practice owners see that, that can give them the grounding and clarity to start to have those. Clarifying conversations with their team of like, Hey, our agreement was that you're seeing 10 people, you're seeing seven.
Mm-hmm. I need you to see at least 10 as per our agreement. Mm-hmm. And if you start seeing 15, here's this incentive. To, to get you up to the 15 level. Right. Right. But what my folks talk about is just when you have that actual clarity with the numbers, you can have those conversations with such confidence because you're not guessing, you're not kind of going by feelings of like, it feels like you should be seeing more clients.
It feels like you shouldn't be taking so much vacation. Instead, you can give them actual numbers and guidance and like Clear is kind right When we can set clear expectations. Mm-hmm. We are allowing people to actually step up and meet them, or to let us know, you know what, I actually don't have the capacity to do this role.
Yeah. And I'm gonna move on to somewhere else.
Gordon Brewer: Right,
Linzy Bonham: right. We can actually, sometimes that ends up resulting in goodbyes, but usually they're goodbyes that needed to happen like a year ago.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. And you know, one of the, one of the mistakes I made early on in my, in my practice was particularly after I started my group practice, was paying my people too much.
And I know I've had this conversation, you, you probably familiar with Julie Harris at Green Oak Accounting and her book profit First for Therapist. And in fact, I think she, she does, she quotes me I uses this. Is one of the case examples in her book where I was actually paying my, you know, I just picked up a, a random number.
I said, oh, I'm gonna pay, pay my therapist X amount. This seems fair, this seems generous, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But the longer I did it, I really recognize, okay, I'm having trouble making payroll and I'm having to pay them out of what I produce. Yes. In order to make the. Make what I was paying them, and it was really doing them a di disservice because it wasn't sustainable and no, you know, I ended up losing a few people, but also it, it caused me to shift from being a con contractor based system to an employee based system and.
All the difference in the world and being able to, it was actually more profitable for me. And they actually ended up making more money in the long run too. Yes, yes. Because I've changed, changed the way I did things, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you wanna say maybe a little bit about that as well? Lindsey?
Yeah. Just about
Linzy Bonham: that fee split. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That is, I find the classic, classic mistake that group practice owners make to start is they. Pay their team too much. And it comes from all the right places, right? It's like mm-hmm. They've had their own bad experience of feeling exploited in a group.
You know, they, they've seen people getting underpaid. They wanna be that good boss. They wanna do it differently, right? Mm-hmm. Like so many of these choices come from just like the goodness of our hearts and reflect the fact that we're great people and we should be leaders. We should be in business.
Mm-hmm. Right? Because we are actually thinking about the wellbeing of our team. But I have almost never seen it. Where the first split or waged offer is actually sustainable,
Gordon Brewer: right?
Linzy Bonham: It's the tendency is to to over give. Mm-hmm. And you use the word generous and it makes me think about how, you know, we can be generous when.
We're stable. Right? We can be generous when things are sustainable. Yes, because then, then there's actually enough, right? Mm-hmm. When there's enough, we can give some more, right? Right. But when we start off by being generous, when we're kind of like pouring from an empty cup, as you say. Mm-hmm. We we're actually creating it so that there's this unsustainability.
Which does trickle down to your team, right? Like that? Yes. That affects how you could show up as a leader. You know, that like you're one week away from not being able to pay everybody and having to shut the doors. Mm-hmm. There's no way that is not impacting your team and the quality of service. Right.
And your ability to show up for them. Yeah. So, you know, we can absolutely be generous, but only once we've built a machine that actually works well. Right. And is gonna run for the long term.
Gordon Brewer: Right. And it creates a whole, whole atmosphere and a whole culture of scarcity. Yes. When, when you're doing that and Absolutely.
So that's, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Linzy, I, I've gotta be respectful of your time and I know we could probably spend all day. Talking about these things. Tell folks maybe some parting thoughts on this and how you, they can get in touch with you and, and talk about your podcast as well. Yeah,
Linzy Bonham: yeah. I mean, going back to where we started with money shame why therapists are so shamed.
You know, the, the biggest thing. Folks can do. Once you recognize that you have stuff around money is like start to connect with people around you. Like we know that shame, you know, doesn't withstand the light of day. Mm-hmm. You think you're the only one who feels this way. I can tell you as somebody who's worked with thousands of therapists, that you are absolutely not, right?
Mm-hmm. So getting that connection, like getting into resources like mine, you know, you're already listening to Gordon's podcast, which is. Great. Right. So like getting exposure to people talking about money in open, honest ways, but also starting to have your own conversations with colleagues and friends starts to shift that shame, right?
And allows you to start to heal and grow and change around money. So. To that end, you know, I have my podcast, the Money Skills for Therapist podcast that folks are welcome to check out where we talk about the practical and emotional sides of money. I have coaching conversations on there where I coach listeners or graduates from my program about money which is really powerful.
And then I also have a masterclass called the Four Step Framework. To getting your private practice finances in order where you can learn more about my approach and what I do, and money skills for therapists, which is my course for solo practitioners. Mm-hmm. And that's how you get your, your invite to that course as well.
So, money, nuts and bolts.com is my website. So if you go there, you'll see, you'll see my courses, the group practice, the solo, you'll see the masterclass, you'll see the podcast and, you know, just immerse yourself in this. Let let the silence around this start to fall away. It feels so much better when money is not a, a burden.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. Yeah. And we'll have links in the show notes and show summary for all of this. And Linzy, I'm so glad we connected and hopefully get you back on here before too long. Wonderful.
Linzy Bonham: Thank you so much for having me, Gordon.